Franciscan Duo Lead “gay And Lesbian Catholics” Gathering

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='prose' post='1501749' date='Apr 17 2008, 01:04 PM']To be honest, I believe it is because there are not a lot of gay people beating down the doors to get into traditional, orthodox churches. Anyone can build a ministry for them, but will they come? I think the gays who want to be involved are truly few and far between.[/quote]

Well... traditional, orthodox churches tend to be very beautiful... and gay people do appreciate beauty.

[quote name='prose' post='1501749' date='Apr 17 2008, 01:04 PM']In our Archdiocese, we run the Courage program. It is very well advertised, and in the ENTIRE Archdiocese, we have only had 3-4 men (never women) who wanted to be involved.

Now, let's say every parish dutifully set up a Courage program. Got staff trained, etc. etc.... Now, is it better to run 100 programs, where only 3 have one person each show up, or to have a more central source like the Archdiocesan office where all three can meet?[/quote]

Why does it have to be some official Archdiocesan deal? Advertising can get the word out, but without personal invitations, people rarely show up (as you've seen). Of course, one problem is they already know what Courage is about and if they aren't already at the point of desiring to live a chaste life in accordance with Church teaching, it's ruled out from the get go.

It doesn't seem prudent for every parish to host a Courage program, but those in neighborhoods with more gay/lesbian residents should be offering it. Of course, tend to be the more liberal parishes, so maybe it comes down to hosting at someone's house in the area (which is probably a better idea anyway that being on church property). But at any rate, at the parish/local level it's usually easier to build relationships and personally invite people. In my mind, that would be the best way to start out.

I don't know how strong these three men are in their faith and lifestyle, but maybe they could be sent out to their parishes to form more Courage groups. Maybe each of them draws in 3-4 more... and keep going from there.

Edited April 17, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[farglefeezlebut]

[quote name='prose' post='1501749' date='Apr 17 2008, 06:04 PM']To be honest, I believe it is because there are not a lot of gay people beating down the doors to get into traditional, orthodox churches. Anyone can build a ministry for them, but will they come? I think the gays who want to be involved are truly few and far between.

In our Archdiocese, we run the Courage program. It is very well advertised, and in the ENTIRE Archdiocese, we have only had 3-4 men (never women) who wanted to be involved.

Now, let's say every parish dutifully set up a Courage program. Got staff trained, etc. etc.... Now, is it better to run 100 programs, where only 3 have one person each show up, or to have a more central source like the Archdiocesan office where all three can meet?[/quote]

First of all, I think it's judgmental to make a statement all the gay Catholics in the world on the basis of the gay Catholics in your parish.

Secondly, it may be that there are [i]lots[/i] of gays in your parish who want to go to traditional, orthodox churches, but who don't want to admit that they're gay, either because they're afraid of people judging them on the basis of their disorder, or because they're afraid of liberals trying to browbeat them into acting on their inclinations, or because they just don't think it's anyone else's business, or for some other reason.

Thirdly, since when did we only share the gospel with those who wanted to hear it? If we did that, there wouldn't be much of a church at all.

I agree that it's probably not the best to have expensive programmes if people aren't even going to show up. However, there are lots of things that can be done cheaply. The internet is a great place for this kind of outreach, because it gives people anonymity. People don't have to show their faces or give their names.

[prose]

[quote name='farglefeezlebut' post='1501882' date='Apr 17 2008, 01:38 PM']First of all, I think it's judgmental to make a statement all the gay Catholics in the world on the basis of the gay Catholics in your parish.[/quote]

If you read again, I was referring to my entire Archdiocese, not my individual parish.

[quote]Secondly, it may be that there are [i]lots[/i] of gays in your parish who want to go to traditional, orthodox churches, but who don't want to admit that they're gay, either because they're afraid of people judging them on the basis of their disorder, or because they're afraid of liberals trying to browbeat them into acting on their inclinations, or because they just don't think it's anyone else's business, or for some other reason.[/quote]

So why would just setting up a ministry in the traditional parishes bring them out?

[quote]Thirdly, since when did we only share the gospel with those who wanted to hear it? If we did that, there wouldn't be much of a church at all.[/quote]

I am not saying we should not have ministries, I was merely pointing out that in my Archdiocese, we have tried programs, and we are simply not getting turnout. It was being specifically asked why traditional parishes don't have these ministries running. I am suggesting it is because, in my area, gay people, as a whole, have not shown any interest in being involved in these ministries. Am I suggesting that gay people shouldn't be evangelized to? Not at all.

[quote]I agree that it's probably not the best to have expensive programmes if people aren't even going to show up. However, there are lots of things that can be done cheaply. The internet is a great place for this kind of outreach, because it gives people anonymity. People don't have to show their faces or give their names.[/quote]

Again, the question was not about that. It was about why do traditional, orthodox parishes not having ministries.

[prose]

And to be clear, I was in no way suggesting that they are only 3-4 (practicing or not) gay men who claim to be Catholic in my Archdiocese.

I was suggesting that simply setting up ministries and programs are not the way to go here. The response simply is not there. I don't think we should give up either. I just think that there has to be a better way to evangelize.

Edited April 17, 2008 by prose

[mortify]

Any historian care to address this:

[color="#0000FF"]"As for homosexual unions, “I don’t think the Church is going to deal with gay and lesbian marriages, but in its history and those who have done research on this, the Catholic Church and other Christian churches like the Orthodox church, have in fact in history blessed same-gender unions as spiritual bondings, and there are saints who have had very committed relationships.”"[/color]

[Socrates]

[quote name='mortify' post='1502241' date='Apr 17 2008, 09:34 PM']Any historian care to address this:

[color="#0000FF"]"As for homosexual unions, “I don’t think the Church is going to deal with gay and lesbian marriages, but in its history and those who have done research on this, the Catholic Church and other Christian churches like the Orthodox church, have in fact in history blessed same-gender unions as spiritual bondings, and there are saints who have had very committed relationships.”"[/color][/quote]
It's bullsh*t.

Edited April 18, 2008 by Socrates

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='mortify' post='1502241' date='Apr 17 2008, 11:34 PM']Any historian care to address this:

[color="#0000FF"]"As for homosexual unions, “I don’t think the Church is going to deal with gay and lesbian marriages, but in its history and those who have done research on this, the Catholic Church and other Christian churches like the Orthodox church, have in fact in history blessed same-gender unions as spiritual bondings, and there are saints who have had very committed relationships.”"[/color][/quote]

Yeah, he's talking about the Adelphopoiia Rite that you can actually still receive in the Eastern Churches. It's not a sacrament, but a blessing of two people who share a strong friendship and spiritual bond. Notice the Greek root "adelphos," also in Philadelpiha, which means "brotherly love." To claim this rite means anything sexual expresses complete ignorance about the Greek language.

[BeenaBobba]

Sounds pretty fishy to me.

[BeenaBobba]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1502400' date='Apr 18 2008, 01:07 AM']Yeah, he's talking about the Adelphopoiia Rite that you can actually still receive in the Eastern Churches. It's not a sacrament, but a blessing of two people who share a strong friendship and spiritual bond. Notice the Greek root "adelphos," also in Philadelpiha, which means "brotherly love." To claim this rite means anything sexual expresses complete ignorance about the Greek language.[/quote]

Yeah, that's what I thought. There's just no way that the Catholic and Orthodox Churches ever sanctioned gay unions.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='prose' post='1501975' date='Apr 17 2008, 06:02 PM']And to be clear, I was in no way suggesting that they are only 3-4 (practicing or not) gay men who claim to be Catholic in my Archdiocese.

I was suggesting that simply setting up ministries and programs are not the way to go here. The response simply is not there. I don't think we should give up either. I just think that there has to be a better way to evangelize.[/quote]

Well, you've done a lot more than I have, but it's something that's just recently started to tug on my heart recently.

I know one guy who is Catholic and struggles greatly with the Church teaching. He's also sexually active and I think for him it's a trust issue: uncertainty that the Church can truly be trusted on this. Last year I accidently ran into a friend from high school who had since come out of the closet. We have a few good conversations about Christianity and the orthodox/liberal divide. And I also have a friend at work who grew up in the 60s and seems very much attached to that decade. He lives with his partner. They're fun people to hang out with, and he even expresses interest in visiting a nearby convent. It's obvious he's really hurting though and searching for fulfillment.

So I look at my two younger friends and they seem so carefree and I look at this guy who feels so empty inside. I can't help but think their lifestyle will lead them down the same lonely road.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='BeenaBobba' post='1502403' date='Apr 18 2008, 01:09 AM']Yeah, that's what I thought. There's just no way that the Catholic and Orthodox Churches ever sanctioned gay unions.[/quote]

I think they also argue that it was a way for the Church to bless such unions in an "underground" kind of way, but obviously the sacrament of Marriage is something that cannot be changed, and if it can be redefined, we can redefine everything. Then what's the point?

[littlesister]

Well said, LouisvilleFan. Thanks. It is not for us to judge.

[BeenaBobba]

[quote name='littlesister' post='1502434' date='Apr 18 2008, 02:03 AM']Well said, LouisvilleFan. Thanks. It is not for us to judge.[/quote]

Yes, I agree.

[Kitty]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1502329' date='Apr 17 2008, 11:04 PM']It's bullsh*t.[/quote]

You know, a Catholic message board is the last place I would expect to hear stuff like this

[johnnydigit]

i can see where he might make some sense, but like with the saints, it comes down to obedience. did he receive any direct orders from his superior or bishop?