dairygirl4u2c Posted April 21, 2008 Author Share Posted April 21, 2008 i still don't think "bad consequences" was that poorly defined. i think the ocntext i wrote it in indicated that i didn't think infringing on human dignity was a bad consequence. but anyway. suffering should be eliminated because God probably does not enjoy us suffering or think it necessary, completely. There may be good things that can come of it, but like giving glory to God when a blind man see as Jesus says. but, i inherently simply don't think God thinks we should suffer. the world is full of bad stuff medically and physically etc that we as humans fix. inhernet dignity of a human is a consideration but i simply don't think it is being infringed, but in fact respected and glorifed by us with our God given power preventing God's creatres from needless and unjust suffering. looks like we'll just have to agree to disagree as to the human dignity stuff. i'd also point out... if the bad consequences are very very small, then how is that much different than guinea pig humans in other regards? i don't think it's much different. but, anyways, my thread is mostly about speculating on this assuming there's no bad consequences so. now... some suffereing like laboring to become proficient at something, or any suffereing that exists can be meritorious. but needless suffereing not so much. yes, we culd get into what's needless and what's not. cause some people might think there's not point suffering to learn etc. i'd probably disagree, but i think i laid out the general enough parameters to say things like being born with diseases is not cool and should be fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 I suffer with pain everyday of my life, and barring a miracle, will for the rest of my life. I don't think my suffering lessons the gift of my life. My husband's great-grandmother and mother both had schizophrenia, and he was diagnosed at the age of 30 with it also. If there had been a test for it in vitro, I guess his mother could have aborted him. That would have been a bummer for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JesusIsMySuperHero Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 [quote name='Paphnutius' post='1505592' date='Apr 21 2008, 11:48 AM']Perhaps, however, it would be easier to start with a question: Why do you think that suffering ought to be eliminated?[/quote] Actually, this may surprise many here, I don't want to do anything to bring suffering to an end. Right now, suffering is a consequence of our sinful natures. To 'correct' genes to lessen suffering of others is wrong. If God wants to make blind men see, he will. If God wants deaf children to hear, he will. Man shouldn't be involved, because the more we get involved, the less room God has to work in. Men, in our infinite wisdom, think they can make a world better than God has, then let them, and they will reap the consequences of their actions. Remember the old proverb, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I am kinda reminded about I am Legend. A woman and her researchers find a cure for cancer, a cure far more deadly than cancer, kills billions, mutates most of the suvivors, and there are only pockets of hope through out the world. The road to hell for sure. That could happen, if we don't start thinking, God made the world the way it is, and we shouldn't mess with it. Remember, plagues and famine are suppose to kill 1/4 of all human life. Is the I am Legend plague in our future? Time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 [quote name='Paphnutius' post='1505592' date='Apr 21 2008, 11:48 AM']I would say that God is also immanent to creation. He is both transcendent and immanent. Please correct me if I am wrong, but are you saying that there is a dichotomy between human actions and what is natural? Is it not possible to say that human actions and free will are a part of the "processes that God sent in motion?" I asked for a more precise definition because one of the bad consequences could be losing sight of our humanity and dependence upon God. This is not necessarily physiological, so I sought clarification. Perhaps, however, it would be easier to start with a question: Why do you think that suffering ought to be eliminated?[/quote] pap what a great surprise to see your name around again! I look forward to reading more of your posts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted April 22, 2008 Author Share Posted April 22, 2008 (edited) just so people are clear, i am not advocating aborting or killing after birth etc, as some people are saying. just picking what sperm fertilizes what, or manipulating the genes etc. "if God wants us to see, he will" is the kind of stuff that people who were against medicine said, or things that involve guinea pigs, or hybridzation of plants and animcals etc. this arguemnt isn't that strong, in my opinion. unless it's connect with the inherent value that we simply shouldn't mess with genes. standing alone that argument in quotes doesn't do a whole lot. but, an inherent value is important. also, i think pap was speaking to me and not jesusrocks... cause he had quoted me. Edited April 22, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JesusIsMySuperHero Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 [quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1506066' date='Apr 21 2008, 07:33 PM']just so people are clear, i am not advocating aborting or killing after birth etc, as some people are saying. just picking what sperm fertilizes what, or manipulating the genes etc.[/quote] That is completely wrong! As a born again believer who understand that the world is already Very Good, though stained by sin, any picking and choosing of what sperm fertilizes what egg is completely wrong. dairy, I am going to throw the gloves off. Are you really a Christian? If you can't accept how God has created the creation, than go ask him to fix it! Don't spread anymore rebellious, Satan spawned Eugenics ideas here! Do you want to be one of the people Jesus says, I made everything very good, how much better did you want it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 [quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1506001' date='Apr 21 2008, 07:22 PM']suffering should be eliminated because God probably does not enjoy us suffering or think it necessary, completely. There may be good things that can come of it, but like giving glory to God when a blind man see as Jesus says. but, i inherently simply don't think God thinks we should suffer. the world is full of bad stuff medically and physically etc that we as humans fix. inhernet dignity of a human is a consideration but i simply don't think it is being infringed, but in fact respected and glorifed by us with our God given power preventing God's creatres from needless and unjust suffering.[/quote]I think one ought to note that God Himself suffered on the Cross. I hope that it did not sound as though I think God enjoys our suffering, but that suffering is often an instrument of grace as it traditionally has been. In [i]De Veritate[/i], St. Anselm makes an interesting point that whatever is right now is as it ought to be, for God permits it to exist. This does not mean that what exists now exists in its final or ideal state. Also, while we do attempt to eliminate a lot of suffering as a society (social programs as well as medicinal advances), one ought to be aware of motivations and intentions. If one is eliminating suffering simply for the sake of being relieved, then I think that something is awry. Remember, that the good of an action comes from the end, the means, and the intention. Evil is from any defect among these. [quote]now... some suffereing like laboring to become proficient at something, or any suffereing that exists can be meritorious. but needless suffereing not so much. yes, we culd get into what's needless and what's not. cause some people might think there's not point suffering to learn etc. i'd probably disagree, but i think i laid out the general enough parameters to say things like being born with diseases is not cool and should be fixed.[/quote]While we would likely disgaree on what is needless and what have you, I think that it is the sufferer who largely decides what is needless and what is not. rkwright, it is good to see you too! jesusismysuperhero, I am sorry if it sounded like that question was directed to you, but thank you for answering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JesusIsMySuperHero Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 [quote name='Paphnutius' post='1506088' date='Apr 21 2008, 07:53 PM']jesusismysuperhero, I am sorry if it sounded like that question was directed to you, but thank you for answering. [/quote] Hey, I know it wasn't really directed at me, but I can't stand any kind of thinly vialed evil ideas. The fear of the Lord is to hate (don't hate, appreciate) evil, and I can't stand thinking about is it okay to mess with God's creation. The people who think they can create something better are probably going to unleash a plague that will kill 1/4 of the people of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 [quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1506104' date='Apr 21 2008, 09:10 PM']Hey, I know it wasn't really directed at me, but I can't stand any kind of thinly vialed evil ideas.[/quote] "Thinly vialed evil ideas?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JesusIsMySuperHero Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 [quote name='Paphnutius' post='1506107' date='Apr 21 2008, 08:13 PM'] "Thinly vialed evil ideas?"[/quote] Whenever people talk about 'eradicating' genetic diseases, it is all about Eugenics. What diary is really saying is she is for Eugenics. I don't like that. She is present sugar coated poison. Tastes sweet, but it is poison and will kill people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoosieranna Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 [quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1506074' date='Apr 21 2008, 07:38 PM']That is completely wrong! As a born again believer who understand that the world is already Very Good, though stained by sin, any picking and choosing of what sperm fertilizes what egg is completely wrong. dairy, I am going to throw the gloves off. Are you really a Christian? If you can't accept how God has created the creation, than go ask him to fix it! Don't spread anymore rebellious, Satan spawned Eugenics ideas here! Do you want to be one of the people Jesus says, I made everything [b]very good[/b], how much better did you want it?[/quote] emphasis mine I don't argue doctrine, and respect the rights of people to be literalists. That said, you keep using the same justification over and over. It was effective the first time. It is more efficacious to be able to prove your point using more than one argument. Yeah, creation is very good. What else have you got? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted April 22, 2008 Author Share Posted April 22, 2008 you're trying ot be so literalist, and i am playing your game jesusis... he said it was "very good" before the fall. after the fall, suffering etc came bc of sin. so, how are you using the "very good" argument necessarily if there's sin tainting it? i can see if you want to argue inhernetly wrong to mess with that stuff combined with if God wnts it to change then he would, but not because "very good" argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JesusIsMySuperHero Posted April 22, 2008 Share Posted April 22, 2008 [quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1506964' date='Apr 22 2008, 06:05 PM']you're trying ot be so literalist, and i am playing your game jesusis... he said it was "very good" before the fall. after the fall, suffering etc came bc of sin. so, how are you using the "very good" argument necessarily if there's sin tainting it? i can see if you want to argue inhernetly wrong to mess with that stuff combined with if God wnts it to change then he would, but not because "very good" argument.[/quote] Well lets go the historical argument then. Hitler was able to convince the German people to kill 6 million jews because he said they were the master race, and the jews were inferior. He also conducted experiments to ensure 'more fit' Germans would be born. All of these things are the same things you are discussing right now. So how are you any better than Hitler? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted April 22, 2008 Author Share Posted April 22, 2008 if you think killing people is the same as manipulating genes and choosing which sperm etc, then there's not much to discuss. i insist they are not the same but if you think they are then, well, more power to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JesusIsMySuperHero Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 By manipulating genes, you would have to pick who is going to provide those genes. By doing so, that would be Hitler's ultimate wonder dream. There were movies in the 1920s about this. Families who had 'less productive' members of society would be sterlized (therefore you decide which sperm and eggs get fertilized), while better individuals get to reproduce. Sounds nice, who who says which genes are bad, and which genes are good? Who gets to decide? What if it was forced on parents? What about their rights to raise a child they want, and not what the government wants? These ideas are old ideas, with new twists. Now we can determine which sperm gets to fertilize which egg, so we can eliminate suffering! Sorry, I don't by Eugenics nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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