The "born Gay" Hoax

[kujo]

[quote name='Scofizzle' post='1501060' date='Apr 16 2008, 06:01 PM']It is impossible for someone to be born with a gay gen or to be born gay.

If God if the creator of all and God is all good. And homosexuality is an evil. God cannot create what is evil.

Homosexuality must be a choice made by a good creature.[/quote]

I'm sorry. I don't mean to be rude, but your logic is infantile.

Pudding tastes good because Bill Cosby says so. Bill Cosby only speaks the truth.

See what I mean?

Edited April 16, 2008 by kujo

[Scofizzle]

[quote name='kujo' post='1501072' date='Apr 16 2008, 05:07 PM']I'm sorry. I don't mean to be rude, but your logic is infantile.

Pudding tastes good because Bill Cosby says so. Bill Cosby only speaks the truth.

See what I mean?[/quote]


It does not matter if it is infantile. The simplist logic can be truth. Take the 1st day of logic class example.

Socrates is a man.
Man is mortal.

Therfore, Scorates is mortal.

Fact, Fact, Logical conclusion. Whether it is basic or not has no bearing.

The Bill Cosby example (I know it was just an example) is not the same as my argument. The fact that pudding tastes good (which it does by the way) has nothing to do with Bill Cosb'y opinion of it. My premises are not based on what someone thinks of certain thing.

Anyways...the logic may be simple but the premises are fact. You may disagree with the premises (I don't know if you do or not) but that does not change the validity of the logic.

[kujo]

[quote name='Scofizzle' post='1501097' date='Apr 16 2008, 06:17 PM']It does not matter if it is infantile. The simplist logic can be truth. Take the 1st day of logic class example.

Socrates is a man.
Man is mortal.

Therfore, Scorates is mortal.

Fact, Fact, Logical conclusion. Whether it is basic or not has no bearing.

The Bill Cosby example (I know it was just an example) is not the same as my argument. The fact that pudding tastes good (which it does by the way) has nothing to do with Bill Cosb'y opinion of it. My premises are not based on what someone thinks of certain thing.

Anyways...the logic may be simple but the premises are fact. You may disagree with the premises (I don't know if you do or not) but that does not change the validity of the logic.[/quote]

I find your logic [b]overly[/b] simplistic. Sin is bad. God does not create sin, nor does He create humans [i]to[/i] sin; however, sin remains. Homosexuals are as loved and perfect as we are; however, as I have stated, their particular "brand" of sin is homosexual tendencies. And their are required to approach the cross of Christ with the same sorrow that we must, for our sins are as detestable as theirs.

That said, of course pudding is good. And Bill Cosby is good too. At least we can agree on that.

[goldenchild17]

If God does not create humans to sin, then why would he create humans with a perverted tendency in sex? Not only does he not create humans to sin, He also does not create temptation for them. How is creating someone as a homosexual but then commanding them to never engage in such activities not a major temptation?

[thessalonian]

First of all I have to say that we too often pose this as born gay vs. behavioral. There is evidence that mothers who are stressed can have babies with a tendancy toward homosexuality so it may be that some are "born gay" but it is not genetic. I also do, even with the evidence presented hold that there may be some who have genetic deficiencies that cause homosexuality that may be unknown. This does not make them normal. And then there is the case that I KNOW OF where people are lured in to the gay lifestyle, i.e. they choose it. They have low self esteem or have been abused and someone convinces them they are gay and may have been born that way. Point is it doesn't mater. We can cure genetic forms of cancer and diabetes. The claim seems to be if someone is "born gay" it is natural and perhaps even good and normal. I've heard the claim "God doesn't make abnormal". God doesn't but the fall allows it to happen. Now what I am leading up to is that regardless of whether somone is "born gay" or not it is abnormal and unnatural and Jesus Christ has the power to HEAL ALL OUR INFIRMITIES. God bless those who struggle with this. But the truth shall set them free. By his stripes we are healed.

God bless

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1501129' date='Apr 16 2008, 04:32 PM']Point is it doesn't mater. We can cure genetic forms of cancer and diabetes. The claim seems to be if someone is "born gay" it is natural and perhaps even good and normal. I've heard the claim "God doesn't make abnormal". God doesn't but the fall allows it to happen. Now what I am leading up to is that regardless of whether somone is "born gay" or not it is abnormal and unnatural and Jesus Christ has the power to HEAL ALL OUR INFIRMITIES. God bless those who struggle with this. But the truth shall set them free. By his stripes we are healed.

God bless[/quote]

I agree, except I wouldn't exactly equate homosexuality with the other diseases for the simple fact that the other diseases do not lead to severe sinful temptations, like homosexuality must necessarily do. But I agree that IF (and I'm not convinced of it, because God does not tempt us) IF homosexuality is genetic and we are born with it, then we must strive to look for a medical cure, because it just means that it is another defect that one can be born with, and we can try to find a remedy.

[thessalonian]

Certainly I wasn't trying to associate other genetic diseases with sin. The point was there may be multiple causes including a "gay gene" even if we have not found it and have refuted current claims of it. There may be a nymphomania gene for heterosexuals. It would still be sinful. I certainly was born with an attraction to more women than man wife. Does that refute monogamy? I sure hope not.

[goldenchild17]

yeah maybe. I still have a hard time believing that God would create someone with such a morally disordered orientation. But regardless, if He did, then it would have to be some sort of genetic disorder that can (hopefully) be medically treated.

[farglefeezlebut]

Do you believe that some people's personalities make them more susceptible than most to temptation towards pride? Or gluttony? Or heterosexual promiscuity? Or violence? Or impatience?

If you believe some people naturally have these weaknesses more than others, why is it so hard to believe that some people are naturally homosexual?

[Farsight one]

[quote name='Scofizzle' post='1501060' date='Apr 16 2008, 05:01 PM']It is impossible for someone to be born with a gay gen or to be born gay.

If God if the creator of all and God is all good. And homosexuality is an evil. God cannot create what is evil.

Homosexuality must be a choice made by a good creature.[/quote]But homosexuality is NOT an evil. Homosexual ACTIVITY is. For your logic to follow, it would have to appear that God is creating people in the ACT, and not simply with the orientation.

Creating a person gay would be no more evil than creating a person easily tempted by alcohol, or gambling, or extramarital sex. It is the act that is the sin.

[picchick]

I don't know about the gene thing but I think that some people have a natural tendency to be gay because they have some biological reason to be. However, I do not think that all gay people in this world are so.

We have to understand that there are some babies who are born ambiguous. Although they try to choose a sex that is closest to the genetic sex, sometimes it is not possible. It is a very hard decision to make.

As far as creating a person gay, why could it not happen. Being gay is not the sin. It is the activity that is the sin. I was born and I am straight. I could still commit a sin of impurity but does that mean being created was sinful? I guess if you wanted to get into it further you can liken it to being born with a defect. The defect is not the sin.

[kujo]

[quote name='farglefeezlebut' post='1501205' date='Apr 16 2008, 07:04 PM']Do you believe that some people's personalities make them more susceptible than most to temptation towards pride? Or gluttony? Or heterosexual promiscuity? Or violence? Or impatience?

If you believe some people naturally have these weaknesses more than others, why is it so hard to believe that some people are naturally homosexual?[/quote]


[quote name='Farsight one' post='1501219' date='Apr 16 2008, 07:10 PM']But homosexuality is NOT an evil. Homosexual ACTIVITY is. For your logic to follow, it would have to appear that God is creating people in the ACT, and not simply with the orientation.

Creating a person gay would be no more evil than creating a person easily tempted by alcohol, or gambling, or extramarital sex. It is the act that is the sin.[/quote]


[quote name='picchick' post='1501346' date='Apr 16 2008, 09:11 PM']I don't know about the gene thing but I think that some people have a natural tendency to be gay because they have some biological reason to be. However, I do not think that all gay people in this world are so.

We have to understand that there are some babies who are born ambiguous. Although they try to choose a sex that is closest to the genetic sex, sometimes it is not possible. It is a very hard decision to make.

As far as creating a person gay, why could it not happen. Being gay is not the sin. It is the activity that is the sin. I was born and I am straight. I could still commit a sin of impurity but does that mean being created was sinful? I guess if you wanted to get into it further you can liken it to being born with a defect. The defect is not the sin.[/quote]

[img]http://www.moviecritic.com.au/userimages/user624_1168917590.jpg[/img]

[size=6]WORD[/size]

[Socrates]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1501219' date='Apr 16 2008, 05:10 PM']But homosexuality is NOT an evil. Homosexual ACTIVITY is. For your logic to follow, it would have to appear that God is creating people in the ACT, and not simply with the orientation.

Creating a person gay would be no more evil than creating a person easily tempted by alcohol, or gambling, or extramarital sex. It is the act that is the sin.[/quote]
Homosexual tendencies, if unwanted, are not in themselves sinful, but are an inclination toward moral evil, and must be regarded as disordered.

As Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (currently the Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI) has officially stated:
[quote]In the discussion which followed the publication of the Declaration, however, an overly benign interpretation was given to the homosexual condition itself, some going so far as to call it neutral, or even good. [b]Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder.[/b][/quote][url="http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_df86ho.htm"]On the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons[/url]
Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith
October 1, 1986

As I've said plenty of times before, God (who is All Good, and can do no evil) is NOT the author of inclinations toward objective moral evil.
Such disordered inclinations toward immorality are the result of sin, not of God's creation.

God "creates people gay" no more than He creates people as drunkards, wastrals, or fornicators.

This said, there is no concrete evidence that anyone is "born gay," so such speculation is ridiculous and pointless.

Edited April 17, 2008 by Socrates

[kujo]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1501371' date='Apr 16 2008, 09:55 PM']This said, there is no concrete evidence that anyone is "born gay," so such speculation is ridiculous and pointless.[/quote]

So, until something has been empirically proven, there's no use discussing it?

[CrossCuT]

[size=1]Homosexuality deals entirely with attraction, emotion, and behavior. There is nothing physically distinct about a homosexual person that could be contrasted to a heterosexual person.

No one can be BORN gay because being gay is nothing something programmable by genes. Genes only program physical things where, as I have stated, homosexuality is a developmental issue.
A person may however acquire these homosexual thoughts, tendencies, etc because of the way they develop, the way their brain chemically responds to stimuli around them as they grow.
It COULD happen in the womb (as someone has stated already) by stress caused by the mother. Those chemical reactions pass to the baby and may cause developmental damage to the brain.

However the brain is so complex and beautiful that there is no way as of yet to know what causes the disordered way of thinking . All we can do is pray that these people who suffer with it can overcome it.
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