Traditions And Customs, Etc.

[Chiquitunga]

Guys, I don't think anyone is giving an unrealistic portrait of St. Therese, or really focusing on extraordinary penances here. This was more the argument in that thread from last year, the scandal of the monastic life or something -- though those were definitely great points CA and alicemary. It's comforting to hear that St. Therese later winced at some of the statements she made - I certainly do!

To offer a little humor, here's a little comic, the first of the series, from the Immaculate Heart Messenger Magazine (Oct-Dec '97 issue) which was a special Carmelite edition on the founding of the Alexandria, SD Carmel from Buffalo.
[center]
[img]http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/6154/hpscands842021541727zv5.jpg[/img][/center]
I think that quote from St. Teresa is really relevant here. I first heard it from Reverend Mother and the sisters at the Carmel of the Holy Cross in Iron Mountain, MI.

[quote][b]A good Carmelite eats well, sleeps well, and laughs well. -- St. Teresa[/b] [/quote]

Edited April 21, 2008 by Margaret Clare

[praying4carmel]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1503347' date='Apr 19 2008, 02:34 PM']... when I mentioned this to my spiritual director at the time, he said, "Doesn't sound like they leave much room for the Holy Spirit." so I was turned off them by what he said. Now I am thinking that perhaps she just tried to let me know these things so that I wouldn't be shocked when I went for a visit. I have found that priests often do not understand the Carmelite way. Even priests that came to our monastery would say things that made me realize that they just didn't have a clue what life was like behind the grille - not their fault since it is impossible to really understand without living it, I think.[/quote]

How true! And How Many times did Teresa and John warn about Confessors!

[AccountDeleted]

Margaret Clare - that cartoon is well known to Carmelites - thanks for sharing it here. Yes, I think that Carmelites are very practical on the whole.

A lot of good points have been made by everyone but the sad thing for me is to see spiritual fervour being confused with mental illness. It is true that there are young girls who are anorexic and who cut themselves and do all manner of horrible things to themselves because of emotional and/or psychological problems. That is probably why so many American religious communities do a psychological evaluation on each potential candidate (it doesn't seem to be so much the norm in Europe yet).

Hopefully, anyone who is suffering from a need to hurt themselves because of a psychological or mental or emotional illness, will be identified long before they actually enter a community. I know that it still does happen however, so that is why no physical penances should be commenced without the knowledge and permission of both the Prioress and the spiritual director.

That being said, there is still a place for idealism and passion in religious life. Romanticizing? Well, since when did being a romantic become a bad thing? As with everything, there has to be a balance between passion and common sense but what else is it that gets athletes through their own grueling practices to achieve incredible things? What is it that allows artists and dancers and musicians to push themselves to the limit to become incredible performers? I used to work with a ballet company, and when the dancers would take off their toe shoes, sometimes their feet would be bloody from all the practice! They didn't see this as masochistic or sick in any way. They just considered this part of the price they paid to become prima ballerinas! The thing is that the desire to suffer for Christ is still a valid concept - but as with most things, this needs to be tempered with comon sense and in the case of religious communities, obedience to the superior and spiritual director. Not all souls are called to the same thing but that doesn't mean that those who feel this call should be made to think they are sick in some way.

A certain amount of romantic zeal is what pushes people towards perfection - even if we never quite reach it! St Teresa called her book The Way of Perfection because her whole point was that we need to strive for that goal, even if we are only human and unworthy. Let's face it, we are never going to be "worthy" of what God gives us, but that doesn't mean we don't want to work towards this goal. Yes, He loves us anyway, unworthy sinners though we be. So our little efforts are to say "thank you" for the gift already given.

And once a person actually enters religious life, a lot of the romantic notions do get straightened out by the reality of the ordinariness of the everyday life. And then when a person starts to consider unusual penances, usually they come to the conclusion that it doesn't make sense to do something extraordinary while they are still having problems just doing the ordinary!

What inspires me though is when someone, anyone, feels such a love for Jesus that they want to do incredible things for Him. Sure, we can bring each other back down to earth again with all kinds of "reality checks" but let's not be so earthbound that we forget there is a supernatural side to loving God as well. Even if we are only little sparrows, it doesn't hurt to dream of flying with the eagles!

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1505634' date='Apr 21 2008, 07:41 PM']Margaret Clare - that cartoon is well known to Carmelites - thanks for sharing it here. Yes, I think that Carmelites are very practical on the whole.

A lot of good points have been made by everyone but the sad thing for me is to see spiritual fervour being confused with mental illness. It is true that there are young girls who are anorexic and who cut themselves and do all manner of horrible things to themselves because of emotional and/or psychological problems. That is probably why so many American religious communities do a psychological evaluation on each potential candidate (it doesn't seem to be so much the norm in Europe yet).

Hopefully, anyone who is suffering from a need to hurt themselves because of a psychological or mental or emotional illness, will be identified long before they actually enter a community.[/quote]

Sometimes mental illness isn't obvious or easy to identify. And, of course, there are plenty of people who have [i]predispositions[/i] to mental health problems that never actually become full-blown illnesses - they manifest in the person's life in other subtle ways. I have a close friend who hurts herself as a way of appeasing God. A hundred years ago, that would have been hailed as the holy thing to do in certain quarters - especially as she is a devoted Catholic who is eager to do what is right. She has passion and love and faith by the bucketful.

She's also mentally ill. That doesn't detract from her friendship with Jesus in the slightest. Why should it? It's quite possible to be mentally ill AND on fire with faith and hope and love. But it does mean that she has to learn to recognise when she is using some austerity or other as a perverse means of self-comfort, in order to assuage a particular concern; and when she is doing simple penance in the peace of God. It's a difficult distinction for her to make, and I think that many people struggle with it - including people who are totally healthy in the mind. It is not easy to learn that the goodness of God and the things that give us an emotional 'buzz' (even if that 'buzz' consists of an aching back and oh-so-poetic feelings of spiritual desolation) are usually distinct.

[quote]That being said, there is still a place for idealism and passion in religious life. Romanticizing? Well, since when did being a romantic become a bad thing?[/quote]

Suffering is not good in and of itself. The Church does not teach this and has never taught it. As soon as suffering is made to look desirable, which is what romanticisation does to it, we are in danger of losing sight of what we believe. We may also start to elevate suffering above everything else in life, attaching a disproportionate amount of value to it.

In Marcel Berstein's book [i]Nuns[/i] there is an anecdote about a young girl who entered a Welsh Carmel only to return home disillusioned the very next day, without even unpacking her bags. The reason? She had arrived to find the nuns sitting down to a hearty supper when she had expected to live on nothing but the Host. I think that similar expectations live inside all of us, no matter whether they manifest as a desire for a graceful habit with a beautiful starched wimple and long veil or the idea of humbly kneeling down to speak to an abbess, eyes bowed in perfect reverence. And then the habit starts to feel hot and scratchy and the abbess gets a bit sharp-tempered one day, so the house of cards comes tumbling down.

You have far more experience in Carmel than I have, Annie, so I respect your insider's knowledge, but I can't see how such romanticisation can be a good thing. This isn't the same as working hard to excel at something. It's creating an imaginary version of the religious life that doesn't really exist.

[quote]As with everything, there has to be a balance between passion and common sense but what else is it that gets athletes through their own grueling practices to achieve incredible things? What is it that allows artists and dancers and musicians to push themselves to the limit to become incredible performers? I used to work with a ballet company, and when the dancers would take off their toe shoes, sometimes their feet would be bloody from all the practice! They didn't see this as masochistic or sick in any way. They just considered this part of the price they paid to become prima ballerinas![/quote]

I love ballet very much, but I know that part of the price paid by a professional dancer can include anything from ingrained toenails to deformed feet to serious cases of anorexia nervosa. I knew an ex-dancer who couldn't walk properly any more - she waddled like a duck. She didn't mind it and was happy that she had had the chance to devote herself to her craft - the pleasure of dancing onstage outweighed the difficulties presented by not being able to move with anywhere like the same grace and ease once she had retired (at thirty-one, as her feet would no longer permit her to work). I am not sure that this is the best analogy for religious life, though, as there is no other way to become a prima ballerina than to grit your teeth and stuff the toes of your pointe shoes with lambswool. There [i]are[/i] other ways to become a saint. Passion for God can be expressed through a healthy, nourished body and there is nothing about sleeping on ridges or wearing a spiked belt on Fridays that makes you any more holy than the nun who enjoys her sleep and thanks God for it sincerely in the morning, or whose Friday penance consists of sitting in silence and gazing at a crucifix. I think that loving God in these simple, quiet ways that attract no attention and win no admiration is the incredible thing.

[Laudem Gloriae]

I think what is also missing from these talks about saints and the sufferings and penances they did, is that these very saints were picked by God before hand! How many people are favored by God at the age of 3, 4, or 7? like St. Therese and St. Faustina? These saints and many others had visions or apparitions or some kind of encounter with God while very young. I can't remember exactly by St. Faustina saw or encountered God in some way in her back yard (?) at or near a tree.

St. Teresa of the Andes had an experience with Jesus at her first communion and when she told her mother, the mother was obviously surprised and to keep Juanita (St. Teresa) from getting a big head and maybe feeling superior about it, she told her daughter that Jesus speaks to all children at their first communion. Granted God probably does speak to us all but for the great majority of us it goes undetected!

So these saints - like the ones mentioned above - and others like St. Catherine of Siena, St. Margaret Mary and countless others (whether well known saints or not), are very special souls in mind, heart, body, soul, mentally, spiritually, emotionally, etc. that God has nurtured and cultivated to bear and carry His cross and sufferings for poor sinners and priests/religious, etc. from the start.

Was it Sr. Josepha who took the burden of the pain of the passion and carrying of the cross on her shoulder for a while so Jesus could rest for awhile and then He would come back to her and take His cross back and in the mean time she would suffer all the pains He had. I, too, would love to do that for Him who I love more than anything, but I know I couldn't begin too unless He did major work on my soul, pain levels, mind, etc!!!! But I can suffer in joy the crosses He does send me.

What is that saying about how we should accept the crosses Jesus sends to us and NOT go looking for ready made crosses or the ones WE want to pick because the ones God gives us are the best and the best suited to us.

Also St. Therese had a change of heart on physical penances when a young novice had gotten ill and she was ill due to an infection caused by wearing an iron chain and the saint told the novice not to wear it and then had to answer to Mother Marie Gonzague's ire when she found out that Therese told the novice to stop the penance that she (Gonzague) told her to carry out. Therese told the novice something like the big penances aren't for us who are little souls, or something. She had told her that she too used to wear these chains.

I am currently reading the book "The Life and Revelations of St. Gertrude the Great" and in it she wrote that Jesus told her that souls that had the good intention to do extraordinary things or penances or sufferings but couldn't due to a superior or spiritual director saying "no" or the souls themselves couldn't due to health, that God took these good intentions as if the soul HAD done these great penances and sufferings. So even if we can't take on great sufferings, pain and such like so many saints, blesseds, venerables and other great souls, just our desire too pleases Our Lord Jesus very much.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1505686' date='Apr 21 2008, 12:33 PM']Sometimes mental illness isn't obvious or easy to identify. And, of course, there are plenty of people who have [i]predispositions[/i] to mental health problems that never actually become full-blown illnesses - they manifest in the person's life in other subtle ways. I have a close friend who hurts herself as a way of appeasing God. A hundred years ago, that would have been hailed as the holy thing to do in certain quarters - especially as she is a devoted Catholic who is eager to do what is right. She has passion and love and faith by the bucketful.

She's also mentally ill. That doesn't detract from her friendship with Jesus in the slightest. Why should it? It's quite possible to be mentally ill AND on fire with faith and hope and love. But it does mean that she has to learn to recognise when she is using some austerity or other as a perverse means of self-comfort, in order to assuage a particular concern; and when she is doing simple penance in the peace of God. It's a difficult distinction for her to make, and I think that many people struggle with it - including people who are totally healthy in the mind. It is not easy to learn that the goodness of God and the things that give us an emotional 'buzz' (even if that 'buzz' consists of an aching back and oh-so-poetic feelings of spiritual desolation) are usually distinct.[/quote]

CA - you make a lot of really good points and I don't dispute the validity of being careful about mental illness. I was a psychiatric nurse and worked in prisons as well as hospitals - in the days before meds became so effective for conditions like schizophrenia and OCD. But just because some people are not able to discern between a genuine gift of self to God and a need to hurt themselves, doesn't make wanting to suffer for Christ any less valid.

I think that you and I are concerned about different things but that both of these are equally valid. There is a need to be careful about over-zealousness (especially in those who are not mentally healthy) but there is an equal need (in my opinion) to encourage and support a passionate love for Jesus, which can be manifested in a sincere desire to offer suffering to Christ. This does NOT mean that I am encouraging self-mutilation or masochism. I think one of the problems in this day and age is the fact that so many people have been led into cults and other activities that perpetuate self-destructive behaviors and this causes a natural hesitation to endorse anything that might appear too "over the top".

Let me address some of your statements individually…

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1505686' date='Apr 21 2008, 12:33 PM']Suffering is not good in and of itself. The Church does not teach this and has never taught it. As soon as suffering is made to look desirable, which is what romanticisation does to it, we are in danger of losing sight of what we believe. We may also start to elevate suffering above everything else in life, attaching a disproportionate amount of value to it.[/quote]

You are right - wanting to suffer for the sake of suffering is not a valid act of love. But having the "desire" to suffer for Christ IS taught by the Church...
[i]
Rom. 8:18 - the sufferings of the present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. We thus have hope that any sufferings we or others endure, no matter how difficult, will pale in comparison to the life of eternal bliss that awaits us.

2 Cor. 1:5-7- if we share abundantly in Christ's sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort as well. If we unite our sufferings with His, we will be comforted by Him.

2 Cor. 4:11 - while we live we are always being given up to death for Jesus' sake so that His life may be manifested in our flesh. This proves the Catholic position that our sufferings on earth are united with Jesus in order to bring about Jesus' life in us.

Eph. 3:13 - Do not to lose heart over my sufferings for your glory. Our suffering also benefits others in the mystical body of Christ.

Phil. 1:29 - for the sake of Christ we are not only to believe in Him but also to suffer for His sake. Growing in holiness requires more than having faith in God and accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. We must also willfully embrace the suffering that befalls us as part of God's plan. Thus, Christ does not want our faith alone, but our faith in action which includes faith in suffering.

2 Thess. 1:5 - we may be made worthy of the kingdom of God for which we are suffering. This is because suffering causes us to turn to God and purifies us from sin.

2 Tim. 3:12 - all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. But this persecution unites us more closely to Jesus and repairs our relationship with God. .

Heb. 12:5-7 - do not lose courage when you are punished, for the Lord disciplines whom He loves. The Lord loves each one of us more than we love ourselves, and will only permit suffering if it brings about our salvation.

James 4:8-10 - we must purify our hearts and grieve, mourn and wail, changing our laughter into morning and joy to gloom.

1 Peter 5:10 - after we have suffered, the God of all grace will restore, establish and strengthen us. God promises us that our suffering will ultimately be followed by glory. [/i]

Are these apostles being overly romantic? I don’t think so. Even the Mass itself is offered as a “sacrifice” to God, where we unite ourselves to the suffering of Christ.

In fact, Catholic Online has this to say about suffering (the emphasis is mine).

[i]FRUITS OF SUFFERING
Your sufferings are forming you and leading you to be filled with the Holy Spirit, to be agents of God.
This is an important lesson because we live in a society that works desperately to avoid suffering at all costs. We will even kill instead of suffer. We will kill animals through animal experimentation and we will kill people, through abortion, euthanasia and the death penalty. Whatever it takes to avoid suffering we will do as a race. The more we work to avoid suffering the more worldly we become.
[b]Now this does not mean that we seek after suffering. We are not masochists. We do not have to be. It does mean that suffering is redemptive to others and to ourselves[/b]. [/i]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1505686' date='Apr 21 2008, 12:33 PM']In Marcel Berstein's book [i]Nuns[/i] there is an anecdote about a young girl who entered a Welsh Carmel only to return home disillusioned the very next day, without even unpacking her bags. The reason? She had arrived to find the nuns sitting down to a hearty supper when she had expected to live on nothing but the Host. I think that similar expectations live inside all of us, no matter whether they manifest as a desire for a graceful habit with a beautiful starched wimple and long veil or the idea of humbly kneeling down to speak to an abbess, eyes bowed in perfect reverence. And then the habit starts to feel hot and scratchy and the abbess gets a bit sharp-tempered one day, so the house of cards comes tumbling down.[/quote]

Absolutely TRUE! The day to day experiences are more suffering than anything we could possibly dream up in our romantic little brains - and this is where the true saints are made (witness that I did NOT pass the test). The little postulant who left because she didn't get to live on the Host isn't alone in her disappointments (although her case IS a bit extreme). I was hoping for more fasting and more poverty when I entered Carmel, but instead I found my sacrifices in eating when I didn't feel like it and working when I wanted to pray instead.

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1505686' date='Apr 21 2008, 12:33 PM']You have far more experience in Carmel than I have, Annie, so I respect your insider's knowledge, but I can't see how such romanticisation can be a good thing. This isn't the same as working hard to excel at something. It's creating an imaginary version of the religious life that doesn't really exist.[/quote]

Well, yes and no here. I had romantic notions that were dispelled by entering Carmel but that doesn’t mean that I think romanticism is totally useless. If human beings didn’t have romance in their souls, they wouldn’t believe that happy endings were possible. There can be too much romanticism, yes, but there can also be too much hard nosed reality. Let’s face it – there is absolutely no reason for any community to keep those floor length traditional habits in this day and age – but they invoke a sense of “belonging” to Jesus which is both romantic and inspiring. The habit I wore had an underskirt, an undervest, a long sleeved vest, a tunic, a scapular, a toque, an underveil, a day veil and a mantle. My head would get itchy but I couldn’t scratch it, my body would get hot but I couldn’t take off any of the vests without taking everything off due to the pins that are used to secure the scapular in place. The whole outfit is ridiculous! It doesn’t have any practical uses and has to be tucked up to do any real work. But not one of the nuns in my community wanted to change it! Romanticism? Yes. But every time I put it on and kissed the scapular and the veil, I would feel so close to Jesus and once it was on, I felt as if His arms were wrapped around me. So I admit it, I am a romantic at heart. I think that’s ok.

One of my favorite saints would be considered a definite mental case in this day and age. St Mary Magdalene de Pazzi would run through her convent shouting out "Love is not loved!" and would climb a ladder just to grab a crucifix to hug and kiss it. Talk about a true romantic! But you know what? There is room for pragmatists and romantics both. And just because a person is a romantic, doesn't mean they can't also see the practical side of things. Although I love the idea of suffering for Jesus, I am realistic enough to know that He isn't asking me to do injury to myself just for the sake of it. I think the whole issue here might be one of "degree". Sleeping on a hard bed does not appear to me to be an act of self-mutilation and if someone wants to do it - why not? Using the cilice or discipline until blood is drawn - now that is a different thing altogether, and does appear to be more an act of spiritual pride than one of love.


[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1505686' date='Apr 21 2008, 12:33 PM']I love ballet very much, but I know that part of the price paid by a professional dancer can include anything from ingrained toenails to deformed feet to serious cases of anorexia nervosa. I knew an ex-dancer who couldn't walk properly any more - she waddled like a duck. She didn't mind it and was happy that she had had the chance to devote herself to her craft - the pleasure of dancing onstage outweighed the difficulties presented by not being able to move with anywhere like the same grace and ease once she had retired (at thirty-one, as her feet would no longer permit her to work). I am not sure that this is the best analogy for religious life, though, as there is no other way to become a prima ballerina than to grit your teeth and stuff the toes of your pointe shoes with lambswool. There [i]are[/i] other ways to become a saint. Passion for God can be expressed through a healthy, nourished body and there is nothing about sleeping on ridges or wearing a spiked belt on Fridays that makes you any more holy than the nun who enjoys her sleep and thanks God for it sincerely in the morning, or whose Friday penance consists of sitting in silence and gazing at a crucifix. I think that loving God in these simple, quiet ways that attract no attention and win no admiration is the incredible thing.[/quote][i][/i]

Well, there are many examples of great artists or athletes suffering for their art/sport/craft etc.. and I am sure there are just as many examples of people who have damaged their bodies and had to retire or who did not succeed in achieving what they wanted, but does that mean that no one should even try?

Yes, there are many ways to be a saint – just as there are many different varieties of flowers. St Therese is always thought of in connection with roses. I decided that my flower would have to be a bougainvillea because it is basically considered a weed, and it has thorns as well! And just because there are so many different ways to be a saint, that means that the person who proceeds in “simple, quiet ways that attract no attention and win no admiration” is just as loved by God as the person who wants to do great things and suffer great hardships for God. One doesn’t make the other less valid as a path.

Now having said all that – and written a veritable novel in the process, I will state my point of view, which is that nothing at all is of any use at all unless it is done in love and with love and for love. St Paul told us that [i]“If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing.”[/i]

[gloriagurl]

I think personally that deliberately seeking austerities, the knob in the bed, the ridges in the plank, the discipline (abandoned by most Carmels), and the hairshirt (abandoned by the Carthusians), are childish and tend to spiritual pride.


I agree jkaands...espcially about spiritual pride....but for the record, Carthusians still wear the hairshirt. I have a very close friend who is ex-Carthusian (stayed for 7 years, only left a few years ago is now a priest elsewhere) and when I asked him about it he said 'YES' they still wear it - all the time - HOWEVER, he personally felt that it was not a terribly effective penance......because (at least for him) after a few months you don't even notice it's there and in fact, once he stepped into the shower with his on. In fact he has often said to me that there is great spiritual danger (I think the pride you speak of is what he means) in the "penances we choose" and the the "penances we DON'T choose are more likely to be the helpful ones.

[DiscerningSoul]

There are so many good penances one can do, such as say a chaplet when your not all up to it,goto extra Mass'es, go with out TV, walk to work, do laundry by hand and so much more.
One penance I do is kneel for an hour or at least thru the rosary, and I don't mean leaning back on your feet, full upright kneeling with no support, this is not easy and its not to painful but after an hour you feel good about saving souls!

Edited April 21, 2008 by DiscerningSoul

[Saint Therese]

I find this thread very interesting. I don't think the corporal penances practiced by the Littleton Carmel are extreme. Extreme to US, perhaps. But our culture is one of EXTREME over concern for bodily comfort. I think the penance are very similar to ones practiced by the original Teresian Carmelites. St. Teresa herself slept on a bed with a wooden block as a pillow. Also, in my opinion, it would not be completely correct to say that St. Therese was against penance. When the community took the discipline she hit herself as hard as possible, because she " didn't want to do anything by halves". Her spirituality, the Little Way, is very penetential when practiced according to her ideal.

[jkaands]

[quote name='gloriagurl' post='1505896' date='Apr 21 2008, 04:49 PM']I think personally that deliberately seeking austerities, the knob in the bed, the ridges in the plank, the discipline (abandoned by most Carmels), and the hairshirt (abandoned by the Carthusians), are childish and tend to spiritual pride.
I agree jkaands...espcially about spiritual pride....but for the record, Carthusians still wear the hairshirt. I have a very close friend who is ex-Carthusian (stayed for 7 years, only left a few years ago is now a priest elsewhere) and when I asked him about it he said 'YES' they still wear it - all the time - HOWEVER, he personally felt that it was not a terribly effective penance......because (at least for him) after a few months you don't even notice it's there and in fact, once he stepped into the shower with his on. In fact he has often said to me that there is great spiritual danger (I think the pride you speak of is what he means) in the "penances we choose" and the the "penances we DON'T choose are more likely to be the helpful ones.[/quote]

Thanks, GG

The use of the hairshirt may vary with the charterhouse. Or it may be optional.

Sad to say, there are only about 350 Carthusian monks left in the world, and I think the average age is high. About 75 nuns, who were only recently allowed(!) It may be in future that there will be more nuns than monks!


"Into Great Silence" is now available on netflix, in case there's anyone out there who hasn't seen it!

Edited April 22, 2008 by jkaands

[gloriagurl]

[quote name='jkaands' post='1506710' date='Apr 22 2008, 02:44 PM']Thanks, GG

The use of the hairshirt may vary with the charterhouse. Or it may be optional.

Sad to say, there are only about 350 Carthusian monks left in the world, and I think the average age is high. About 75 nuns, who were only recently allowed(!) It may be in future that there will be more nuns than monks!
"Into Great Silence" is now available on netflix, in case there's anyone out there who hasn't seen it![/quote]

jkaands,

Do you know if Carthusian nuns still receive the maniple and stole at profession? I know it was their practice prior to Vat II and I believe at least for a while afterward, but I've lost track.

[irishdancer]

As a dancer and an aspirant to a contemplative community I have followed the conversation on corporal mortification with interest and a little fear. Granted that I clearly am not called to the Carmelites or Poor Clares, I am now more than ever grateful for the opportunity to share life with the Nuns before applying. For me, I think going to bed before dark and waking for the midnight office will be adequate corporal discipline.

As for the discipline an athlete practices (and I have studied dance since I was 3), the passion is always carefully monitored and used as motivation by those who are developing the young dancer. Where there is no concern for the human who happens to be a dancer, great harm can be done. I am 24 in a few weeks and only for God would I give up the life I love so much.

One of the questions Mother asked me was if I could give as much to the religious life as I do to dance? I think she was speaking of the total oneheart/mind focus that is required when one's body and mind are one's instrument I said yes but I know it is only by God's grace. Hope this makes sense.

[jkaands]

[quote name='gloriagurl' post='1506767' date='Apr 22 2008, 02:55 PM']jkaands,

Do you know if Carthusian nuns still receive the maniple and stole at profession? I know it was their practice prior to Vat II and I believe at least for a while afterward, but I've lost track.[/quote]

i don't know, but this point has been mentioned on some forum I've read. Gemma might know. Search under Carthusian nuns on PH and Religious habit on yahoo, one of Gemma's groups, if you can.

My limited knowledge of Carthusians is gleaned from two books, An Infinity of Little House, which is excellent, and Sound of Silences, not as good, but moving, and, of course, Into Great Silence. You can get the books heavily discounted on amazon or bookfinder.com. The dd remains expensive, I am sure, but you can rent it on netflix, which has decreased its prices, apparently.

[jkaands]

[quote name='Saint Therese' post='1506087' date='Apr 21 2008, 07:53 PM']I find this thread very interesting. I don't think the corporal penances practiced by the Littleton Carmel are extreme. Extreme to US, perhaps. But our culture is one of EXTREME over concern for bodily comfort. I think the penance are very similar to ones practiced by the original Teresian Carmelites. St. Teresa herself slept on a bed with a wooden block as a pillow. Also, in my opinion, it would not be completely correct to say that St. Therese was against penance. When the community took the discipline she hit herself as hard as possible, because she " didn't want to do anything by halves". Her spirituality, the Little Way, is very penetential when practiced according to her ideal.[/quote]

Back to the Littleton Carmel. The remark I quoted is old, from when they entered their monastery, and from a lay source. Its source isn't authentic, and I think that there's a good chance the penance isn't being practiced now.

...are the Constitutions available to the public?

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='jkaands' post='1507231' date='Apr 22 2008, 10:56 PM']Back to the Littleton Carmel. The remark I quoted is old, from when they entered their monastery, and from a lay source. Its source isn't authentic, and I think that there's a good chance the penance isn't being practiced now.

...are the Constitutions available to the public?[/quote]


At Wolverhampton, we studied the Constitutions (the 1991s) daily and they covered such topics as charism, formation, elections etc. and the old (original) Constitutions by St Teresa were included at the back of the book just for reference. The Constitutions don't usually include the day to day traditions and customs however, as there are too many of these and they are different for each community. These are covered by a separate document called the Paper of Exactions. I don't see why the Constitutions wouldn't be available through some source or another - I know that our priest (chaplain) had a copy of his own, which he read to try to understand us better! Getting a copy of the Paper of Exactions is another matter however since they get changed and updated and might not be readily available.