Traditions And Customs, Etc.

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote]For those of you who are thinking about entering a contemplative/cloistered life, how do you feel about this? Do you expect (and want) to completely withdraw from the world and focus only on Jesus or do you feel that is unhealthy? Do you expect to have access to the internet?[/quote]

I am discerning what is being spoken of. I expect to be withdrawn from the world and I expect to seek to only focus on Jesus and the salvation of souls, for love of Him. I have a desire, that I cannot explain, to do just the above. I have often wondered about this desire, and after discernment have come to the conclusion that it is probably a desire placed with in me by God. I will probably encounter many things I don't understand quite well...many customs. I will probably encounter certain penances performed by the community as a whole that I had not heard I would encounter. I trust though, that if this vocation is the will of God, I will grow accustomed to it. I will try to see it, and pray that I may be granted the grace to see it, as another opportunity to give something precious to Our Lord and better die to self.

St. Teresa of the Andes declared that to be a Carmelite was to "pray much, love much, and suffer much." I desire these things. At first I only desired the first two, but, as time goes on, I have come to the conclusion that one cannot escape suffering if one wishes to be holy, to be like Christ, and to save many souls. I have even come to desire this part of Carmel, as well. As much as I probably romanticize the idea of Carmel, In reality, I know deep down, that there will be many thorns. Every minute will call for a total death to self. Even when writing these words of the sufferings, I am given courage and my desire for the life is still very much there.

The life of a Carmelite, and of a Poor Clare as well, is as Sr. M. Andre of the PCPAs in Arizona wrote, one of an immolated victim. She is to be a host, as her beloved. This involves sacrifice daily. It will not be easy. Whenever I think of the penances and sufferings to be endured ahead I naturally at first turn away weakly, but the words Jesus said to Sr. Josefa come to mind, "As for you, [i]you will live in the most complete and profound obscurity, and as you are My chosen victim, you will suffer, and overwhelmed by suffering you will die. Seek neither rest nor alleviation; you will find none[/i], for such is My will. But [u]My love will sustain you, and never shall I fail you[/u]." If God's will for myself is to be an immolated victim, in complete obscurity with in the walls of Carmel, then so be it! I will try my very best to do His will, wanting to seek no comfort for myself: not internet, not the comforts and little desires of the flesh and world that will naturally present themselves, not family... not anything. I am easily distracted as well and these things do, in their own ways, draw me away from giving myself totally over to Christ. So, I see it best that I live a life without them. I want the life that St. Teresa of Avila, St. Therese of Lisieux, and St. Teresa of the Andes had. I want all the customs and traditions which they had, for these things were apart of the life that led them toward greater union and love with Christ - my ultimate goal.

This is my true desire, which I believe to be placed with in me by God.

I understand others do not have the exact same desires. They have discerned that God is calling them toward a community - toward an order... toward a life - that leads them toward holiness in a different way. But the above life, is what I feel called too. It is one of praying much, loving much, and also suffering much. Sometimes I chuckle thinking I am so terrible that God knew only if He called me to a so called 'strict' life that I would have the possibility of ever being good.

... I am only speaking of what I desire and feel to be the will of God for myself. I do not know the circumstances of religious' actions. I do not know God's will for another. I seek not to condemn those who are living something different in some ways to what I am called to. I don't wish to offend anyone. I am simply saying that I do feel called to a more "traditional" life and these are my thoughts on what is possibly ahead of me concerning customs/penance/suffering in religious life. God bless

[Thomist-in-Training]

Wow, what a post. I for one appreciate your candour, TotusTuusMaria.

One of my friends visited the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate this summer and said that their beds are like "tables", as CathAnon described some monastic beds, but also that they have a knob, like the end of the handle of a baseball bat, in the very middle. "Those beds were great!" he said. A zealous man! I have to say I quailed somewhat at the prospect myself, but perhaps the Sisters have different observances. If they are the same, if I'm meant to be there then I will cope with it.

N.B. The FFI are not cloistered, but I wanted to comment anyways since it seemed relevant.

Edited April 20, 2008 by Thomist-in-Training

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1503588' date='Apr 19 2008, 05:57 PM']I am discerning what is being spoken of. I expect to be withdrawn from the world and I expect to seek to only focus on Jesus and the salvation of souls, for love of Him. I have a desire, that I cannot explain, to do just the above. I have often wondered about this desire, and after discernment have come to the conclusion that it is probably a desire placed with in me by God. I will probably encounter many things I don't understand quite well...many customs. I will probably encounter certain penances performed by the community as a whole that I had not heard I would encounter. I trust though, that if this vocation is the will of God, I will grow accustomed to it. I will try to see it, and pray that I may be granted the grace to see it, as another opportunity to give something precious to Our Lord and better die to self.

St. Teresa of the Andes declared that to be a Carmelite was to "pray much, love much, and suffer much." I desire these things. At first I only desired the first two, but, as time goes on, I have come to the conclusion that one cannot escape suffering if one wishes to be holy, to be like Christ, and to save many souls. I have even come to desire this part of Carmel, as well. As much as I probably romanticize the idea of Carmel, In reality, I know deep down, that there will be many thorns. Every minute will call for a total death to self. Even when writing these words of the sufferings, I am given courage and my desire for the life is still very much there.

The life of a Carmelite, and of a Poor Clare as well, is as Sr. M. Andre of the PCPAs in Arizona wrote, one of an immolated victim. She is to be a host, as her beloved. This involves sacrifice daily. It will not be easy. Whenever I think of the penances and sufferings to be endured ahead I naturally at first turn away weakly, but the words Jesus said to Sr. Josefa come to mind, "As for you, [i]you will live in the most complete and profound obscurity, and as you are My chosen victim, you will suffer, and overwhelmed by suffering you will die. Seek neither rest nor alleviation; you will find none[/i], for such is My will. But [u]My love will sustain you, and never shall I fail you[/u]." If God's will for myself is to be an immolated victim, in complete obscurity with in the walls of Carmel, then so be it! I will try my very best to do His will, wanting to seek no comfort for myself: not internet, not the comforts and little desires of the flesh and world that will naturally present themselves, not family... not anything. I am easily distracted as well and these things do, in their own ways, draw me away from giving myself totally over to Christ. So, I see it best that I live a life without them. I want the life that St. Teresa of Avila, St. Therese of Lisieux, and St. Teresa of the Andes had. I want all the customs and traditions which they had, for these things were apart of the life that led them toward greater union and love with Christ - my ultimate goal.

This is my true desire, which I believe to be placed with in me by God.

I understand others do not have the exact same desires. They have discerned that God is calling them toward a community - toward an order... toward a life - that leads them toward holiness in a different way. But the above life, is what I feel called too. It is one of praying much, loving much, and also suffering much. Sometimes I chuckle thinking I am so terrible that God knew only if He called me to a so called 'strict' life that I would have the possibility of ever being good.

... I am only speaking of what I desire and feel to be the will of God for myself. I do not know the circumstances of religious' actions. I do not know God's will for another. I seek not to condemn those who are living something different in some ways to what I am called to. I don't wish to offend anyone. I am simply saying that I do feel called to a more "traditional" life and these are my thoughts on what is possibly ahead of me concerning customs/penance/suffering in religious life. God bless [/quote]

I agree with absolutely everything you wrote and my heart burns with love just to read it. BUT, and this is the really hard thing to say, in my case - "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak." I lo v e the IDEA of everything about being a victim for Jesus and suffering, etc, but the practical reality is that I would probably fall apart long before I was ever able to become in any way holy at all!

I will pray YOU on however, since you seem to be fired with passion for Our Lord. This is such a beautiful thing to witness. He deserves that the whole world should lo v e Him this much! Thank you.

Edited April 20, 2008 by nunsense

[johnnydigit]

specifically what kinds of sufferings would a religious endure in order to merit it "overwhelming"? it seems like there is something more mysterious that people are referring to other than the tangible sufferings like from physical health - injury/age, mental - loneliness, faith, boredom, social/community life.. repression from obedience? some kind of psychological breakdown?

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote]One of my friends visited the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate this summer and said that their beds are like "tables", as CathAnon described some monastic beds, but also that they have a knob, like the end of the handle of a baseball bat, in the very middle. "Those beds were great!" he said. A zealous man! I have to say I quailed somewhat at the prospect myself, but perhaps the Sisters have different observances. If they are the same, if I'm meant to be there then I will cope with it.[/quote]

Oh yes, what a zealous man! The bed and knob do not sound pleasant, but how wonderful for him to see them as something “great” to give over to our Lord. And for you, when knowing that the same comforts will possibly not be allowed, to discern anyway in that direction for the love of God and His will. When reading it, I quailed a bit too. I hope I gave no false impressions of my repugnance to anything that goes against my nature, which seems only to ever want comfort. While I pray for grace and I am reminded of those words that I shall have no comfort and that I should not seek it, I cannot help but still “quail” a bit myself. But like I said earlier, if the certain life I am discerning is the will of God, I will [i]try[/i] to see it, and pray that I may be granted the grace to see it, as another opportunity to give something precious to Our Lord and better die to self. I know I will surly shrink under everything if God does not supply me with His grace. God bless you for your obvious love of His will alone!

[quote]BUT, and this is the really hard thing to say, in my case - "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak." I lo v e the IDEA of everything about being a victim for Jesus and suffering, etc, but the practical reality is that I would probably fall apart long before I was ever able to become in any way holy at all![/quote]

This is not just in your case. It is a reminder to me too that I will fall flat on my face and shrink under the laborious and hard days of a Carmelite if I do not constantly turn to Jesus. You are so right Annie. Actually, it was your writings on Carmel - about the hard work and great perseverance needed - that happily played a part in crushing many of my false little notions of the easy life within those walls. The idea is very beautiful for sure, but you are right that the flesh is weak. I think we must constantly keep our purpose on our minds and pray to our Lord for His grace. Annie, you know better than I do, that with God everything is possible - especially holiness. As St. Teresa of Avila said, “Teresa can do nothing. Jesus and Teresa can do everything.” In this case, “Annie and Marie can do nothing. Jesus and Annie as well as Jesus and Marie can do everything.”

Thank you for your prayers Annie, Lord knows I need them. I pray for you too.

- Marie

Edited April 20, 2008 by TotusTuusMaria

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1503588' date='Apr 19 2008, 05:57 PM']Sometimes I chuckle thinking I am so terrible that God knew only if He called me to a so called 'strict' life that I would have the possibility of ever being good.[/quote]
Yeah, I feel exactly the same way!!

[jkaands]

[quote name='johnnydigit' post='1503959' date='Apr 20 2008, 06:05 AM']specifically what kinds of sufferings would a religious endure in order to merit it "overwhelming"? it seems like there is something more mysterious that people are referring to other than the tangible sufferings like from physical health - injury/age, mental - loneliness, faith, boredom, social/community life.. repression from obedience? some kind of psychological breakdown?[/quote]
I'll agree with JD on this one.

I am very concerned with the tenor of all this discussion. There is a certain masochistic strain in religious life devoted to penance and self-immolation which appeals to women, particularly young women. Sr. Josefa’s revelations reflect this tendency:

"As for you, you will live in the most complete and profound obscurity, and as you are My chosen victim, you will suffer, and overwhelmed by suffering you will die. Seek neither rest nor alleviation; you will find none, for such is My will. But My love will sustain you, and never shall I fail you."

--are not part of the canon of belief of the Catholic Church. They are private revelations and as such, may be deemed worthy of belief but are not required by believers.

St. Therese, who lived a very austere life and died indirectly from that austerity, showed the way with her Little Way. Every time she tried some dramatic austerity, over and above the usual austerities of Carmel, she got very ill. She learned from this not to seek out the grand, but only the little opportunities, minor self-denials and constant charity. Early on she would mix her food to make it taste bad; she soon got over this and learned to enjoy her food if it tasted good. She did not deny herself simple pleasures, few and far between though they were.

I think personally that deliberately seeking austerities, the knob in the bed, the ridges in the plank, the discipline (abandoned by most Carmels), and the hairshirt (abandoned by the Carthusians), are childish and tend to spiritual pride.

The love of abasement and suffering also is dangerous. It can lead to early death as Therese, Teresa of the Andes and Josefa experienced.--now all of these women lived in the 19th/early 20th c. and all in primitive circumstances according to modern times. Still...a modern Carmelite from Reno developed rheumatoid arthritis and suffered severely from it, so that when she finally was went to a doctor, it was too late, she had already developed irreversible deformities. This does not help the Carmel.

Therese taught that we should embrace the small (and large) humiliations and austeries of daily life and transform them. All great religions teach this, to forget self, to douse the ego, once and for all. As for penances, believe me, we all have myriads of opportunities in our everyday life, and if you don’t think so now, just wait until you’re married, or a parent--marriage and parenthood offer an unparalleled opportunity for penance (sleep deprivation, sometime for YEARS), self-abnegation and patience, or in religious life--ditto-, and beyond this, wait until you start to [i]age.[/i] THEN you will experience bodily penances aplenty!

[alicemary]

thank you for that last posting, I was really getting a little concerned about the tone of this discussion. Religious life will be difficult enough without adding so much reflection on the physical deprivations. It will be hard enough rising at 5 am to me. The monasteries I have visited have all had beds, without torture devices. I am sorry, but do not see the need for such things. If you need to beat your body up so that you can live as a nun, you can have it. Our bodies are the temples of the Lord. Yes, a nun can expect to fast some, to rise early, to not chose the menu for the day. Heck living in community will be moritfication enough, it ain't easy.
I live with physical pain every day, as do many people who are over the age of 50(yes ancient to many of you, don't worry you will one day be there). I can no longer kneel, cannot genuflect. Somehow I know the Lord understands and loves me anyway.
I would enter religioius life because I love the Lord. I don't need to beat my body into submission, I chose the life. Many of these practices were abandoned, and I am quite frankly shocked that they continue in some places.
Thank God there are solid relligious communities like the Summit Dominicans who live a joy filled life tempered with penances.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

I agree with Jkaands and Alicemary. I have been learning that the greatest penances are the things that don't look like penance at all, such as learning how to be gentle when somebody falsely accuses you of something (that happened to me recently) or to take a correction quietly and gratefully when you know you're wrong and don't like it. This is the hardest of the two where I'm concerned. And no one knows the internal struggle and no one knows when you've triumphed. The lack of recognition, the lack of anything superbly difficult to make the task 'special', is why these things don't pass as penances. Yet these are the penances that make up day-to-day life for religious communities and laypeople alike. Not kissing people's feet or wearing a cilice.

I think that my sceptical attitude to corporal mortification (such as lying on a ridged bed) comes from the fact that I am disabled and I already find various day-to-day activities difficult enough. Why is it that people seek to hamper themselves physically when God has given them a body that works? Refusal to hurt yourself is not the same as self-indulgence. You don't have to harm yourself and disturb your sleep to be holy. I suspect that holiness is much simpler than it looks, which is precisely why some people shy away from it. There is a voice inside us that stutters, "But - but - but - I have to beat myself, go for days without food, pass every spiritual endurance test in the book...THEN I'll be holy." It's about feeling holy as opposed to being holy, and that isn't right. Another great penance is to accept yourself as you are, and that's something that extreme corporal mortifications can prevent. They mean that you try to expunge all failings from your mind and body via violent and increasingly obscure means rather than learning to live with them.

[EWIE]

or to take a correction quietly and gratefully when you know you're wrong and don't like it. This is the hardest of the two where I'm concerned. And no one knows the internal struggle and no one knows when you've triumphed. The lack of recognition, the lack of anything superbly difficult to make the task 'special', is why these things don't pass as penances. Yet these are the penances that make up day-to-day life for religious communities and laypeople alike.

You took the examples right out of my own experience. Self chosen "penance" is always the easiest and isn't penance at all. The body will acclimate itself to almost anything, even the ridge in the bed. But the false sense of self....THE EGO.....rebels when IT is denied. Try and sleep when the EGO is kicking and screaming at the false accusations it supposedly has joyfully accepted.....and NObody knows!!!!
Most of the Saints repented before they died, of the extremes they put their bodies through.
God said it is wonderfully made and in Genesis it tells us that God looked at the world that He made and said ""it is good", it is very good".
It is an old saying in Carmel that a Carmelite can sleep on anything. If you are tired enough you can sleep on the busy end of a rake.
BTW,.....the Carmel mattress with which I am familiar, was made of straw.

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='jkaands' post='1504279' date='Apr 20 2008, 01:00 PM']I am very concerned with the tenor of all this discussion. There is a certain masochistic strain in religious life devoted to penance and self-immolation which appeals to women, particularly young women. Sr. Josefa’s revelations reflect this tendency:

"As for you, you will live in the most complete and profound obscurity, and as you are My chosen victim, you will suffer, and overwhelmed by suffering you will die. Seek neither rest nor alleviation; you will find none, for such is My will. But My love will sustain you, and never shall I fail you."

--are not part of the canon of belief of the Catholic Church. They are private revelations and as such, may be deemed worthy of belief but are not required by believers.[/quote]
If the Church has judged her writings, and ones very similar to hers, like the diaries of St. Faustina, St. Veronica Giuliani, or St. Margaret Mary, to be worthy of belief, I don't think it's in union with the mind of the Church to say such writings are "masochistic," and even have masochistic tendencies.

There are many many saints, and I don't believe I would be off in saying [i]all of them[/i], who offered themselves in union with Our Lord to suffer for the salvation of souls, and the Church has canonized them and offered them to us as examples of people who truly followed the Lamb and bore fruit a hundredfold.

And aside from extraordinary penances (which I know even the more traditional Carmels like Buffalo do not emphasis -- they are all about St. Therese's "Little Way" -- and yes, EWIE is right: when they refer to Carmelites that sleep on wooden planks - on top of these planks is a straw mattress, which is comfortable enough to sleep on - no Discalced Carmelite Monastery following the Constitutions of St. Teresa will have only a wooden plank as a bed)

But again, aside from external extraordinary penances, I don't think TotusTuusMaria is specifically talking about this, but the sufferings that Our Lord will allow a soul to endure who offers herself to Him in this way; the hidden sufferings He allows in everyday life, like those of Sr. Josefa or St. Faustina, which nobody around them knew of as they went about fulfilling their ordinary duties, whether spiritual or physical sufferings, or sufferings within community life, like not being understood, etc.

St. Therese offered herself as a victim and suffered terribly for it. In Fr. Benedict Groeschel's talk on St. Therese, [i]Darkness and Light[/i], he says St. Therese's "Little Way" is in reality a [i]very big[/i] way. She was constantly offering herself in everything she did, and in all the interior and exterior suffering Our Lord allowed her.

[quote]"If I did not suffer minute by minute, it would be impossible for me to be patient; but I see only the present moment. I forget the past and take good care not to anticipate the future." - St. Therese[/quote]
[quote]"But to be a martyr is what I long for most of all ... I am just foolish about this because I do not desire any one kind of torture; I would be satisfied only with them all. I want to be scourged and crucified like You, my Spouse; flayed alive like St. Bartholomew; thrown into boiling oil like St. John; and ground by the teeth of wild beasts like St. Ignatius of Antioch, so that I might become bread worthy of God. Like St. Agnes and St. Cecilia, I want to offer my neck to the executioner's sword, and like Joan of Arc, murmur the name of Jesus at the burning stake. My heart thrills at the thought of the undreamed of torments which will be the lot of Christians in the time of the Anti-Christ! I want them all to be my lot!" - St. Therese[/quote]
[quote]"Lord, either let me suffer or let me die." - St. Teresa of Avila[/quote]
[quote]"For my heart is always with Him, day and night it thinks unceasingly of its heavenly and divine Friend, to whom it wants to prove its affection. Also within it arises this desire: not to die, but to suffer long, to suffer for God, to give Him its life while praying for poor sinners." - Bl Elisabeth of the Trinity, OCD[/quote]
I think it's really off from the mind of the Church, to say that the desire to suffer in union with Our Lord for the salvation of souls is masochistic (which is [i]really[/i] off) or unhealthy. It is inspired by the Holy Spirit, and is the spirit of the saints.

Edited April 21, 2008 by Margaret Clare

[jkaands]

...but we don't know how many people have come to grief over trying to practice this spirituality. We hear only about the saints, and there have been fewer visionaries in recent centuries than in the past. I think that this sort of spirituality is potentially a very dangerous path.

I think that anyone who seriously wishes to follow this path to salvation should do so only with the guidance of a competent spiritual director, and in searching for a community, an equally competent vocational director as well. I don't know if these two are usually the same or not.

[AccountDeleted]

The safest way to practice any mortification, whether it be interior or exterior, is under the guidance of a competent spiritual director.

St John of the Cross said that physical penance is the penance of beasts. And yet this saint wore a chain around his waist that dug into his flesh and caused him to bleed when it was removed. One can only hope that he was under the guidance of a spiritual director when he did this! Of course in his day, attitudes were quite different regarding physcial penances. And yes, many saints later said that their physical penances were too much, but this is obviously the way that God was calling them at the time.

When I went into Carmel, I wanted all of the exterior mortifications and wished for penances, but there were very little of these available -- and as others have said here, it was the unexpected and everyday mortifications that were the real suffering for me.

There really is no point in physical mortifications unless they serve some purpose, such as to subdue a particular passion etc, but again, this should only be done under guidance and obedience. St Teresa of the Andes would ask for physical penances and her director would deny these to her. This is the only way to avoid the sin of spiritual pride which is lurking always.

I don't think the word "masochistic" really applies here because masochists actually enjoy physical pain whereas the whole point of spiritual suffering is that it actually involves suffering! If one is enjoying it - then it isn't suffering!

And I don't have all of the posts in front of me, but someone said that Therese's Little Way was really a Big Way - and I agree 100% - just try offering up every little thing to Our Lord and one soon finds that this is a very BIG task.

I think the main point is that the spirit behind the desire to suffer for Christ is really the important thing. He will take that desire and find a way to use it. Every day, in our lives, there will be occasions of suffering, and we can offer each of these up to Him. I didn't really understand this concept of suffering for Him until I heard something that Rosalind Moss said about it. I often wondered how we could add to anything that Christ had already suffered but she described it like this (and I am not quoting since I don't remember it exactly)... A mother goes into the kitchen to bake a cake. She has all the ingredients and knows exactly what to do - she needs nothing added in order to do the job. But her young daughter then comes into the kitchen and says "Mommy, may I help you?" Now the mother doesn't need help, and the daughter will probably even get in the way or make things harder, but the mother welcomes her help because it DOES add something to the making of the cake - but obviously not materially.

Whenever someone is passionate about something, it can seem scary - almost obsessive - but to me there is just something so beautiful about someone who loves Our Lord so much that they want to do anything for Him. I mean, martyrs were prepared to die for Him! Being in love means being a little "over the top" about everything but there is nothing wrong (in my humble opinion) with expressing a desire to suffer and die for Jesus ---- provided that person does not actually do anything except under competent spiritual direction. That way the masochists and the ego-maniacs can be weeded out.

We mustn't be afraid of passion - it is the way of all the saints!

[cathoholic_anonymous]

It is worth noting here that some of St Therese's grandiose passages about wanting to have all vocations and to suffer in every conceivable manner made her wince at later points in her journey. [i]She was not a saint from the very beginning of her life, and not everything that she committed to paper is a great spiritual document.[/i] When her sister Celine tried to take these things as examples of Therese's sanctity, Therese herself got distressed by it.

I was talking about this with a very old and experienced Carmelite novice mistress, who told me that people are either too unwilling or too afraid to accept Therese for the simple-hearted person she was and feel the need to seize onto the things about her that [i]they[/i] recognise - the desire for exotic sufferings, great chances to prove themselves worthy (only not worthy in [i]that[/i] sense, of course, because we are very humble people and we are prepared to lick grit from the floor of the refectory to show everybody just how humble we are), every possible test of spiritual endurance.

Anything but accept the quiet, almost monotonous rhythm of authentic religious life. When I was in Carmel I did get bored occasionally. I suppose beating myself from time to time or spoiling my food would have livened things up, but that wasn't what I was there for.

Saints did suffer. Suffering is a part of the human condition. But does genuine suffering consist in Blessed Jacinta refusing to drink water when she was burning up with fever, all because of her desire to save souls; or does it consist of the same Jacinta quietly accepting and drinking the proffered water - even against her will - because the worry of her daughter's illness was making her mother poorly too?

I faced a similar dilemma recently. I was at the house of a non-Catholic friend who has been quite ill. I had been invited to stay for a few days to cheer him up and help him get ready to go back to university. On Friday, the final day of my stay, his mother cooked a special meal. It was roast lamb with all the trimmings and a chocolate pudding to follow. Now, I fast on Fridays. Sometimes I don't eat anything at all. When I smelled the food cooking, I could have gone into the kitchen and informed my friend's mother not to take any trouble - I would just be eating an apple or a pear that evening, for religious reasons. I certainly wouldn't be able to have her lamb.

I went into the kitchen and the first thing she said was, "Thank you for being so good to my son."

That was when I realised that this meal was for me, as a thank-you. It would be a penance to eat it, but eat it I was going to. Every last mouthful. I saw then that austerities could be very selfish indeed.

It turned out to be a blessing, as it has made me re-evaluate my Friday penances. Do I fast out of habit? Out of desire to do the traditional Catholic thing? Or because God invites me to do so? And am I ever guilty of romanticising suffering?

Edited April 21, 2008 by Cathoholic Anonymous

[alicemary]

I think you have hit the nail on the head.....romanticisizing the suffering. When you do a penance, it is not something you broadcast to the world. It is approved by your superior and done in quiet. Or it s something the community does as a group.
And it may not be masochism directly, but it is some form of gratfication for what you are doing. No one is lying on a stupid knob or ridge on their bed night after night, and you tell me that is a normal thing to do? One wears a chain around your waist until you bleed and it eats into your flesh and tell me that is done for the greater glory of God? Today, if that wound got infected you would be shown the door because it costs alot of money to treat something like that. And you would be given a psychiatric eval. It makes no sense.
No where is the rigors and trails of living in community day after day week after week. St Theresa talks about the nun who sat behind her in choir and rattled her rosary beads....now that is real suffereing.
Young girls have always had a bent to anorexia...and some of these saints stories smack of that. Certain times condoned use of physical penances. Just as certain time condoned crucifixion as an effective death penalty.
Glamorizing 'saint's' who never ate or who tortured their bodies sets a very bad precedent. Back in 1850 maybe that sounded like the thing to do. I am sorry, but today it does not sound emotionally healthy TO ME.
Again, I say, God is a God of love. He loves us, He made us. He doesn't make junk. He made us in His image.
It is hard being physically seperated from the world, to be away from family and friends. It is hard not having that cigarette or bag of doritos. Those things, TO ME, are more valuable then wearing a hair shirt.