Traditions And Customs, Etc.

[Guest Perpetualove]

This question is in response to the thread that Margaret Clare started about the Carmelites and the split regarding the 1990/1991 Constitutions.

I am not asking for a debate, but your thoughts, feelings, expectations! In the other thread, Laudem gave a link to an article about a problem one of the Carmels faced when changes were introduced. I remembered that incident, but I couldn't remember the Carmel.

Many of us are thinking about cloistered/contemplative life (including me!). How strict is strict? I belong to a variety of internet groups about religious life, religious books, history of nuns, etc., and I have noticed that more and more cloistered nuns are on these groups. I am always surprised (perhaps unfairly) because my "image" of these cloistered communities always included the idea that they would be separated from the world - from telephones, television, and now, the internet.

I write fairly regularly to the Prior of the Charterhouse of Carthusians and I know they don't really like to interact too much. So when I write, I always end my letter (or donation) with, [i]I respect your life of silence and withdrawal, please do not respond[/i]. At Christmas, he always thanks me for understanding. My dear friend who has been in a traditional Carmel for over twenty years has access to the internet, but writes (letters) to me. And I write to her. Once or twice I have called the Monastery, but only for something really urgent.

I would be SHOCKED if I saw her on some of these internet groups.

For those of you who are thinking about entering a contemplative/cloistered life, how do you feel about this? Do you expect (and want) to completely withdraw from the world and focus only on Jesus or do you feel that is unhealthy? Do you expect to have access to the internet?

I totally and completely understand communities that use the internet to make their life visible for those possibly interested. I also understand a vocation mistress answering personal emails. Even the Carmelites of Indianapolis, who have a special vocation to pray for the world, do so on their internet site, but without interacting with the public.

Every once in a while, I find myself really surprised to see a cloistered nun on an internet group - arguing a point with someone! The one that I am thinking of belongs to a group (that I am in) that focuses on a particular spirituality, which is not the spirituality of her own order. I am sure she has permission to be on the group, but I do sort of feel like she is scandalizing people.

For those of you who feel like you will one day end up in a cloistered monastery, what do you think? Do you think this activity of being on internet groups breaks enclosure? How strict do you envision your life being?

I look forward to the answers....

[praxedes]

I believe that a vow of enclosure pertains to the internet. If a religious is using the internet for personal reasons with permission from her Superior, I think she or he should not drag their community into the fray. It is for this reason I chose not to identify myself nor my community, for I do not want my community to be judged due to my failings - real or imagined.

As for the other questions, I cannot answer them because I am no longer searching.

+Pax,
Praxedes

[Laudem Gloriae]

This from an Instruction on the Contemplative Life and on the Enclosure of Nuns by the Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life 1999:

"The ancient spiritual tradition of the Church, taken up by the Second Vatican Council, explicitly connects the contemplative life to the prayer of Jesus on the mountain, or solitary place not accessible to all but only to those whom he calls to be with him, apart from the others.

The enclosure, even in its physical form, is a special way of being with the Lord, of sharing in Christ's emptying of himself by means of a radical poverty, expressed in renunciation not only of things but also of "space", of contacts, of so many benefits of creation.

The monastery is intended to create a space of separation, solitude and silence, where God can be sought more freely in a life not only for him and with him but also in him alone.

Therefore it is necessary that the person, free from all attachment, disquiet or distraction, interior and exterior, may gather her faculties and turn to God to welcome his presence in the joy of adoration and praise."

This is from Pope John Paul II:

"In the monastery everything is directed to the search for the face of God, everything is reduced to the essential, because the only thing that matters is what leads to him. Monastic recollection is attention to the presence of God: if it is dissipated by many things, the journey slows down and the final destination disappears from view.

Contemplative silence can in fact be undermined when noise, news and talk fill the enclosure. With prudent discernment and for everyone's benefit, the use of modern means of communication, such as fax machines, cellular telephones or the INTERNET, may be permitted in the monastery, for the exchange of information or for reasons of work."


Surfing the internet and checking out numerous sites, reading the posts and then posting themselves is breaking enclosure. Whatever happened to avoiding the near occasion of sin? As can be seen on Phatmass, there has been many heated debates that has upset people and probably caused uncharitable thoughts - and most are lay people.

I do ask the orders I've talked to about how they use the internet. I pray the order the Lord has in mind for me will be one that doesn't use the internet for these purposes. Yes, an order should have a nice website if they want to help attract vocations and explain their life. Yes email is handy for a discerner to contact these orders and for the Vocation mistress to write back to the discerner. And perhaps for the nun/sister in charge of bill paying they could use the internet but these activities aren't breaking enclosure. But when you see (which I have) the same few sisters in orders on numerous sites over and over, you have to wonder about their vocation or even the way their monastery is run. This, to me, isn't giving up the world.

Having a nice blog is the thing lately and a few are nice - the sister doesn't post too often and it is about their life and answers questions about their life and NOT about politics or other hot social issues of the world. The sisters aren't wasting all their time every day posting ridiculous nonsense and crazy goings on in their monastery or the world.

I know of many orders that have websites but no email so you have to break out the pen and paper or type up a letter and send it snail mail. I think the internet should be restricted to the prioress/abbess/vocation sister and used for emails to discerners and maybe for a nice blog. There is a PCC blog that is very nice and about their order and the sisters only update 6 times a year. It can be done without be abused.

My daughter, who is in her earlier 20's is objective pretty much about this and asked, "Why did they bother entering an order if they are going to have ridiculous blogs with college girl antics and then spend so much time surfing the net? Just stay home if you need the world so badly." I had shown her very say blogs on an order and she thought it was a joke. She knew some girls in college who weren't that ridiculous.

So hmm, what's my opinion? There needs to be a major rethinking of the internet in orders. Here I am a lay person still, and I visit maybe 2-3 blogs and post occasionally at 2. When I see a cloistered nun posting on well past that number, there is something wrong. I know how much time I spend on my visits to blogs, and so that means these sisters/nuns are spending much more time. So when every order tells how busy they are with work, prayer, classes, recreation, etc., where is all this time coming from? Hopefully it's not coming from prayer or rec time because that is time to spend with God and your fellow sisters in community, not the world wide web.

[Saint Therese]

[quote]Every once in a while, I find myself really surprised to see a cloistered nun on an internet group - arguing a point with someone! The one that I am thinking of belongs to a group (that I am in) that focuses on a particular spirituality, which is not the spirituality of her own order. I am sure she has permission to be on the group, but I do sort of feel like she is scandalizing people.[/quote]

I think this phorum is misnamed. It should be tittled " The internet and the Cloister".

Edited April 16, 2008 by Saint Therese

[Guest Perpetualove]

Sorry, St. Therese. In my original post, I spoke only of the internet or perhaps focused TOO much on it because that's one of things that I'm struggling with. I thought perhaps others would add their own questions and thoughts.

How about these questions?

Do you expect to have access to television? How much? Daily news or special events (like the Holy Father's election, etc.) Radio? Music? Secular books? Magazines?

Do you expect to have movie nights for special events (like Feast Days?)?

How do you feel about the customs concerning food? Some communities eat standing up, some use their bowls as finger bowls after eating and wash their hands/utensils in the same bowl they eat in. Some, as a sign of penance, beg for scraps during dinner. Some consider food only a necessity and make it as plain as possible to not stimulate the senses; others believe food is the only pleasure left in cloistered life and go out their way to celebrate food. Not eating meat?!

What about alcohol? Do you expect to have a glass of wine now and then?

How do you feel about the grille and having limited physical access to others? (Some really cloistered, traditional communities have serious grilles...prohibiting a "real" hug, some have half a wall so a hug is possible).

I hope this better reflects my topic title.

[jkaands]

Perp, have you looked at or visited Benedictine cloisters? My impression is that the Benedictines do not go out for severe penance, do eat decent food and observe constitutional, rather than papal enclosure. There's a difference between papal and constitutional enclosure, which our resident experts can describe. Remember the link on Regina Laudis? They have people inside their enclosure and go away to school, if necessary. There's a terrific blog out of Colwich in UK, started by puellapascalis, who was there for a month. The blog is clearly about vocations to this community, but includes many details of their life. They have visitors within, often oblates, and don't seem terribly penitential in the food dept. Some of what you describe sounded like the Collettines, one of the most penitential orders; the begging the food was described at the Tyringham Visitation, which I think is very conservative.

Our former cloistered poster was posting as an aid to vocations and to clarification of issues, I am pretty certain. She was vocations director, so that made sense. She didn't chat.

[puellapaschalis]

[quote name='jkaands' post='1500955' date='Apr 16 2008, 09:43 PM']There's a terrific blog out of Colwich in UK, started by puellapascalis, who was there for a month.[/quote]

Sorry, hate (don't hate, appreciate) to nitpick, but please don't attribute the blog - or even its inception! - to one person. The novitiate at Colwich came up with the idea, and as a novitiate asked and gained permission for it. I was just an aspirant, and whilst I'm quite bolshy, there's no way I would have kicked it up on my own initiative

[Stacey]

Sorry Puella, i have to say something about your comment - we didn't come up with the idea of the blog, you did, we didn't even know what one was and we struggled a lot in the beginning over the very basics, however we are glad you did and it seems to be working out well, so thankyou and we are really glad some of you like it, pax sr marie-therese.

[Guest Perpetualove]

Thanks, but I definitely know the difference between papal enclosure and constitutional -I'm the one that has spent all that time at Regina Laudis (though even there, certain customs are retained - every nun has to do their vows in calligraphy with illumination whether they are artistic or not, they do use serious grilles upon occasion, like kneeling in choir when a mistake is made, not talking to guests unless permission is granted first, etc.). I was just trying to come up with a variety of questions since St. Therese had a problem with my original post and the topic. I thought maybe a variety of people could share their thoughts - from the very conservative/traditional (like the PCC's) to the more relaxed/progressive (like the Yanktown Benedictines. (I'm trying - really hard - to not use triggering "political" words!)

I am sure that anybody who is considering monastic/contemplative life is reflecting upon what enclosure will mean and how they will live with it, even if it is more relaxed than some of the more traditional places, as well as other customs and/or practices. I know I listed some of the most extreme and traditional, but that was in the hopes that I could correct my first error and perhaps get some other input. Every monastic life does entail some conversion of manners, to borrow a term from St. Benedict. Even if it means giving up personal ownership, living in an institutional type place (like the larger Benedictine places) or not having regular access to television/radio/favorite music.

[irishdancer]

If I enter the Norbertine Sisters there will be no access to the internet unless I do work for the community that requires it. For example some Sisters are taking classes on-line preparing to teach within the community. ALso the Prioress and those who handle business etc. It makes sense to me. For example, we may receive mail from anyone but it is only opened one Sunday a month--not during Lent or Advent--and replied to on the same day. (Yipes--I said we) From what Mother said the idea is to minimize distractions from prayer and the life. If families are too far away for visits, which can be monthly as a postulant, and four times a year after that, telephone visits are allowed. Also for emergencies of course. And family may stay at the guesthouse for a few days during the visits.

Like I said my intuitive response is that it makes sense. But I don't know enough to explain it any better.

[Antoniette]

This is "walk the chalk line issue" if there was ever one. realistically blogging and email access can be distractions in a cloister. However within even the strictest cloister, some concession to dealing with world should be permitted. Bills can be paid anonymously, finances balanced and understood, without having to leave the clositer to go to the bank.
This was a major issue for a Carmelite prioress who had to express community business in public. Likewise, necessary merchandise, building supplies may be ordered more cheaply online and not tax a budget as visits to a Supermarket or Home Depot.

Lets be honest, the younger generation is all computer savy and internet searchers. How many persons are now actually connected to the parish priest as a spiritual guide?Don't forget their diminishing numbers. A good website, explaining the charism of an order,its interpretation of the rule and a contact for the vocation direction, prioress or abbess is now invaluable for vocations. How do many of us here know about the various customs in traditional orders- if not through this internet forum?

Like so many other devices, it needs to be monitored for abuses. It certainly can be boon.

On practical disciplines, the grill amd what it represents can be a welcome to some postulants, and repulsive to others. the same with recreation customs. one needs to hear where the spirit is pushing one, and see what fit, if any a particular order , or branch within an order speaks to the person's road to self sanctification. This is the one case where individuality, being singular must be respected. Fortunately, there are cloisters out there which can accommodate all needs, if one is called actually to the cloister. It really is like making the best choice for a marriage.

Antoniette

[johnnydigit]

i think the net is a great evangelization tool and at least vocation directors should keep up and maintain a site. as for brothers and sisters, i think it's unnecessary to even use the net, save for email, study, and maybe blogging. any more just leaves the door to sin, even "arguing" apologetics. it can become a monumental waste of time and grief.

i bet the old orders will remain the same, but with newer orders, or those with young vocations, they may understand we grew up with it and know how to use it wisely.

i'm discerning with the CFR's who are very active, and the friaries don't even have computers. i believe the postulants are able to check email once in a while. Fr. Luke, the vocation director, writes newsletters, and many of the priests have lots of publications. oh yeah and those big on music publish music like recorded events and chant cds.

their charism is about being "in the world, not of the world" so i can see the integration. now with cloisters, i guess there really isn't a need and can only "stir up the blood!" as Grandpa Simpson says..

[jkaands]

In searching for info on the Littleton CO Carmel, which doesn't have a website that I can find, and which follows the 1990 Constitutions, I came upon this description at the following link:

[url="http://www.littletongov.org/history/othertopics/carmelite.asp"]http://www.littletongov.org/history/othert...s/carmelite.asp[/url]

"Perhaps most severe is the requirement to sleep on a narrow wooden cot and to turn over the board one night each week so as to lie on the inch-high wooden ridges on its reverse side. During their Lent, which runs from mid-September to Easter, the nuns sleep on the ridges three nights a week. Every night they sleep with their arms entwined around a wooden cross. Mass is conducted by priests who come from local churches. They are not visible to the sisters, but say Mass on one side of a high partition, and serve communion through a heavy grill. The contrast between the use of the home by the Benedicts and by the Carmelites could not be greater."

...now this description is at a site which offers an overview of the listory and buildings in Littleton, so is not necessarily reliable. The nuns took over the home of the Benedicts; he was a fine architect who gave the large property with 10 acres. I assume that they are still there. The Guide of 2007 lists them as having 10 nuns.

Anyone of our Carmelite [i]cognoscenti [/i]know anything about the observances described above?

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='jkaands' post='1503293' date='Apr 19 2008, 09:31 AM']In searching for info on the Littleton CO Carmel, which doesn't have a website that I can find, and which follows the 1990 Constitutions, I came upon this description at the following link:

[url="http://www.littletongov.org/history/othertopics/carmelite.asp"]http://www.littletongov.org/history/othert...s/carmelite.asp[/url]

"Perhaps most severe is the requirement to sleep on a narrow wooden cot and to turn over the board one night each week so as to lie on the inch-high wooden ridges on its reverse side. During their Lent, which runs from mid-September to Easter, the nuns sleep on the ridges three nights a week. Every night they sleep with their arms entwined around a wooden cross. Mass is conducted by priests who come from local churches. They are not visible to the sisters, but say Mass on one side of a high partition, and serve communion through a heavy grill. The contrast between the use of the home by the Benedicts and by the Carmelites could not be greater."

...now this description is at a site which offers an overview of the listory and buildings in Littleton, so is not necessarily reliable. The nuns took over the home of the Benedicts; he was a fine architect who gave the large property with 10 acres. I assume that they are still there. The Guide of 2007 lists them as having 10 nuns.

Anyone of our Carmelite [i]cognoscenti [/i]know anything about the observances described above?[/quote]


I don't know about the sleeping observance that you mentioned, but I did speak with the Littleton Mother Prioress on the phone when I was discerning last year. I probably judged much too hastily at the time and should have gone there for a visit but she spent most of the call telling me about their strict rules and when I mentioned this to my spiritual director at the time, he said, "Doesn't sound like they leave much room for the Holy Spirit." so I was turned off them by what he said. Now I am thinking that perhaps she just tried to let me know these things so that I wouldn't be shocked when I went for a visit. I have found that priests often do not understand the Carmelite way. Even priests that came to our monastery would say things that made me realize that they just didn't have a clue what life was like behind the grille - not their fault since it is impossible to really understand without living it, I think.

Now I didn't discuss my annulment with her, but another friend said that they don't accept women who have been married -- I can't verify this one way or the other. If someone wants a REALLY old fashioned community - these ones sound like they could be it! I could be wrong - but they may be similar to the Poor Clare Colletines in the strictness of their observances.

If anyone else knows about them first hand from a visit, I would be curious to hear about them.


And as for other traditions and customs, the one thing that I really didn't like while I was in the English Carmel was the use of the finger bowl for drinking as well. I just couldn't see, since they changed other customs over the years, why they wouldn't just add a small cup or glass for drinking to the refectory. We could still use the godet (little bowl) for washing our fingers and utensils, but we could also practice a little hygiene as well!

The problem for me was wondering why they changed some customs and not others, but I guess they had a Chapter vote on each one at some stage in the process and everyone must have had a say. I wondered sometimes if it were an American Carmel, if they would have changed different things and kept different things the same. It would be interesting to do a comparison by nationality of the things that have changed since the Council.

Edited April 19, 2008 by nunsense

[cathoholic_anonymous]

The two communities that I feel drawn to are both fairly traditional, one slightly more so than the other. They are the Carmelites of the Divine Heart of Jesus and the Quidenham Carmelite monastery in England. However, to the best of my knowledge neither of them have customs of the sort that the Littleton nuns practice.

I believe that traditions should be like a compass-needle and point you directly to God. I have a difficult time understanding how sleeping on a hard ridged surface with your arms wrapped round a crucifix could serve that purpose. If you are exhausted during the day (and sleeping on a surface like that would prevent you from getting much good sleep) then would you be able to concentrate properly on prayers, spiritual reading, manual work, etc. during the day? Which is more important?

When I was in the monastery they didn't exactly give me a feather bed (it was much harder and narrower than the one I have at home, more like a table than a bed) but I wasn't too uncomfortable to sleep. Simple as it may seem, a night of peaceful rest can surely reflect God's glory much better than trying to sleep on a thing like a draining board.