The Confederacy And A Pope

[CatholicMax]

[url="http://catholicdiscussion.wordpress.com/2008/04/09/catholicism-and-the-old-south-by-gary-potter-pt-1/"]http://catholicdiscussion.wordpress.com/20...ry-potter-pt-1/[/url]



During Confederate President Jefferson Davis’ imprisonment following the defeat of the Confederacy, Pope Pius IX sent a picture of himself to Davis with the hand-written inscription: “Come unto me, all ye who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest.”[8] Along with this picture, the pope sent a miniature crown of thorns which he had woven with his own hands.[9] Such a gift, said a great niece, was “never before conferred on any but crowned heads.” Robert E. Lee, pointing to his own portrait of Pius IX whistling Dixie, told a visitor that he was “the only sovereign…in Europe who recognized our poor Confederacy.”

[Aloysius]

Yep. The Confederacy was incorrect about slavery, but everything else made them completely justified in their actions. Moreover, slavery was able to be abolished everywhere else in the civilized world voluntarily and without bloodshed, and as the African slave trade had already been shut down it was only a matter of time before the confederacy would have made that peaceful transition.

The Union had no legal or moral right to insist upon the union remaining when the states which had voluntarily ratified the Constitution decided to leave it.

The Confederate System is, in fact, much more compatible with Catholic Social Justice teaching about the role of governments and the principal of subsidarity.

[Paladin D]

If you's truely want to leave, try doing so again. You can call yourselves 'Confederates', I'll call myself an 'American'.

Edited April 14, 2008 by Paladin D

[CatherineM]

I would not like to confuse a compassionate hand held out to someone who suffered as being an acceptance of their background. The Pope sent letters on behalf of Ted Bundy too. I grew up where there were separate water fountains and waiting rooms. We had KKK allowed onto our highschool grounds to recruit. They were very interested in me until told them I was Catholic. I fought against white supremacist groups who were all about states' rights, and were very anti-abortion, at least of white children. I can't tell you how many times I was called an Idol worshiper and a whore of Babylon because I was Catholic. These are men who consider honor above all things. I think true honor has a different face.

[BeenaBobba]

[mod]Warning: questionable content at the website.[/mod] [url="http://remnantnewspaper.com/archives/archive-2007-01150rebels_in_rome.htm"]Here's[/url] a pretty interesting article about Catholicism and the Confederacy.

[kafka]

yeah, talk about Divine Providence. This country's official religion could have been Catholic yet God didnt will it. Lee could have marched on D.C. but he didnt.

[BeenaBobba]

P.S. That site may not be 100% orthodox, so proceed with caution, but the article itself is pretty interesting.

Edited April 14, 2008 by BeenaBobba

[Paladin D]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1499132' date='Apr 14 2008, 01:32 PM']I would not like to confuse a compassionate hand held out to someone who suffered as being an acceptance of their background. The Pope sent letters on behalf of Ted Bundy too. I grew up where there were separate water fountains and waiting rooms. We had KKK allowed onto our highschool grounds to recruit. They were very interested in me until told them I was Catholic. I fought against white supremacist groups who were all about states' rights, and were very anti-abortion, at least of white children. I can't tell you how many times I was called an Idol worshiper and a whore of Babylon because I was Catholic. These are men who consider honor above all things. I think true honor has a different face.[/quote]

Not to turn this topic into a racism thread, but since one of the reasons the Civil War was fought was slavery (or at least claimed by the North at one point), let's not forget about the American Civil Rights Movement that eventually followed after the North withdrew it's forces from the South in 1877. Segregation and discriminatory state laws were more prominent in Southern states, than the those in the North. If the South was truely innocent in this conflict, and that slavery wasn't an issue, then why were these problems apparent primarily in the South after the war? Just look to the Kansas Exodus of 1879, after the Union army left.

Both sides had blood on their hands in the Civil War. Let's thank God that despite that terrible, bloody war, we were able to become a great nation today. God Bless the United States of America!

Edited April 15, 2008 by Paladin D

[CatholicMax]

[quote name='Paladin D' post='1499097' date='Apr 14 2008, 10:39 AM']If you's truely want to leave, try doing so again. You can call yourselves 'Confederates', I'll call myself an 'American'.[/quote]
I am first from the sovereign state of Lousiana, then i am from the United States of America. My loyalty is from the bottom up not the top down.

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1499132' date='Apr 14 2008, 11:32 AM']I would not like to confuse a compassionate hand held out to someone who suffered as being an acceptance of their background. The Pope sent letters on behalf of Ted Bundy too. I grew up where there were separate water fountains and waiting rooms. We had KKK allowed onto our highschool grounds to recruit. They were very interested in me until told them I was Catholic. I fought against white supremacist groups who were all about states' rights, and were very anti-abortion, at least of white children. I can't tell you how many times I was called an Idol worshiper and a whore of Babylon because I was Catholic. These are men who consider honor above all things. I think true honor has a different face.[/quote]
There is a huge difference between the letter on behalf of Ted Budny and TO the Confederate President Jefferson Davis. First the letter was on BEHALF of Mr. Bundy where as the other letter was TO President Davis, secondly the miniature crown of thorn(an honor reserved to heads of states) was not sent to Mr. Bundy but it was sent to President Davis.

How old are you? because I was born in the South and so i can equally say I grew up where there were separate water fountains and waiting rooms. and while no one would deny that the KKK existed in the south(as well as in the North). I agree that Honor has a different face than what these people think, these people also tend to be very libertarian (which I am not). However What does any of this have to do with the Holy Father supporting the confederacy. the war was NOT about Slavery that is a fiction. and the Holy Father supported the Confederacy. those are two facts. Also consider that President Davis had a black stepson.

[CatholicMax]

[quote name='Paladin D' post='1499859' date='Apr 15 2008, 12:23 AM']Not to turn this topic into a racism thread, but since one of the reasons the Civil War was fought was slavery (or at least claimed by the North at one point), let's not forget about the American Civil Rights Movement that eventually followed after the North withdrew it's forces from the South in 1877. Segregation and discriminatory state laws were more prominent in Southern states, than the those in the North. If the South was truely innocent in this conflict, and that slavery wasn't an issue, then why were these problems apparent primarily in the South after the war? Just look to the Kansas Exodus of 1879, after the Union army left.

Both sides had blood on their hands in the Civil War. Let's thank God that despite that terrible, bloody war, we were able to become a great nation today. God Bless the United States of America![/quote]
The answer to this question is rather obvious. you are confusing the issue, you are confusing the way blacks were treated after the war with the reason for the war. the war was caused over increasing centralized government. The war did not become about slavery until halfway through the war. Many in the south having lost the war and being angry(anger is not rational) blamed the blacks for loosing the war because the North made the war about slavery half way through the war.

[CatherineM]

I just turned 46. Oklahoma tends to be one of the last place things get changed. The last confederate general to surrender was an Oklahoman, specifically Cherokee.

Edited April 15, 2008 by CatherineM

[rkwright]

[quote name='CatholicMax' post='1500062' date='Apr 15 2008, 01:17 PM']The answer to this question is rather obvious. you are confusing the issue, you are confusing the way blacks were treated after the war with the reason for the war. the war was caused over increasing centralized government. The war did not become about slavery until halfway through the war. Many in the south having lost the war and being angry(anger is not rational) blamed the blacks for loosing the war because the North made the war about slavery half way through the war.[/quote]

Your version of history is borderline revisionism. The cause of the Civil War has direct links to slavery in America; this should really be a settled point, but there are many in South who simply won't acknowledge this. The South feared a more centralized government because the federal government was taking steps to end slavery!

If the Civil war wasn't about slavery, why did the federal government at the end of the war pass the 13th and 14th amendment's, banning slavery? Just a coincidence? And why did they make the Southern states rejoining of the Union conditioned upon the ratification of these amendments?

[CatholicMax]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1500353' date='Apr 15 2008, 06:09 PM']Your version of history is borderline revisionism. The cause of the Civil War has direct links to slavery in America; this should really be a settled point, but there are many in South who simply won't acknowledge this. The South feared a more centralized government because the federal government was taking steps to end slavery!

If the Civil war wasn't about slavery, why did the federal government at the end of the war pass the 13th and 14th amendment's, banning slavery? Just a coincidence? And why did they make the Southern states rejoining of the Union conditioned upon the ratification of these amendments?[/quote]
Really? I would read Lincoln if i were you. The war for Southern independence (the war was not a Civil war as it was between two countries), was not about slavery and did not become so until the middle of the war. in fact the not so great Lincoln only "freed" slaves in a sovereign country in in states that stayed in the union. the reason why the 13th and 14th amendments came into being is because the war became about slavery. They were nothing more than a spite to the south.

[CatholicMax]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1500171' date='Apr 15 2008, 03:29 PM']I just turned 46. Oklahoma tends to be one of the last place things get changed. The last confederate general to surrender was an Oklahoman, specifically Cherokee.[/quote]
Whoohoo! Wonder if i am related? there is actually one Tribe today who is still at war with the US they have never surrendered. Its more or less like the Korean war, its not that we are not at war we just stopped fighting.(dont ask me how that works). I know that this is going to be a rather unpopular Idea however i tend to back the black segregationist leaders who wanted segregation for the right reasons. The damage done by reconstruction(one of the MAJOR factors of post war racism), as well as affirmative action have damaged what many call "race relations".

I say with pride that I have never touched a dime of the money "owed" to me by the government. What happened happened and I am thankful and better off that they came and conquered my savage people. And the reality is that blacks are better off as well, better here than in Africa getting hacked to bits. but again this all has very little to do with the fact that the Holy Father DID support the confederacy and that he DID send Jefferson Davis a gift reserved for heads of States.

[rkwright]

[quote name='CatholicMax' post='1500545' date='Apr 15 2008, 11:21 PM']Really? I would read Lincoln if i were you. The war for Southern independence (the war was not a Civil war as it was between two countries), was not about slavery and did not become so until the middle of the war. in fact the not so great Lincoln only "freed" slaves in a sovereign country in in states that stayed in the union. the reason why the 13th and 14th amendments came into being is because the war became about slavery. They were nothing more than a spite to the south.[/quote]

hmm... sounds like Lincoln was talking about Slavery before the war started. Heres part of his 'House divided' speech in 1858 [quote]"A house divided against itself cannot stand." I believe this government cannot endure, permanently half slave and half free. I do not expect the Union to be dissolved — I do not expect the house to fall — but I do expect it will cease to be divided.
It will become all one thing or all the other. Either the opponents of slavery will arrest the further spread of it, and place it where the public mind shall rest in the belief that it is in the course of ultimate extinction; or its advocates will push it forward, till it shall become alike lawful in all the States, old as well as new — North as well as South.[/quote]

I guess slavery wasn't really the issue when Dred Scott was decided just 3 years before the war.

I guess the slavery wasn't really the issue when South Carolina left the union first, claiming specifically 5 reasons: [quote]The refusal of Northern states to enforce the fugitive slave code, violating Southern personal property rights;
Agitation against slavery, which "denied the rights of property".
Assisting "thousands of slaves to leave their homes" through the Underground Railroad.
The election of Lincoln "because he has declared that 'Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free,' and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction".
"...elevating to citizenship, persons who, by the supreme law of the land, are incapable of becoming citizens".[/quote]