Jesus Fabrication

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]“Some theologians and historians believe that many of the details of Jesus' life were "borrowed" from a competing, contemporary religion, Mithraism.
Mithra was a fictional character who was worshipped as a Good Shepherd, the Way, the Truth and the Light, the Redeemer, the Savior, and the Messiah. A religion in his name was founded in the 6th century BCE. 5 Mithraism one of the most popular of religions in the Roman Empire, particularly among its soldiers and civil servants. It was Christianity's leading rival. 19 Mithra was also believed to have been born of a virgin. Like Jesus, their births were celebrated yearly on DEC-25. Mithra was also visited by shepherds and by Magi. He traveled through the countryside, taught, and performed miracles with his 12 disciples. He cast out devils, returned sight to the blind, healed the lame, etc. Symbols associated with Mithra were a Lion and a Lamb. He held a last supper, was killed, buried in a rock tomb. He rose again after three days later, at the time of the spring equinox, circa MAR-21. He later ascended into heaven. Mithraism celebrated the anniversary of his resurrection, similar to the Christian Easter. They held services on Sunday. Rituals included a Eucharist and six other sacraments that corresponded to the rituals of the Catholic church. Some individuals who are skeptical about stories of Jesus' life suspect that Christianity may have appropriated many details of Mithraism in order to make their religion more acceptable to Pagans. St. Augustine even stated that the priests of Mithra worshipped the same God as he did. 19 Other early Christians believed that Satan invented Mithraism and that he made Mithra's life and the practices of the religion identical to what Christianity would become centuries later. They felt that Satan's purpose was to confuse believers.”[/quote]
[url="http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcno.htm"]http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcno.htm[/url]

i realize this topic has been mentioned. i don't remember this character mentinoed before though.

[Galloglasses]

I can only say that if any of that was true.




The Jews would've pointed it out a looooooooooooooooooooooong time ago. And keep poking at us with it.

[Servant of the Secret Fire]

These accusations do seem to have been around a while. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia early Christians such as Justin Martyr and Tertullian were struck by some of the similarities.

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10402a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10402a.htm[/url]

That account in the first post tries so hard to make the connections that it kind of seems to shoot itself in the foot but I have seen a much, much lengthier account that takes a bit more answering. Unfortunately I can't find it right now. At the time I read it, I came to the conclusion the author had picked up lots of tiny bits from many differing tales about Mithras and was, unsurpisingly, able to weave these into something resembling Christianity. However I don't know if that would necessarily satisfy people who are not already sympathetic to the faith.

Does anyone know of anything more conclusive? (And I know we're trying to prove a negative here but ...) I 've seen this Mithras business thrown up in religious discussions on several occasions.

Edited April 12, 2008 by Servant of the Secret Fire

[CatherineM]

Sounds like you have come across some folks from the Jesus Project. They are trying to "prove" who Jesus really was or wasn't. It sounds like they are honest theologians searching for truths, but they produce books like "the historical Jesus" by Crossan or "the real Jesus" by Johnson. They are every bit an attack on the faith the same as those atheists at the top of the best sellers lists are.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote]Mithras, not to be confused with Mitra ([i]the warrior angel of ancient Persia[/i]), was the head deity of Mithraism. Trying to piece together the actual legends relating to Mithras is difficult as the earliest evidence relating to him is only found in artistic reliefs- the original texts regarding Mithraism have long since been lost, leaving behind only fragments. For this discussion, we will focus on Roman Mithraism as this is the Mithras the critics claim as being the inspiration for Jesus ([i]although this allegation could easily be dismissed by showing most texts containing the alleged connections [b]postdate[/b] the Christian texts[/i]). Furthermore, Roman Mithraism surfaced centuries after the existence of the Hebrew Messianic prophecies.[quote][b]Note[/b]: The original authority on Mithraism was Franz Cumont who believed the Mitra of ancient Persian and the Mithras of Mithraism were one and the same. Most of his research was compiled in the 1800's and, because he was the first known scholar to explore the dead religion of Mithraism, his research went undisputed for quite awhile. If you look through early 20th century publications, one can see Cumont's findings were accepted without debate. It was only upon later investigation by differing historians and archaeologists that many of Cumont's theories were disproved. To see what I am referring to, read this article ( [url="http://83.1911encyclopedia.org/M/MI/MITHRAS.htm"]http://83.1911encyclopedia.org/M/MI/MITHRAS.htm[/url] ) from the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica which is based on Cumont's theories as compared to more modern research.[/quote][b]CAVE BIRTH[/b] As stated previously, there is no mention of Jesus being born in a cave anywhere in the canonical Scriptures. As for Mithras, he also was not born in a cave but from solid rock.

[b]DECEMBER BIRTH[/b] Many religious festivals were consolidated into one holiday to coincide with the winter solstice. Christmas is only celebrated on December 25th due to this tradition. This argument already proves to be insignificant as there is nothing in the Scriptures which mentions this date.

[b]ATTENDED BY SHEPHERDS[/b] The earliest existing account of Mithras' birth is found in a relief depicting him emerging from a rock with the assistance of men who certainly appear to be shepherds ([i]which is interesting considering his birth was supposed to have [b]preceded[/b] the creation of humans![/i]). But this little tidbit was added later, apparently by those who didn't notice the contradiction. Furthermore, this relief dates to [b]4th century A.D.[/b]!

[b]VIRGIN BIRTH[/b] There is no mention of a virgin birth in Mithraism. The earliest reliefs depict a fully-mature Mithras emerging from a rock ([i]as shown in three illustrations to the left[/i]).

[b]TWELVE DISCIPLES[/b] Mithras did not have twelve disciples, but I can relate a [b]far-fetched[/b] similarity to this allegation. In two of the reliefs to the left, Mithras is surrounded by the twelve signs of the zodiac. Claiming Mithras had twelve disciples because there are twelve signs of the zodiac is the connection critics try to make. The critics simply see twelve beings and claim the figures are disciples. Some go as far to defend their position by mimicking Franz Cumont's theory, claiming the figures were actually Mithras' twelve disciples dressed up in [u]zodiac costumes[/u]! How they can make this connection is unknown as no inscriptions accompany the original reliefs.

[b]GREAT TEACHER[/b] I can find no mention in any text or relief showing Mithras to be a traveling teacher. Regardless, it would hardly seem significant as many legends speak of mankind receiving wisdom from their gods.

[b]ATONEMENT OF SIN[/b] The claim regarding Mithras atoning for sin leads me to as the question, how? There is no mention of this in any record. Mithras does sacrifice a sacred bull to create life but I see no reference to the atoning of sin, the atoning of sin through blood, or Mithras atoning for sin. Some try to merge the bull and Mithras into one being but this concept is unanimously rejected by Mithras scholars.

[b]LAST SUPPER[/b] There are two reliefs which show Mithras celebrating a banquet. The first relief shows Mithras and Helios dining together after the sacrifice of the bull. The other depicts Mithras dining with the sun before ascending into paradise with the other gods. But for some reason the tale becomes distorted with Mithras saying to his ([i]imaginary[/i]) disciples, "[i]He who shall not eat of my body nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved.[/i]" Yet this quote was added centuries later during the middle ages and is not even attributed to Mithras!

[b]CRUCIFIXION[/b] Though critics claim Mithras was crucified, there is no mention of this in the reliefs or texts. In fact [b]no[/b] death is associated with Mithras, nevertheless crucifixion. We are told he completes his earthly mission then is taken to paradise in a chariot- alive and well.

[b]SUNDAY AS A HOLY DAY[/b] This appears to be correct, at least for Roman Mithraism. But considering almost every religion used Saturday or Sunday as a holy day, there was a 50/50 chance of this hitting the target- or at least a 1/7 chance for the number of days in a week. Christians selected Sunday as their holy day only because it was the day of Christ's resurrection.

[b]SIMILAR TITLES[/b] I did find some similarities but the claims critics make seem to be manipulated from their original form- there were no exact matches to the names critics list. I also listed other titles that are often cited but prove to be incorrect:
1. [u]Savior, Redeemer, Messiah[/u]. Mithras is never referred to any of these. Why would he be since he never served such a purpose? Messiah is also a Hebrew word which makes one wonder what the source is for this allegation.
2. [u]Lamb of God, Good Shepherd[/u]. Skeptics try to use the depiction of Mithras holding the sacrificed bull over his shoulders as evidence but this is absurd as the [b]bull is slaughtered[/b]! Furthermore, the Old Testament references lambs and shepherds long before Mithraism ever surfaced.
3. [u]Son of God[/u]. I didn't technically find this but I'll give it as a freebie if you consider Mithras as the son of Ahura Mazda.
4. [u]The Way Truth and Light, Light of the World[/u]. Though the names are not an exact match I did find warrior angel of light but this is associated with the [b]Iranian[/b] Mithras- not the [b]Roman[/b] Mithras of Mithraism.
5. [u]Lion[/u]. Again, not an exact match but I did find an association to [i]sky/celestial lion[/i], referring to the sign of Leo. But like the reference to lambs, the Old Testament mentions the Lion of Judah long before Mithraism ever originated.
6. [u]The Living Word[/u]. Mithras is sometimes called [i]logos[/i] which means word but never as the living word.
7. [u]Mediator[/u]. Mithras was the mediator between [b]good and evil[/b] whereas Jesus is the mediator [b]between God and man[/b].

[b]THEOLOGICAL COMPARISONS[/b] I consolidated the similarities that come standard in most religions into one section. For lack of a better title, we'll call this our stating the obvious list:
1. Mithraism had a strong sense of community among its members (only men were allowed to be members, by the way)
2.Mithraism taught the immortality of the human soul (so did Judaism which preceded Mithraism)
3. Mithraism placed emphasis on living an ethical and moral life (so did Judaism which preceded Mithraism)
4. Mithraism believed in the concept of good verses evil (so did Judaism which preceded Mithraism)
5. Mithraism taught all life sprouted from god(s) (so did Judaism which preceded Mithraism)
6. Mithras performed miraculous deeds
7. Mithraism taught the eventual destruction of the earth

[b]ERRONEOUS SIMILARITIES[/b] The following miscellaneous similarities exist neither in the ancient reliefs of Mithras or in any version of the surviving texts:
1.Mithras began his ministry at the age of 30 (no reference to any age is mentioned).
2. Mithras was buried in a tomb (Alive, I suppose?). The only reference I could find to this was every year
during the winter solstice, he was supposedly reborn out of a rock (but this tale was added later).
3. A Holy Trinity (Even with all sorts of new gods becoming associated with Mithraism over time, I can find no mention of any gods forming a specific trinity).

[b]CONCLUSION[/b] Once again, the alleged similarities are either superficial, completely fabricated, or stretched to make a match.
[url="http://www.thedevineevidence.com/jesus_similarities.html"]http://www.thedevineevidence.com/jesus_similarities.html[/url][/quote][quote]Though other authors go to great lengths investigating the claims listed in this discussion, my mission was to provide a brief synopsis that would help the reader distinguish between fact and fiction. Once the reader gets to the actual sources they will wonder how such claims even originated. If any of the critics cared to look into the facts for themselves before contributing to the propaganda, they would have been able to dismiss such claims immediately.Certain coincidences between Jesus and other figures can only be expected due to sheer probability.
[u][b]As a modern example, let's look at some of the coincidences between Kennedy and Lincoln as taken
from here[/b][/u]:
1. Lincoln was elected to congress in 1846. Kennedy was elected to congress 1946 (Whereas Kennedy had instant success in legislative and executive politics, Lincoln suffered many defeats).
2. Lincoln was elected president in 1860. Kennedy was elected president in 1960. (Considering presidential elections were held every four years, this only brings the odds to 1 in 20).
3. The names Lincoln and Kennedy both contain seven letters (Until we consider their first names which destroys this parallel).
4. Both were presidents during times of major changes in civil rights (So were their successors and several other presidents).
5. Both presidents were killed by an assassin's bullet on a Friday (This holds only a one is seven chance).
6. Both assassins were known by three names consisting of 15 letters (Each man was not always referred to by three names. This mainly surfaced after they gained notoriety following the assassinations).
7. Both assassins were killed before their trials (Booth was killed when captured. Oswald was killed days after his arrest).
8. Both men were succeeded by men with the surname of Johnson (Considering the popularity of the surname Johnson among white males, it would be no more of a coincidence by comparing two Muslim men who share the name Mohammed.)

Rhese coincidences may seem startling at first but really aren't that impressive once dissected. [u]But in 2000 years, will future civilizations look back on the "ancient Americans" and accuse Kennedy of being a figment of our imaginations[/u]? Will it seem we were so intrigued with Abraham Lincoln that we invented a character to mirror a great American hero? The intelligent mind who is willing to do the research and look for the truth behind such propaganda can easily find it. [url="http://www.thedevineevidence.com/jesus_similarities.html"]http://www.thedevineevidence.com/jesus_similarities.html[/url][/quote]This above article I think makes relevant and reasonable points. It likewise addresses them in a very honest and open manner. I was extremely impressed with how this was constructed and the simplicity of what is written. It gives for the idle reader something to look at when considering this kind of topic.

To the proposal that Saint Augustine thought they worshiped the same God as them, this would seem very skeptical since the article quotes this from a third source. To actually quote where Saint Augustine of Hippo actually wrote this would be more useful for criticism of this article. Saint Justin Martyr touched on this issue of similarities in his apologies, but nothing in the manner that they are suggesting here. If Our Lord did not exist and did not do what the Scriptures proposed, the Jews or Pagans would very early on make this very accusation.

If we read the apologies of Saint Justin Martyr we find that the pagans find NOTHING similar in belief of the Christians and accuse them of Atheism. So it seems on the surface to be anti-Christian propaganda that makes many claims without any direct quotations and appealing to a very massive argument that is easy to pick at. If it were not so “strong winded” in its claims against Christianity and been more honest, open, or objective in their conclusions it may seem more plausible (even though not much). Even still, if there was a figure just like Our Lord elsewhere or even before, that doesn’t necessarily prove anything unless one can show directly that Our Lord did not exist. Which, there is sufficient reason from those religious and even some historical texts that He did indeed exist.

Edited April 12, 2008 by Mr.CatholicCat

[prose]

That response is great!!

Thanks!