Carmel Closing

[praying4carmel]

[quote name='brendan1104' post='1499123' date='Apr 14 2008, 02:22 PM']I'm sorry praying4carmel, I know how much they mean to you. I know you're going to disagree with me here.

Brendan, I do, But not for the reasons that you would think, and I am grateful to you for your kindness and charity that comes through. Thank you, I can feel it.

But they seem to be in the same spot as what happened to Reno and Cleveland: a self-destructive immersion in the false spirit of Vatican Two, none of which was asked for by the Council or the Magisterium.

I will go to Cleveland in May, they are getting Vocations..should I enter we will be at 19. Unfortunately, I am a convert, so I do not feel qualified to speak about Vatican 2. I Simply do not know enough, to opine in any way that wouold be half way intelligent. I converted from the Episcopal church in 1985, I know what the old 1928 BCP was like and how I left because of those changes also I felt the Episcopal church was Rudderless. I also knew since 12 I wanted to be in religious life therefore The Lord led me to the Catholic Church as an Adult.

They took down their grilles, threw off their already-modified habit and then published (a practice now strongly condemned) an inclusive language breviary. I also read Cloister and Community.

True, yet I do love, the "Peoples' Companion to the Breviary" the LOH with Inclusive Language. People also forget that the Carmelites of Indpls typeset ICS pubs. until the advent of the Computer Typesetting.
I am not a traditional feminist with regards to Inclusive Language, But it touches my heart in a very deep way when I pray the Psalms that way. I am also comfortable with Traditional Language. I feel that the readings in the Breviary as well as the Intercessions speak to me about what I need to "pay attention to" in my daily Life in the Modern world. I am glad that you read "Cloister and Community". It is a wonderful book but I don't think Mary Jo Weaver really explained the feeling of Carmel that well. Just my opinion. I felt their book that they gave me for their 75th anniversary, felt like Carmel more. The spirit of Carmel was there.

They just won't get any (especially young) vocations unless they resume the Teresian habit and enclosure.

They did have several vocations but they left. That was heartbreaking for the Sisters. Those of us who are remotely interested in religious life, I am beginning to realize, have great courage and will still need to have more I feel, as the days continue on. The world holds many alluring things to distract people. I can understand why young people these days are attracted to orders with Habit and Enclosure.

Just look at Phatmass for proof: many of the young women have entered SSME, SSEW, PCPA or other similar communities in that they're not traditionalist, but traditional in their authentic religious life.

I don't believe St. Teresa of Avila if she were alive today and saw the Indianapolis sisters would imagine them to be Discalced Carmelite Nuns.

I disagree, Only because I have lived there and seen with my own eyes that they ARE Discalced Carmelite Nuns.
It's no picnic in Indpls. grille or no grille. They have a Deep Teresian prayer life. They are sisters that when you look into their eyes, you see that they have intimate knowledge of God, as well as Christ, and the Spirit. They have given themselves totally unselfishly to the city of Indpls and the world for many years in prayer. They touched many people's lives, and helped many renew their Love of Christ and the Church. I don't suppose that we will ever know the Lives touched until we see it face to face with our Lord at the end.
They saved my life and my Vocation, even though I will end up somewhere else. I am profoundly grateful.


Unfortunately, they've already spent so much money and time trying to figure out how they can save their community when there is a simple answer, and now they're forced to sell their beloved monastery... something which could have been avoided if they had stayed the course. As a wise Jesuit formation director told me, "Virtue is in the median." And so it is.[/quote]

Well I really screwed that one up so you will have to read all of Brendan's post to see my answers..

Financially, They're just fine. They have been Wise Stewards of their resources. However, a Stone Monastery is just not practical in these days of rising energy costs etc. The Archdiocese will make good use of the building.
Please know that Until a few years ago they had many more Sisters, who have now gone to their rest.

Edited April 14, 2008 by praying4carmel

[brendan1104]

Financially - I meant how they got that researching done, etc. which led to Pray the News.

The sisters who are now dead, I am sure entered long before the changes.

[praying4carmel]

[quote name='brendan1104' post='1499297' date='Apr 14 2008, 05:21 PM']Financially - I meant how they got that researching done, etc. which led to Pray the News.

The sisters who are now dead, I am sure entered long before the changes.[/quote]

I know that Pray the News largely came out of their effort to really intercede for the world. They are very knowlegeable on what's going on. Dinner conversations were lively!

Many of the sisters who entered came after Renewal, 2 transferred form other orders.

[brendan1104]

So what do you say about Carmels like Valparaiso, Buffalo, Alexandria, Ada Parnell, Georgetown, St. Louis, Dallas, etc. (mostly those in the St. Joseph Association) that are flourishing? Just a coincidence that they have the enclosure, full habit, Latin in the Mass and Office with chant, traditional Carmelite customs, etc.?

[littlesister]

Their building is modeled on Avila, which, if I recall correctly, was the intention of their benefactors at the time it was designed. That's why the outside resembles a castle/fortress. Inside - bright, spacious, beautiful grounds - and a lot or work. (Doing a delivery, we were fortunate enough to get into the Chapter Room one time. I was thrilled to my toes, having grown up near a walled Carmel that was the neighborhood mystery!
For those who wonder what their thinking was after Vatican II, there was a wonderful article by Sr. Jean Alice in "Origins" about 1984. Just search the archives. It's there. The desire was to be very much at the heart of the church in Indianapolis, and to pray for it and its priests with an awarenesss of real situations. Decisions were made with a lot of reflection and a lot of sincerity although the results, granted, were less than fully successful. It would be easy to think that Oldenburg was and is in similar
circumstances.
No judgments on anyone, please. There has been too much suffering in those communities already.

[shortnun]

[quote name='praying4carmel' post='1499303' date='Apr 14 2008, 02:30 PM']I know that Pray the News largely came out of their effort to really intercede for the world. They are very knowlegeable on what's going on. Dinner conversations were lively![/quote]
One of the most touching moments of prayer I've had was when visiting a cloistered community of nuns. One of the petitions at Mass made mention of war, drugs, and poverty. It was as if... I thought "Hey, they really are in touch with the outside world." And oh how we need their prayers.

[praying4carmel]

[quote name='brendan1104' post='1499414' date='Apr 14 2008, 07:45 PM']So what do you say about Carmels like Valparaiso, Buffalo, Alexandria, Ada Parnell, Georgetown, St. Louis, Dallas, etc. (mostly those in the St. Joseph Association) that are flourishing? Just a coincidence that they have the enclosure, full habit, Latin in the Mass and Office with chant, traditional Carmelite customs, etc.?[/quote]


I think they are wonderful too, and I am grateful that they are there. I am grateful to our Lord for ANY religious
Order we have in the Church right now.

[praying4carmel]

[quote name='shortnun' post='1499820' date='Apr 15 2008, 02:10 AM']One of the most touching moments of prayer I've had was when visiting a cloistered community of nuns. One of the petitions at Mass made mention of war, drugs, and poverty. It was as if... I thought "Hey, they really are in touch with the outside world." And oh how we need their prayers. [/quote]

Thanks Shortnun! Yes, we really do need their prayers today.

[Guest Perpetualove]

This is very, very sad news.

I am praying for them, as well as all of the Carmelite Monasteries in this country. I have heard repeatedly that the Kensington Carmel is in serious trouble, so I think they really need some help in the way of prayers.

I believe someone on this thread mentioned the Reno Carmel not doing well...I just looked at their website and they look fine to me. They have some new members, and it looks like they also have a postulant. I think their artwork is gorgeous, and I have always loved Sr. Joan Williams, OCD book "Growing Free, A Carmelite Remembers" - good book for anybody interested in Carmel.

Whatever the case, full or not, each and every religious order needs our prayers and support! I'm sure it is very hard for the Carmelites in Indianapolis to transfer...I have a friend at Stanbrook Abbey (UK), and they were forced to make the same decision (full habit and all!) - so I hope we remember all the communities (especially those entrusted with large and beautiful buildings) are dependent upon our prayers, as we are on their prayers...

Perpetualove

Edited April 15, 2008 by Perpetualove

[Guest ambrose]

Do correct me if I'm wrong: Stanbrook Abbey left their location because they are building another monastery, and not due to troubles...

[url="http://www.stanbrookabbeyfriends.org/"]http://www.stanbrookabbeyfriends.org/[/url]

[Guest Perpetualove]

Stanbrook Abbey is moving because the sad reality is that they could no longer afford to keep up the Abbey - I was there when the council and community made this decision.

The Abbey is quite large and the expense - not to mention the work involved - eventually led the community to re-evaluate their priorities and their lives as Benedictines (meaning - they realized the importance of the building and the significance of their particular history, so they needed to reflect on how they wanted to use their limited resources). The lack of vocations, not to mention the nuns that have died, transferred or left, also contributed - obviously. (I guess this goes without saying that if they had enough vocations, they would have the ability to keep up the Abbey as it had been in the past.)

They did make the promise at that time that they would try to "hold out" as long as possible in an attempt to find an appropriate buyer; they did not want to see their beloved and sacred Monastery sold as a "spa" or for some other kind of use. I have heard they did indeed sell it, but I don't know more than that. I'm sure someone else on this board will know.

Again, I must say...

Personally, I do not think it is fair to blame a community's painful decision to leave a beloved home should be blamed on their lack of habits or "perceived faithfulness" to their Rule or original charism. I find it really offensive that someone would make that connection; as if the nuns are being punished for their dress. The Kensington Carmel is considered to be one of the most traditional and faithful Carmels in the US and they are down to five/six nuns (I have heard the youngest is somewhere in her fifties). Some of the Poor Clare monasteries (PCC'S) were down to three, four sisters and eventually received help from the Federation and got transfer sisters. The faithful Benedictine nuns at Petersham are experiencing a serious dearth in vocations and their future is tenuous. So are the "traditional AND the moderate" IHM's in California - both of them have recently announced they would no longer be accepting vocations. What is the reason for these communities in full habit and traditional lifestyle not receiving vocations? What is God punishing them for?

There is a business side to religious life that few people stop to consider. I know when the Benedictines at Stanbrook were considering their options, one was to embark on a major fundraising drive like many other Communities. They decided as a community it was against the reason for their life and witness. I personally see this in California because this state demands strict rules for earthquake reinforcements; watching various communities go through capital campaigns for building upkeep and the like leaves one wondering. Many of the local communities are in serious debt due to their decision to keep up large/grand buildings and bring them to code. In visiting the various orders, habited as well as not, trying to see the vow of poverty in these brand new structures with air conditioning, automatic lights, gorgeous carpeting, professional food staff, etc. is very difficult. Many of our nuns live better than the average family in Los Angeles.

I have no doubt that the Carmelites of Indianapolis went through their options as well; and I can only imagine this was discussed, and obviously they came to the same conclusion as the Benedictines did. The Benedictines wrote a beautiful letter speaking of the integrity of their life vs. the building that held so much history that was private. They realized their decision would be controversial and sad for many, including themselves, but they were faithful to their witness.

By this time, it is pretty obvious I have visited more than my fair share of communities. I met the former Prioress of the Carmel of Indianapolis and while I didn't have the opportunity to know her as Praying4Carmel did, I respected and admired her. She was gracious, lovely, completely present and gentle. I would even go so far as to say I considered her (and still do) a very holy woman. The habit does not make the nun, unfortunately, because if that were the case, how easy holiness would be! Just dress the part. However, I don't doubt that for many, it helps, and that is their decision.

And finally, like Laudem, I am continually shocked by some of the blogs of fully habited nuns; with little to no sense of monastic decorum. Putting one of those blogs next to Praying The News says it all. One has thoughtful, deep reflections on current affairs and intelligent prayer resources, and the other is, at best, geared to very young women with silly antics. So, again, the habit does not guarantee holiness or faithfulness.

After the whole thread that was closed down after Praying4Carmel spoke about her discernment, I am in shock there continues to be insensitivity regarding this issue. This makes me so sad. If someone really harbors the belief that God punishes or withholds vocations based upon dress and tradition, perhaps a more charitable response would be: I will be praying for all concerned.

There is room for all of us in this great, big Church, and like I said before, if a community is really out of line or doing something wrong/abusive, the Vicar of Religious along with the Bishop and/or Cardinal will most certainly deal with it.

[jkaands]

I think that a number of Carmels are potentially in trouble in all of the associations, and probably including the non-affiliated.

If one takes the presence of 10 nuns or fewer as a sign of potential instability, and going by stats in th 2007 Guide to Religious Ministries (2008 is in the mail), for the St. Joseph's Association, the Carmels of Philadelphia, Morristown and Santa Fe all have 10 or fewer. Santa Fe has no website and I know is very conservative. Springfield MO in this assn is down to 4 nuns.

In the St. Teresa's association, 10 or fewer includes Salt Lake and Carmel, CA, the latter, like Santa Fe, has no website and is very conservative.

In Mary Queen of Carmel Assn, Sioux City in full habit has 10 or fewer.

Mobile, AL, in full habit, has 4 nuns.

Among the conservative Carmels which are growing, a number are in completely new monasteries built for them: Alexander SD, Denmark WI, Valparaiso NE. This may indicate that they are attracting applicants to their new monasteries in new suburban or rural locations. Hard to know.

And Carmels with modified habits which are growing include San Diego (14 professed), Piedmont OK and Baltimore, which has 15 professed.

There are a number of Carmels who do not appear to be affiliated, and have no website that I can find easily, such as Erie PA and Kensington CA. Hard to know their status.

I believe that the Indy Carmel decided to move and close some time ago. I noticed that their rather abstract, beautiful and difficult to navigate website had few personal touches about their lives--no "News" or "What's New", no newsletters or updates. And certainly no blog or videos of their beautiful, rather archaic-looking monastery.

[Marieteresa]

Some of the info you stated is incorrect

Alexanderia, SD did not have a monastery built for them but rather converted a former retirement home to their convent. They need to build a real monastery but they lack the funds to do so. Denmark is a foundation from Ada Carmelites and thus needed to build a new monastery because they never had one previously. Question about the Guide to Religious ministries are they counting those in formation?? I know IRL usually does not count those in formation but those who are professed.

Also, the Sioux City carmel is NOT in full habit.




[quote name='jkaands' post='1500890' date='Apr 16 2008, 12:43 PM']I think that a number of Carmels are potentially in trouble in all of the associations, and probably including the non-affiliated.

If one takes the presence of 10 nuns or fewer as a sign of potential instability, and going by stats in th 2007 Guide to Religious Ministries (2008 is in the mail), for the St. Joseph's Association, the Carmels of Philadelphia, Morristown and Santa Fe all have 10 or fewer. Santa Fe has no website and I know is very conservative. Springfield MO in this assn is down to 4 nuns.

In the St. Teresa's association, 10 or fewer includes Salt Lake and Carmel, CA, the latter, like Santa Fe, has no website and is very conservative.

In Mary Queen of Carmel Assn, Sioux City in full habit has 10 or fewer.

Mobile, AL, in full habit, has 4 nuns.

Among the conservative Carmels which are growing, a number are in completely new monasteries built for them: Alexander SD, Denmark WI, Valparaiso NE. This may indicate that they are attracting applicants to their new monasteries in new suburban or rural locations. Hard to know.

And Carmels with modified habits which are growing include San Diego (14 professed), Piedmont OK and Baltimore, which has 15 professed.

There are a number of Carmels who do not appear to be affiliated, and have no website that I can find easily, such as Erie PA and Kensington CA. Hard to know their status.

I believe that the Indy Carmel decided to move and close some time ago. I noticed that their rather abstract, beautiful and difficult to navigate website had few personal touches about their lives--no "News" or "What's New", no newsletters or updates. And certainly no blog or videos of their beautiful, rather archaic-looking monastery.[/quote]

[jkaands]

[quote name='Marieteresa' post='1500925' date='Apr 16 2008, 01:09 PM']Some of the info you stated is incorrect

Alexanderia, SD did not have a monastery built for them but rather converted a former retirement home to their convent. They need to build a real monastery but they lack the funds to do so. Denmark is a foundation from Ada Carmelites and thus needed to build a new monastery because they never had one previously. Question about the Guide to Religious ministries are they counting those in formation?? I know IRL usually does not count those in formation but those who are professed.

Also, the Sioux City carmel is NOT in full habit.[/quote]

Thanks for the corrections. i thought SC was in full habit from a pic I saw some years ago--I couldn't find a recent one.

The Guide includes those in formation if these numbers are submitted, but the monasteries may not submit them, thinking, correctly, that a bird is in hand only when finally professed. I personally think that orders should list those in formation, and list them as 'in formation'--this indicated activity and interest, even if they leave later. But of course it's the preference of each individual house. Not all submit numbers, either, or have websites. This is why I went with a total, rather than looking for formation numbers, unless these were included. Even a total doesn't tell the whole story. Ten young nuns will start a new house. Indy had 9 or 10 including one in her 50's, and has decided to close. The OP's in AL are starting up again with many fewer than 10. Covington LA (modified habit) was under 10, I think, when it had a bunch of vocations.

[Guest ambrose]

Thank you, Perpetualove for both correcting my mistake and for articulating yourself so well.