Why Do Certain Communities Object To Aspirancies?

[AccountDeleted]

Actually, trying to get time off from work for a live-in isn't all that easy. Entering as a postulant is easier in some ways because you don't assume that you are going back to your old life. since I just started working again 2 weeks ago, I will not find it easy to go for a weekend any place, let alone for up to 3 months! Aspirancy sounds great in theory but for those who have done it - how have you coped with trying to hang on to your jobs as well?

[awyers]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1497594' date='Apr 11 2008, 07:57 PM']I think that if I had been doing a three month live-in, instead of actually being a postulant, I would have left after three months, knowing that this was not the right "home" for me but without any feeling of being a failure.

Since leaving, I have had to deal with many feelings of loss and a sense that I was not "good enough". And now, even though I am still discerning, I am carrying around this baggage of being a failure at religious life, and confirming the predictions of those who said I wouldn't make it. I know I shouldn't feel this way, but the emotional baggage is not easy to unload.

Communities who don't allow live-ins are afraid that "once you get to know us, you won't like us" and won't come back.

For those who are impatient like me, the temptation is to go for what is easy and quick -- like everything else in this world - instant coffee, instant vocation[/quote]

Thanks for this post nunsense. I had to smile as it was like reading my own mind! In my limited experience with the community I was with I can say that looking back I wish there had been an opportunity for an aspirancy. Like you said, if I had done a live-in experience rather than actually being a postulant I would have been able to leave with a greater sense of peace and wouldnt have such feelings of being a faliure and having to deal with so many people saying 'I told you it wouldnt work out' etc.
24 hour retreats are lovely but they do not give you the slightest feel for the life and the only opportunity for seeing the sisters in action is once you are accepted and go on pre-postulant week. Although the idea of pp week is great it is like a giant pep rally and doesnt resemble their true life in the least. I suggested that the community might want to be a little more open about their life before leaving but we shall see what comes of it
Since being home my desire for religious life continues to grow and like you said, for us impatient ones we want the instant, what is quick and easy and I am tempted to jump right back in again but I know that an extended process with an aspirancy/candidacy would be a much better idea for me. I suppose it varies for each person. Just my 2 cents

[praying4carmel]

Was told by Cleveland Carmel that If a person is invited back after "come and see" then you are invited for 6-8 week live in..wonderr if it is the same with other CCA Carmels. I will have to find out when I go to Cleveland in May.

Interesting question..

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='praying4carmel' post='1497823' date='Apr 12 2008, 08:39 AM']Was told by Cleveland Carmel that If a person is invited back after "come and see" then you are invited for 6-8 week live in..wonderr if it is the same with other CCA Carmels. I will have to find out when I go to Cleveland in May.

Interesting question..[/quote]

Terre Haute is similar. I was told to come for a weekend "come and see" and then we would consider a live-in of up to 3 months. But I just don't know how I will be able to take that much time off work and still keep this job. It would mean leaving this job and then trying to find another one when I got back - scary for me since this is such a good job and the people are so good to me. I am also borrowing a car right now but if I left for 3 months, by the time I got back, the car might not be available any more. I am trying not to think about these things - just taking it one step at a time. That's why entering directly as a postulant was so much more attractive to me too -- I didn't have to think about getting a leave of absence from work, etc.... L o v e is the only thing that makes any of this possible!

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Piobaire' post='1497796' date='Apr 12 2008, 07:23 AM']Thanks for this post nunsense. I had to smile as it was like reading my own mind! In my limited experience with the community I was with I can say that looking back I wish there had been an opportunity for an aspirancy. Like you said, if I had done a live-in experience rather than actually being a postulant I would have been able to leave with a greater sense of peace and wouldnt have such feelings of being a faliure and having to deal with so many people saying 'I told you it wouldnt work out' etc.
24 hour retreats are lovely but they do not give you the slightest feel for the life and the only opportunity for seeing the sisters in action is once you are accepted and go on pre-postulant week. Although the idea of pp week is great it is like a giant pep rally and doesnt resemble their true life in the least. I suggested that the community might want to be a little more open about their life before leaving but we shall see what comes of it
Since being home my desire for religious life continues to grow and like you said, for us impatient ones we want the instant, what is quick and easy and I am tempted to jump right back in again but I know that an extended process with an aspirancy/candidacy would be a much better idea for me. I suppose it varies for each person. Just my 2 cents [/quote]

A lady came to stay with us for a live-in while I was at Carmel. She stayed for 6 weeks and I think that she got a pretty good picture of what life was like there. I think that if I did something like that - it would help a lot. This lady loved the community, but since returning home, she has emailed me a couple of times and said that as much as she liked them, she wasn't sure she had found her "home" yet. So I think these live-ins can save everyone a lot of anguish. The community doesn't get so upset at a live-in person leaving, like they do when a postulant or Novice leaves, and the person doesn't feel like a failure. I think it is a win-win situation for everyone. And 6 weeks isn't that long away from work either.

[AccountDeleted]

Another thought I just had was about a lady who entered a week after I did. She was only there for a week and it was obvious that she wasn't happy, so Mother Prioress had a talk with her and the next thing I knew, she was gone - without even happy goodbyes. Compare that with the lady who came for her 6 week live-in and then left. We had a party the night before she left, and then all gathered at the enclosure gate to hug her and say goodbye when she left.

Now the first lady was so sweet and kind to me, helping me with the Office and really just so charitable. I would have loved to have been able to hug her and say thanks, but obviously there was a sense of "failure" about her departure, and I can only think it is because she entered as a postulant and then left, rather than as a live-in. It was as if her leaving was an embarassment - and we never heard from her again, even by letter! The live-in lady however, stays in touch with the community and everyone prays for her, and she for them.

This just tells me that there is a lot of value in "testing the waters" before making a commitment - that way everyone can feel good even if the decision is not to enter or stay! I still think about that first lady and pray for her that she has found where God wants her - she was just so kind to me and I so hope she doesn't feel like a failure because of her experience.

[Graciela]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1497893' date='Apr 12 2008, 11:56 AM']A lady came to stay with us for a live-in while I was at Carmel. She stayed for 6 weeks and I think that she got a pretty good picture of what life was like there. I think that if I did something like that - it would help a lot. This lady loved the community, but since returning home, she has emailed me a couple of times and said that as much as she liked them, she wasn't sure she had found her "home" yet. So I think these live-ins can save everyone a lot of anguish. The community doesn't get so upset at a live-in person leaving, like they do when a postulant or Novice leaves, and the person doesn't feel like a failure. I think it is a win-win situation for everyone. And 6 weeks isn't that long away from work either.[/quote]


I agree that live-ins or aspirancies are great, especially for cloistered communities. I did one before I entered Carmel as a postulant, but then after 8 months I chose to leave, still feeling like a failure and basically an idiot. But the nuns told me stories of many who entered as postulants (in the days before a live-in was allowed) and didn't stay through the week! Now, it seems that a live-in would have helped avoid that!

In retrospect, I would say that I was able to keep the "stars in my eyes" for my 6 week live-in, but over months the unhealthy problems became unavoidable. OTOH, I learned so much and even though that place was not for me, the experience deepened and enriched my spiritual life and has opened my up for many surprises that God has had for me since then.

Aspirancies aren't a guarantee, but I think they are a very good idea. And initial formation will still be a time of ongoing discernment.

[HeavenlyCalling]

I think that a come-and-see or a aspirency is a good idea, however, I also think that if you leave at the end of our postulency ( from what I have heard 6mon. to a year ) there is no real shame in it. You have seen what the life is like without making any permenant commitment to the community ( like vows, for example ). Its not like leaving after making vows, where there is an offical prosses, your departure can then go fairly smoothly.

Edited April 12, 2008 by HeavenlyCalling

[jkaands]

[quote name='Marieteresa' post='1497448' date='Apr 11 2008, 05:48 PM']I know that with Carmel most of those who observe the 1990's constitiution usually do not allow aspirancies. Iam aware that some places do not have a guestroom like Iron mountain those who visit would usually have to make arrangements in town. Anyway, I was just wondering how this would disrupt their contemplative life with an aspirant. Also, one community I spoke with on this matter stated that they experimented with aspirancies and noticed that most did not preserve. I guess what didn't work for some doesn't work for all...?[/quote]

I don't understand the logic behind this. It's better if you leave as a [i]postulant[/i] rather than as an aspirant?

And as for the argument that you're more likely to 'stick it out' as a postulant, if you're having so much trouble then, what then down the road a few years...?

[Marieteresa]

From what I understand many communities consider the postulancy as the aspirancy.

[puellapaschalis]

Isn't postulancy simply the time where the looking, the asking, the seeing, the dipping-ones-toe-in get done? It's at Clothing that someone becomes part of the community and even then you're not bound to stay.

I've seen many communities which seem to have constructed rather elaborate mechanisms, gradually lengthening further and further the period of initial formation in the order. On the one hand I can understand some of the reasoning for this, but on the other - if there was just less stigma about leaving during one's postulancy, wouldn't people be under less pressure?

And - dare I say it - maybe if such a hoo-haa and song and dance on places like VS weren't made about someone entering the postulancy, maybe it wouldn't contribute to a sense of failure if someone leaves?

[Carolyn]

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1498170' date='Apr 12 2008, 04:54 PM']On the one hand I can understand some of the reasoning for this, but on the other - if there was just less stigma about leaving during one's postulancy, wouldn't people be under less pressure?

And - dare I say it - maybe if such a hoo-haa and song and dance on places like VS weren't made about someone entering the postulancy, maybe it wouldn't contribute to a sense of failure if someone leaves?[/quote]

Good point.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1498170' date='Apr 12 2008, 03:54 PM']Isn't postulancy simply the time where the looking, the asking, the seeing, the dipping-ones-toe-in get done? It's at Clothing that someone becomes part of the community and even then you're not bound to stay.

I've seen many communities which seem to have constructed rather elaborate mechanisms, gradually lengthening further and further the period of initial formation in the order. On the one hand I can understand some of the reasoning for this, but on the other - if there was just less stigma about leaving during one's postulancy, wouldn't people be under less pressure?

And - dare I say it - maybe if such a hoo-haa and song and dance on places like VS weren't made about someone entering the postulancy, maybe it wouldn't contribute to a sense of failure if someone leaves?[/quote]


I'm only speaking for myself here but the enthusiasm on VS isn't the reason that a person has a sense of failure after leaving the postulancy - at least for me it wasn't. I have actually found VS to be totally supportive, no matter what phase I am going through. My sense of failure comes entirely from myself and no one else is to blame. Even the community was fantastic to me, and I am still in contact with them via email.

The difference between aspirancy (live-ins) and postulancy (at least for the Carmel I entered) is that a person can be invited for a live-in without any sense of long-term commitment whereas postulancy is expected to lead to Novitiate and later to vows so seems a bit more serious (at least to me it felt that way). Perhaps the postulancy was once considered more of an aspirancy, but I think that it is viewed more seriously these days. I know that at the Carmel I entered, the Chapter must meet and vote on accepting a person as a postulant, but a live-in can be done with just the approval of the Prioress (although the community is polled unofficially to get their feelings - but the Prioress can override this).

I know that if I went to a Carmel now on a live-in visit, I wouldn't expect to make a decision about applying to enter right away (sort of like dating), whereas if I was accepted directly as a postulant again (which I wouldn't want to do anyway), then I would feel as if I had made a choice (sort of like getting engaged). I think it is harder to break off an engagement than to just stop dating someone. What do you all think?

Edited April 13, 2008 by nunsense

[Guest ambrose]

I think your thoughts sound on track, nunsense. The analogy of courtship/etc works well, because indeed this is a *relationship* being established between an individual and a community rather than a radical lifestyle change. (though that too)

Being careful to remember I have limited experience with cloistered life (i.e. none), I assume, and note the word assume, that the lack of aspirancy might be motivated by a desire to preserve Cloister to it's fullest extent.

And again, another outsider assumption would be that whether a sister stays in the life or not probably depends on many variables. Aspirancy probably helps a little with discernment, however there's likely lots and lots of factors to determine whether a sister stays for life. Or not.

Side note: I am glad you've found VS supportive. You rock!

[irishdancer]

I'm smiling and a wee bit anxious as I write this. First of all, I too find VS very supportive. During the past year--while I lurked about--VS and Phatmass was the only place that I found a community of encouragement for the crazy idea of becoming a nun that wouldn't leave me in peace. Learning about the hopes and experiences of others has helped me see that discernment is just that...a process of listening and looking deeply with the help of those who have gone there ahead of me.

But I also have cheered for each brave heart as she/he takes the next step of entrance. And I am tremendously grateful for all who are open about your experience wherever it takes you. I'm still cheering for you. And I want/need you to cheer for me. The world --and I use this term in trepidation--does not give much affirmation for choices it neither respects nor values. Let us do that for each other as we strive to be faithful to whatever the Lord has called us to.

As for the come and see, The community I am discerning with requires it, although you do not stay in the enclosure but may enter it to work etc with the Sisters. It is open-ended although I think under one month would not be acceptable. Ann, please pray for her, who is entering this week stayed four months. I can only do two before family obligations --parent's wedding anniversary party-- require me to leave for a while.

But it should give me a feel for the community and them one for me as we live the Norbertine life together. And I continue to rely on your prayers and support although I won't be online while at the monastery. I promise to report back no matter what happens.

Michaela

Edited April 13, 2008 by irishdancer