Why Do Certain Communities Object To Aspirancies?

[Marieteresa]

I recall someone on PM mentioning something about communities and aspirancies (or live-ins). Anyway, I asked a good friend of mine who is a Carmelite nun, about why certain communities object to live-ins or aspirancies. I was told that in regards to Carmel that aspirants interfere with the contemplative nature of the nuns and that these aspirants usually do not preserve. Also, those who entered without an aspirancy usually had the determination to preserve. Has anyone else heard of these objections or have heard any other reasons why live-ins are unsuitable? Thanks!

Edited April 11, 2008 by Marieteresa

[Mari Therese]

I went for a live-in experience with some contempletive/active sisters. I was still very separated from the other sisters. I had to eat separately with the vocation directress, and I slept in a room that was part of their home for the elderly. I was only allowed to go into the convent chapel to pray with them. The postulants and novices have very little contact with the professed sisters. They live separately in a house. The explanation that I got was that, it's like your dating a boy. You don't go over to their house for the first time and see everything about their parents bedroom.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

I've never had that experience before. All the communities I know positively encourage aspirancies/live-ins. They won't usually consider a candidate who doesn't stay with them for a little while first.

[alicemary]

Sounds like they are making excuses. You could stay on the extern part of the house as they did in the past at Carmels. I would never consider a community that did not allow me to come in and see what they were all about. It is obvious they are not open to having anyone in their enclosure, and would you want to enter such a place? Novitiates are always seperate. Seems to be working for the Summit Dominicans. And how do they really know you if they don't see you early in the morning before your coffee or late at night when you are tired, or when you have a spell of homesickness. Nope, sounds like they are so far back in the dark ages, not a place to explore to ME(so no nasty comments please)

[Marieteresa]

I know that with Carmel most of those who observe the 1990's constitiution usually do not allow aspirancies. Iam aware that some places do not have a guestroom like Iron mountain those who visit would usually have to make arrangements in town. Anyway, I was just wondering how this would disrupt their contemplative life with an aspirant. Also, one community I spoke with on this matter stated that they experimented with aspirancies and noticed that most did not preserve. I guess what didn't work for some doesn't work for all...?

[AccountDeleted]

Speaking as a person who did NOT do a live-in prior to entering, I have to say that I would never do this again. It is not that there was anything wrong with the community, but some of you might recall that after four months, I left for two weeks because I was having a hard time. I think I knew that this was not the right place for me, but I was so close to clothing and I just told myself that I needed to try harder. So, I re-entered and lasted another four months before finally leaving.

Now, although I don't regret a moment of actually being there - and the clothing was fantastic, I think that if I had been doing a three month live-in, instead of actually being a postulant, I would have left after three months, knowing that this was not the right "home" for me but without any feeling of being a failure.

Since leaving, I have had to deal with many feelings of loss and a sense that I was not "good enough". And now, even though I am still discerning, I am carrying around this baggage of being a failure at religious life, and confirming the predictions of those who said I wouldn't make it. I know I shouldn't feel this way, but the emotional baggage is not easy to unload.

Communities who don't allow live-ins are afraid that "once you get to know us, you won't like us" and won't come back. If a community is experiencing a lot of live-ins who do not come back - maybe they need to ask themselves why this is happening instead of getting rid of live-ins! It might be that the community needs to address some issues - they could do what the business world calls an "exit interview" with each candidate to find out if their concerns are similar or totally different.

When I spoke to a Carmel here in the US about this, the Novice Mistress told me that they consider it important to help each person discern their vocation according to what God wants for them, even if that meant that they didn't eventually choose that particular Carmel -- so they definitely insist on live-ins (after an introductory two day visit first). I think this is a very healthy attitude and it makes me want to go do the live-in there!

For those who are impatient like me, the temptation is to go for what is easy and quick -- like everything else in this world - instant coffee, instant vocation. As I said before, I don't regret my time in Carmel, but I know that it was my own impatience and wanting to be in control of my life that lef me to enter a place where I had never even visited! All I can say with my 20/20 hindsight is "bad idea, girl!"

Edited April 12, 2008 by nunsense

[Graciela]

[quote name='Marieteresa' post='1497448' date='Apr 11 2008, 06:48 PM']I know that with Carmel most of those who observe the 1990's constitiution usually do not allow aspirancies. Iam aware that some places do not have a guestroom like Iron mountain those who visit would usually have to make arrangements in town. Anyway, I was just wondering how this would disrupt their contemplative life with an aspirant. Also, one community I spoke with on this matter stated that they experimented with aspirancies and noticed that most did not preserve. I guess what didn't work for some doesn't work for all...?[/quote]


It does make me chuckle and roll my eyes when communities use the "they did not persevere" as an excuse. I have seen Carmels that have said that about older vocations, such as this from Clearwater Kansas Carmel (from the IRL VocationSearch website) "There have been some belated vocations to Carmel since the time of our Holy Mother Saint Teresa, but generally they do not persevere" (!)

SO, what might it say about a community that they are willing to reject something that goes back to Teresa's day? My opinion is that it may indicate a level of inflexibility that would make me wonder about all aspects of their life and so I might well consider them an unhealthy community. Similarly, the refusal of aspirancy also brings in questions of secrecy and control that can be unhealthy in groups. I admit there are some concepts from social psychology that I do find helpful in thinking about religious communities.

Graciela

Edited April 12, 2008 by Graciela

[Saint Therese]

Wow. I didn't even know that some communities didn't allow them.
I don't think I would feel..comfortable with a community that wasn't open to some sort of short term live in experience. It seems to me that especially for cloistered religious, it would be a necessary experience for getting to know the community.

Edited April 12, 2008 by Saint Therese

[DameAgnes]

This is not a criticism either way - personally I think I'd prefer to "have" a live-in experience rather than not - but it is interesting, isn't it, to note that "once upon a time" there was no such thing as "live-in" before entering. Back in the day when a postulant entered, it was the very first time she'd gone through the enclosure or seen the abbess or novice mistress beyond the "parlour".

But then again, back then, our mindsets were also quite different, I think.

Again...not a judgment. Just noting how things change.

[Sister Rose Therese]

Our community used to have an aspirancy program, back in the 50s and 60s I think. But it was designed mostly for those who were quite young. Girls 15,16 and 17 years old could live with the Sisters as Aspirants and finish up their highschool before entering as postulants. It seems to me that many communties had similar programs at the time and this may be why you see communities objecting to them. Their idea of what aspirancy is might be different from yours. The postulancy is really supposed to be a time of questioning, where the word postulant comes from, to come and see how it is before trying to enter.
I can understand that it would be harder to get to know a cloistered community before entering the postulancy than an active, but I can also understand cloistered communities needing to maintain that separation from the world. They do have to have limits on who is allowed to live in the cloister.

[Guest ambrose]

Wow - I never knew some communities didn't have aspirancy. Thanks for teaching me something.

[Thomist-in-Training]

Yeah, it's never bothered me any more than the whole idea of being cloistered would. I think "My Beloved" helped. That's a book by a Carmelite nun from the 50's... she writes about her entrance: she's talked to them a few times in the parlor and made her application, been accepted, shows up with her nightgowns or whatever, she hugs her mom goodbye, they open the enclosure doors, there are two nuns handing her a crucifix and saying "Passio Christi, conforta me," and she's entered! Plunged right in. I mean, St. Therese didn't have an aspirancy... Lots of women didn't. It seems a bit artificial to me, and when someone asked me about it I wasn't really sure if I would have wanted to do it. As Sr. Rose Therese says, I think postulancy may fulfill that function. (She knows much more about it than I do, of course!)

[alicemary]

When I read stories of how it was before it gives me the chills. Yes, it was all very secretive. I was looking at cloisters back in the 1970's. You were lucky to see photos of how it was. And do you know how many woman romanticized the life? I sure did. I thought nuns walked on water, lived on rose water and did not eat. Until I got to know a group very well and then my ideal nun was shattered. Driving a nun to the gynecologist also blew another one of my false preceptions. Nuns are flesh and blood woman. You may put a full habit on one, but they are all woman, with real issues.
When a community does not want people coming inside for a visit, something is wrong. I don't buy they don't want people intruding in their lives. As the person above said so well, maybe they don't stay because things are quite bad.
If you have an active order, there should be no excuse not to have someone live the life. I did many times and found the experience wonderful. And communities loved having people come and see.
As to the 1800's, Lord that is going back even before my time. Most woman back then lived very subservient lifestyles. Conditions were quite bad in their homes and marriages, and often entering a convent was a way out. It was tough living, but often better then they might have had at home. You just cant compare today with then. A woman had no possesions save the clothes on her back. Now 25 year olds have their own condo's. cars, cell phones and live without their parents influence for the most part. In the 1800's, a girl was bethrothed to be married when she reached puberty.
A very good discussion and very timely.

[philosophette]

[quote name='Thomist-in-Training' post='1497671' date='Apr 11 2008, 11:21 PM']It seems a bit artificial to me, and when someone asked me about it I wasn't really sure if I would have wanted to do it. As Sr. Rose Therese says, I think postulancy may fulfill that function. (She knows much more about it than I do, of course!)[/quote]

I just feel the need to say something here. As someone who has almost finished my aspirancy, I can tell you that there is nothing artificial about it. It does not make you any less a part of the religious community. It does not make you less 'on track' to nunhood or whatever; I have found myself feeling very, very grateful for this time of formation. I have had had many invaluable experiences and grown so much psychologically, socially, mentally, and spiritually.

Postulancy is the [b]first[/b] official canonical step which involves a deeper commitment to the charism and life; aspirancy is more flexible to the needs of the individual and not required by canon law. Postulancy serves as a "preparation" for novitiate. Aspirancy (or as we call it now, "candidacy") is a time of discernment. No guilt attached... at least with us. I am sure with other healthy orders, as well.

Sociologically the trend among most young adults these days is a reluctance to embrace total commitment, so it also gives us some more time to really accept the call and work through our discernment. I think it is nothing but a plus if an Order has it. In reality, initial formation for us (salesian sisters) is only 4 years (which includes a yr of aspirancy). That is NOTHING compared to the 40+ many nuns live after final vows! Taking the time during initial formation to really get to know yourself and the charism is definitely worth it. Savour every moment.

I would be cautious about judging orders that do not have an aspirancy, though. They may have historically never had such a thing... or had good reasons for doing without it, but if you are not at least allowed to do an extended come and see (an unofficial kind of aspirancy if you really feel the need) I would be cautious... but not totally set on dismissing. There is always room for misjudgment.

Edited April 12, 2008 by philosobrat

[Laudem Gloriae]

I don't know why so many are labeling orders/monasteries who don't allow aspirancies bad or suspect or whatever. It's really ridiculous. For the past 4 yrs, I have been in frequent (1-2xs a month) contact by mail (no email) and have had 2 visits that were over a week long each time, with the very wonderful Poor Clare Colettines in Cleveland, OH. They do not take aspirancies/live-ins as they take 4 vows (poverty, chastity, obedience and enclosure). I understood that from the first and respect that completely and they have NO trouble with vocations and women staying. In Mother Abbess just wrote on 2 who were recently clothed, another in first profession, one Solemn Proffession and 2 postulants soon to be clothed (and others like a Jubilarian).

Whether an order has a live-in or not isn't a way to decide if a monastery is good or bad. That's like saying every couple who live together before marriage will stay happily ever after married forever when most don't! Sure a live-in is good but there has been way to many odd comments about orders being not worthy or suspect if they don't have them.

When Mother Abbess told me this about no live-ins, I was actually pleased because I have come across way to many monasteries in various orders who claim enclosure and are quite the opposite! They have the public inside, they go out and so on. So this labeling across the board of being good or bad or questionable is not accurate nor right.