Hiding A Medal In A Mosque

[picchick]

[quote name='alicemary' post='1497432' date='Apr 11 2008, 06:30 PM']I think it is disrespectful toward another religion. And it treats the medals like they are some kind of heathen charm. Very strange idea and not appropriate. And when they are found they will be thrown in the trash or worse. Whats the point? The influence of Mary does not require a small circle of medal[/quote]
I totally agree with Alicemary.
the Miraculous Medal is not a charm. The muslims do not care to be converted if they see a medal. If anything they will destroy or desecrate the medal.


What is wrong with just prayers and prayers for intercessions? Why do we have to go and disrespect other's religion. Don't get me wrong. I know that part of their religion is to kill and what not but that does not make it right for us to go sticking out medals and sacred objects in their churches and mosques.

How do we feel when someone goes into our Churches and Masses and interrupt it with preaching like that one Pastor did? How do we feel when that one group went up and interrupted Mass in Chicago? How do we feel when Churches are blown up?

I think that prayer is what closes these mosques and churches. Prayers are what convert souls from miles away. Prayer is more important than any medal we stick anywhere.
Meg

[CoffeeCatholic]

I hide green scapulars in my parent's house all the time, along with any gifts I give to people who aren't Catholic (like pictures in picture frames- just stick it behind the frame). I do it openly too, by getting things like religious paintings I know someone will like, regardless of their religion, blessed and giving them away. It's fun work, this praying for souls!

[Ziggamafu]

The difference between a charm and a sacramental is virtually the same difference between magic and a sacrament. Sacramentals - and the sacraments from which they may derive their efficacious grace and to which they point - are different from magic and charms in that, used properly, they are not believed to have an infallible effect; that is, they are not believed to force God's hand.

The difference between the sacramental nature of the Church and magic is that, while both systems employ material elements and invocations toward a certain effect, one is of a faith that is entirely focused inward while the other is of a faith that is entirely focused outward; one is intent on controlling God or the powers of his creation while the other is intent on God's faithfulness and his own power to answer prayer; one attempts to bend God's will to our own while the other bends our will to that of God. While the magical system and the sacramental system both employ the same basic actions, the intent and offering of self is completely different.

Having said that, I find it curious that faithful Catholics would all but reject Church teaching on the subject. Sacramentals are a definite part of Catholic doctrine. Miracles worked through the use of sacramentals are a definite part of Catholic history. To ask "Why use a sacramental when I can just pray?" is similar to asking "Why go to Mary when I can just go to Jesus?" And of course the answer to both of these questions is that we are in fact offering more glory to Jesus - and indeed being more Christocentric - when we acknowledge and take advantage of the graces he has won for us in the undivided Body of Christ, with all its offices and powers.

[rizz_loves_jesus]

Hmm. I'm kind of stuck on this one. Didn't Our Lady tell people to put Green Scapulars in people's rooms/on their clothing without their knowledge if they didn't believe in Christ? Wouldn't this kind of be the same thing if she did?

[puellapaschalis]

Thanks for all your thoughts and contributions, folks.

As I said, this was all posted on another forum (it's not English-speaking, so it's not a Phatmass competitor ) and it generated many replies on both "sides".

Personally, I fail to see why tucking the medals away in a hidden spot in a mosque is in any way necessary for praying for Muslims, for their conversion (which I do quite happily - I mean Christ didn't suffer and bring about redemption so that others could just ignore it) and - yes, I think I might dare to say so - to replace it with Catholic Christianity.

But I'm just not convinced that the medal part is needed. It's the hiding it away like we're ashamed of it or something.

However, thanks again for the input (keep it coming if you have more thoughts!). I was simply concerned that my reaction to the idea was influenced by my opinion of the person who brought it up, hence my question to you all.

[CoffeeCatholic]

One thing about the medal which is worthy to note. I believe i remember Our Lady promising that whenever one is lost, one will be found. While I guess purposefully leaving a medal somewhere isn't "losing" it, I think Our Lady will probably work with the gesture. And what is better for conversion than for someone to receive from God a little nudge like that.

One year, when I was working at a Girl Scout Camp and considering conversion (though not acting like it), I went to go on my night off. My car had been locked with the windows up (to keep sneaky campers out) and only I had any keys. When I opened my door, there was a miraculous medal sitting on the driver's seat. And not a brand new looking one, either.

This was key to my conversion. I always said Mary "had it in for me" from the beginning (my birthday is the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe) but who knew? So, yes, leaving MM's is good. I don't really care where it is, it's good. And if it's in a mosque, even better- you can be pretty darn sure the person finding it is in need of Mary's mantel!

[zwergel88]

[quote name='Deb' post='1497784' date='Apr 12 2008, 06:36 AM']I am not really sure that those born into Islam in the middle east have ever been given a chance to even explore Christianity. They do not have the freedom to read the bible or walk into a church of another faith like we do.[/quote]


With the sole exception of Saudi Arabia, I thought that people from the Middle East were pretty much free to practice any faith they want and read whatever they want. The Middle East is the birth-place of Christianity after all so I think people living their pretty much know the basics; this is certainly true with anyone from the Middle East that I have ever known.

[Justin86]

[quote name='zwergel88' post='1498145' date='Apr 13 2008, 07:17 AM']With the sole exception of Saudi Arabia, I thought that people from the Middle East were pretty much free to practice any faith they want and read whatever they want. The Middle East is the birth-place of Christianity after all so I think people living their pretty much know the basics; this is certainly true with anyone from the Middle East that I have ever known.[/quote]
You need to read a copy of the Quran.

I believe most Muslim countries generally kill Muslims who try to convert to another religion. There also is a tax put on the "People of the Book" meaning Jews and Christians. There is of course no penalty for converting to Islam. That's how the Middle East defines relgious freedom for ya.

[Justin86]

To further continue the discussion on the medals.

Exactly why would anyone be offended by the discovery of a religious medallion at a place of worship? Why would anyone automatically assume it was put there as an attempt to evangelize in the first place? Even if they did, why would a medal offend anyone? The whole idea that this is somehow offensive is really silly.

[melporcristo]

JMJ

I have also heard some pretty amazing conversion stories about people who have found the Miraculous Medal in random places.

The Sisters of Life also told me about how they put Miraculous Medals underneath the tables of a gay bar that's located down the street from the Holy Respite of the Sisters of Life.

Edited April 12, 2008 by melporcristo

[puellapaschalis]

[quote name='Justin86' post='1498187' date='Apr 13 2008, 12:09 AM']To further continue the discussion on the medals.

Exactly why would anyone be offended by the discovery of a religious medallion at a place of worship? Why would anyone automatically assume it was put there as an attempt to evangelize in the first place? Even if they did, why would a medal offend anyone? The whole idea that this is somehow offensive is really silly.[/quote]

How would you feel if you came across a tiny copy of the Qu'ran hidden in your church? Or a set of Muslim prayer beads? What if it were tucked behind a statue of Our Lady? Or somewhere on the Sanctuary?

[picchick]

[quote name='Justin86' post='1498187' date='Apr 12 2008, 06:09 PM']To further continue the discussion on the medals.

Exactly why would anyone be offended by the discovery of a religious medallion at a place of worship? Why would anyone automatically assume it was put there as an attempt to evangelize in the first place? Even if they did, why would a medal offend anyone? The whole idea that this is somehow offensive is really silly.[/quote]

This is not silly by any means.

I think that it is fine to place sacramentals anywhere. But we must prudent as to where we put it. Do you honestly think that a muslim will not become offended if they see a Miraculous Medal? I bet that they will. Why else would a medal be in their Church? Someone visiting?

I am not offended. If you want to place green scapulars and medals in people's pockets, under pillows whatever. That is fine. But don't put it in a place where it might become desecrated. We are obligated to protect our sacramentals from becoming desecrated. That is why your bury rosaries and such.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='zwergel88' post='1498145' date='Apr 12 2008, 11:17 PM']With the sole exception of Saudi Arabia, I thought that people from the Middle East were pretty much free to practice any faith they want and read whatever they want. The Middle East is the birth-place of Christianity after all so I think people living their pretty much know the basics; this is certainly true with anyone from the Middle East that I have ever known.[/quote]

You're correct, Zwergel. There is no penalty for converting to another faith in any Middle Eastern country with the exception of KSA. However, in some countries it is much easier to convert than in others. Bahrain, Qatar, Oman and the United Arab Emirates tend to be all right with it. Bibles, Christian books, etc. are sold in bookshops there, along with texts from other religions. (Proselytising or distributing such items to the Muslim population for free, however, is not allowed.) Swathes of Yemen can be quite dodgy where conversions are concerned - I wouldn't like to try it if I lived in the Hadramout. Egypt is also surprisingly intolerant over conversions, given that it has a large minority of Coptic Christians. Nobody is killed for converting there, but numerous things may be done to make life difficult for you - hassle over identity papers, reduced chances at finding employment, difficulties over child custody in the event of a divorce, etc. In short, it depends on where you live.

[Justin86]

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1498212' date='Apr 13 2008, 08:34 AM']How would you feel if you came across a tiny copy of the Qu'ran hidden in your church? Or a set of Muslim prayer beads? What if it were tucked behind a statue of Our Lady? Or somewhere on the Sanctuary?[/quote]
I would assume a Muslim attended a Mass and left it there. So what if he's praying for my conversion? Again, how is that offensive?

I'm still trying to get over you people claiming I need to get permission to enter a mosque. Last time I checked all that was required of me was to take off my shoes.

Like I said, it's silly to make this even into an offensive issue. The best argument to made againist is the sacramentals might get descrated, and that all really depends on what the person who may find it decides to do with it. It's defintelty not written in stone. People have planted these in other places before with positive results. I say it's worth the risk.

[DemonSlayer]

Even if there are no official laws in most countries in the Middle East against other religions, you can still be severely persecuted in some places, look at the situation in Iraq, there are those trying to drive out or exterminate Catholicism there.