Is America The Greatest Nation On Earth?

[Maggyie]

Who was it, Churchill who said democracy is the lousiest form of government ever invented... except for all the other forms.

It has the ring of truth. I guess you could say that America is the worst country in the world, except for all the other ones.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i wasn't referring to france etc but to netherlands belgium sweden etc. as per freer.
countries like france etc are not socialist btw, even if they have things like nationalized health care. they just have socialist tendencies. they do not consider themselves socialist.

there's surely countries who's got america beat in terms of religion.


i don't like pointing to abortion only. but i'm not pointing to it only. plus, you have to concede it's a point that has america lost on. it has significantly more aboritons than other countries per capita. look at my past threads.

there's other countires that has america lost on in terms of morality surely

now, the poor are probably better off here generally than many. i might assume it's than any other country, but i think i'd be wrong. and even if i wasn't wrong, that alone is not what makes a country the best. material wealth is towards the bottom of what makes a country great.
here is this which says our poor are not the best off, and that i'd be wrong to assume the poor here have it best off....

[quote]The average cash income of the poorest 20 percent of Americans is $5,226; the average cash income of four major European nations--Germany, France, United Kingdom and Italy--is $19,708.

Genesis 41 is about the wisdom of instituting taxes, not cutting them. After Pharaoh had a dream that prophesied seven fat years to be followed by seven lean years, Joseph advised him to "appoint officers over the land, and take up the fifth part of the land of Egypt in the seven plenteous years...and lay up corn under the hands of Pharaoh." In other words, a 20 percent tax on the grain harvest would put aside food for use during the famine. Pharaoh took Joseph's advice, and Egypt avoided hunger during the famine.[/quote]
(it akes sense too... if the US rich are richer than everyone else how could that be if all factors are the same? the poor have less the rich have more. if europe became more capitalist, that'd happen there too, theoretically anyway)


plus all this hogwash about liberals making the US bad. maybe pure social liberals, but get a brain and realize that pure capitalism, if it allows things like people not beinga ble to afford a basic surgery bc of laissez faire capitalism is not moral, accoding to the popes. also, it's at least conceivable that a reasonable person would think helping the disenfranchised without becoming socialist is at least something that makes the country better.
people spend too much time thinking how they are told to think.

so... what's one thing hat makes the US better?
maybe on balance it's better,,, but no one's really given a godo explanation of how, other than by shooting off typical rhetoric about how it's rich and free. i'm putting econ data out there, abortion data etc. common sense stuff aout morality. what more do you want? no one else is doing any better from the other direction.

Edited April 12, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

catholic max. you're spouting off rhetoric. respond with stats.

it seems the only real point you have that the US is "obviously" better is that me and others don't leave. that proves nothing.
i stay because my family and life is here. most who live in other countries don't come here or want to for that reason, even if many do want to come here admittedly.
i stay because i think the US might be better, and would tend to think it. given all the reasons i've stated though, i don't see how it's the case that it's obviously better. germany could be better. why not? belgium. why not?
even if the poor were better off here, or i was better off economically here, and i stayed... it'd only be because i'm selfish to living in a coutnry that's well off, when i shouldbe supporting a country that's morally superior.
the euros got a higher value currency than the dollar.
are europeans clammoring to get to the US? i don't know. it's not obvious.


that you say things like "don't insult my momma", which has nothing to do with this thread... also augments that you robotically respond to and regurgitate rhetoric. (dig dum diss my religoion politics and my momma, i'll pull my gun on ya's) i feel like dissing your mom just cause you told us not to after telling us to leave the country. even if you meant it charitably...
i'd only be insulting your mom to make the point, "charitably" that you are grasping at straws to say it's obvious.

Edited April 12, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

with those stats i provided, even if taxes were higher, i doubt it would matter as much, cause we;d be making more... and our euro would beat the dollar.

also as far as rhetoric goes...there's a lot of pompous europeans who look down on america. so they don't think ti's great.
there's the idea that the US was strong after WWII only cause it didn't get stomped like europe did. europes gotten stronger since then. fifty years isn't that long ago but long enough to make a change significant. whether we're superior is questionable economically now. the down euro. we might be a big kid on the block, but are we quality ninja or just brawn?

malta is known as a catholic country. very religous etc. how is it that a catholic country is less great than the USA?
that you'd say on balance that everything makes it better, shouldn't be obvious to a godo cathlolic. only to a robotic patriot.

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Europe"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Europe[/url]

here's some other catholic countries that could be better than the US
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholicism_by_country"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholicism_by_country[/url]

now that i think about it, i remember that luxembourg is catholic as shown in the link. it's also known as the richest coutnry or therabouts in europe. why aren't they better? they're small, but that's about it

while you assume europe pays so much more in taxes as rhetoric suggests.... this might suggest that it's barely much different at least many times.
[url="http://www.lowtax.net/lowtax/html/jlxpetx.html"]http://www.lowtax.net/lowtax/html/jlxpetx.html[/url]
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States#Year_200_income_brackets_and_tax_rates"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in...s_and_tax_rates[/url]

Edited April 12, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='CatholicMax' post='1497371' date='Apr 11 2008, 10:17 PM']I will ask my Prof for the source i got the stats from him but didnt think it important enough to note. Also you should note that while you may live in the UK you dont have the same rights as they do and you some rights they dont. you are emigrating but not fully.[/quote]
I don't have the same rights while still on a visa, true, but I am considering actually becoming a citizen, which would give me the same rights as any other citizen. I would very much like for my son to have dual citizenship, seeing as England is his natal land.

[quote name='CatholicMax' post='1497371' date='Apr 11 2008, 10:17 PM']I dont think you understand how history should be structure and you this give you an idea that because they dont have "equal time" there is an imbalance(that is a very socialist idea of balance by the way). you need to first ask the question what is the purpose of history. I think once you understand that answer you can see really why focusing more on Western Civ is more important.

so What is the purpose of History. most people will say "to study the past". and that answer is... Completely wrong. it vague and has no real substance or meaning. the purpose of history is to allow me(the individual) to understand my past. this means that really when i begin studying history I need to begin with my immediate family the town i am an the history of the town. so on and so forth. then you go back and you look at the larger and larger society like circles within circles. so it is more important to study US History than it is to study Western History, and it is more important to study Western history than it is to study World History. Just like African countries should focus on Africa and Asian countries should focus on Asia. Its like layering with World History being the most general, and Local being the most specific. If you look at it like that it is not imbalanced at all. Anything you study you should be asking "how does this make me a better person" and "how does this relate to me. It is good to start in broad strokes but you need to narrow things down more and more because otherwise you cannot come to any conclusions about things[/quote]
I'm an archaeologist - I understand the purpose of history. While it is definitely important to understand that history more directly relating to our society & culture, it is also important to understand the history of non-western culture, to understand that not everyone holds the same ideals that we do. In this age when there is a great deal of global interaction, it would behoove us to know a bit of the historical background of those with whom we are interacting. I'm not saying we should study that to the exclusion of our own history, but that these things should also be covered.

[dairygirl4u2c]

arguably, a more objective measure...

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index[/url]

US fell from 6 to 12 since 2002
[url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2149799.stm"]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2149799.stm[/url]

i see that australia is up there... it's got the same religious demographics as the US, and a similar division of power structure too.

Edited April 12, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1497755' date='Apr 12 2008, 07:36 AM']arguably, a more objective measure...

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index[/url]

US fell from 6 to 12 since 2002
[url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2149799.stm"]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2149799.stm[/url]

i see that australia is up there... it's got the same religious demographics as the US, and a similar division of power structure too.[/quote]
That's very interesting. Maybe I should emigrate to Iceland instead (one of my friends has actually done that)

[apparent]

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=78885"]Is America The Greatest Nation On Earth?[/url]
yes, the land of plenty with streets lined with gold, physocially speaking of course.

remember:
[size=2][color="#9c9c63"][b]The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence [/b][/color][/size]

[tate4242]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1497285' date='Apr 11 2008, 02:17 PM']Well... we still got some Canadian identity left... maybe the renewal of the church will come from us? :P[/quote]

Yes, this is entirely possible. I am knd of unusual in that I was an atheist when I was very young. I got interested in the Bible through the teachings of Mr. Garner Ted Armstrong who taught me much about the Jewishness of the New Testament. After I found out through the writings of Dr. Raymond Moody that Mr. Armstrong's ideas on "soul sleep" were probably not even remotely close to the truth, I started to wonder is there is a Christian church that is close to my beliefs on the afterlife. As I furhter studied Judaism I found out that the Roman CAtholic Church is the closest to Judaism and to the near death experience material when it comes to teaching what happens to the dead after they leave this physical realm.

Both Canada and the USA have MUCH to learn from Poland when it comes to how to protect the unborn:

[url="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tate4CentralNova/message/4"]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tate4CentralNova/message/4[/url]
MP Peter Mackay. Did you become pro-Choice based on misleading statistics?

[quote]Honorable Minister, one important position on which I vehemently disagree with you Sir is that you stated that
you were pro-Choice on the issue of abortion.

I plan to run against you as an independent candidate in
the upcoming federal election. Winning would of course
be the best possible outcome but a close second would
be to see you Mr. Mackay reconsider all the new
information available and adopt a strong pro-Life stance.

I suspect that you may have decided to be pro-Choice based
on thoroughly misleading but impressive statistics that
abortion advocates casually spout.

"How many women died from illegal abortions? The head of one of the major pro-abortion organizations in the U.S. said: "In 1972 there were 1,000,000 illegal abortions and 5,000 to 10,000 women died from them." True? Or False?" (abortionfacts.com)

[size=5]The example of what has happened in Poland between
the years 1990 to 1994 is of and by itself sufficient reason
to abandon your pro-Choice stance![/size]

[url="http://www.abortionfacts.com/online_books/love_them_both/why_cant_we_love_them_both_27.asp"]http://www.abortionfacts.com/online_books/...hem_both_27.asp[/url]

"I’d still worry that if you forbid abortion, it will just go back to back-alley butchery and lots of mothers dying."

[size=5]"We’ve had an example of an entire nation in recent years. It was Poland. Under Communist rule in the ’80s, there were consistently over 100,000 abortions registered each year as compared to about 600,000 births. With the establishment of some self-government in 1990, with both the Church and doctors discouraging abortion, the numbers fell to 59,400.

Let’s list the 1990 figures and then look ahead to 1994, the second year after abortion was forbidden except for danger to the life or health of the mother, rape and fetal handicap. [/size]

1990
Total abortions 59,417
Women’s deaths connected with pregnancy 90
Miscarriages 59,454
Cases of infanticide 31
Births 546,000

1994
Total abortions 782
Women’s deaths connected with pregnancy 57
Miscarriages 49,970
Cases of infanticide 17
Births 482,000

[size=5]"During this time the number of registered abortions declined to 176th of what it had been, and there was not a single death due to illegal abortion. All of these figures are exactly opposite of what International Planned Parenthood people in Poland predicted when the restrictive law was passed."[/size]

At this site if you will click on link 14 - "Fetal Pain" you will
certain see another good reason to become an anti-abortion
candidate. Powerful evidence suggests that unborn babies
experience pain AT ONLY EIGHT WEEKS!

Thank you for your consideration of this matter and I look
forward to the honor of discussing this question further
with you at the debate.[/quote]

[dairygirl4u2c]

this says 250k people apply for US citizenship each year. the other link says 150k apply to UK citizenship. so, per capita, the UK's got US beat by a heck of a lot. and canada's got 160k per year.... so they also per capita have the US beat.
just one example.

[url="http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:Fc_ZEszyjHcJ:www.facli.unibo.it/NR/rdonlyres/0F501637-F48A-4458-AA1A-8172EF98DF40/87790/May2007grammarVersionB.doc+%22people+apply+for+*+citizenship%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us&client=firefox-a"]http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:Fc_ZE...lient=firefox-a[/url]
[url="http://ecitizenship.us/"]http://ecitizenship.us/[/url]
[url="http://www.lambic.co.uk/blog/archives/2005/05/those-poor-immigration-people/"]http://www.lambic.co.uk/blog/archives/2005...gration-people/[/url]

Edited April 12, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[Archaeology cat]

I found a something regarding emigration from the US to other countries. This source admits the data is difficult to truly analyse, though.

[url="http://unstats.un.org/unsd/demographic/meetings/egm/migrationegm06/DOC%2019%20ILO.pdf"]http://unstats.un.org/unsd/demographic/mee...%2019%20ILO.pdf[/url]

[XIX]

[quote]Alright here is my challenge to you. If America is not the greatest country which country would you rather live in?[/quote]
I think it was sister Lucy who said this: "In Portugal the dogma of the faith will always be preserved." I would cite that, but (annoyingly) I can't find anything on Fatima that's not from some rad-trad site, trying to preach about "the real third secret!"
[quote name='CatholicMax' post='1497720' date='Apr 12 2008, 02:14 AM'][b]AND IF YOU DONT AGREE GO SOMEWHERE ELSE.[/b][/quote]


As a point of fact, believing that so-and-so country is a better country than the United States =/= wanting to leave the United States. Most Americans, for example, can not speak Portuguese. They have friends here, they might have a house here, they probably have family here. Personally, I would rather live in the US just because that's where I grew up my whole life, and it would be near impossible for me to uproot myself and emigrate to Europe. I'd have to learn a new language, maybe find a new career, and generally start my whole life from scratch. Most others would be in the same boat.

[XIX]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1497715' date='Apr 12 2008, 01:59 AM']i bet mexico is pretty religious. so, is greatness measured by material wealth?

i mean, the US has so many abortions, and is not as religous as many other countries, or as free. material wealth is the only area it's got anyone beat.

mexico is more religous. belgium has a lot fewer abortions, and is much more free. most of those northern europe countries are freeer.

maybe in the totality of the circumstances the US is better. but i don't htink it's obvious.[/quote]
True. America does not have one of the better abortion rates in the world.

[XIX]

[quote name='CatholicMax' post='1497347' date='Apr 11 2008, 05:45 PM']and why is that?[/quote]
Playoff hockey get much better coverage and hype in Canada. Basically because I like hockey. That's all

[Lena]

[quote name='Deb' post='1496738' date='Apr 10 2008, 09:31 PM']Only in our own minds.[/quote]

that's basically it.