Is America The Greatest Nation On Earth?

[BeenaBobba]

CatholicMax brought this up on the racism thread, and since it was OT, I decided to make another thread for it with my reponse to his comment.

[quote]You are mistaking the powerplay of a minority which has forced a majority to accept certain practies. The majority of Americans do not support abortion.[/quote]

Do you have any statistics to back that up? I couldn't find any, but I remember reading that the two groups were (unfortunately) pretty close, statistically speaking. Either way, that doesn't change the fact that millions of babies die each year from abortion here in the United States. That's nothing to be proud of. I'm sure you'd agree with that.

[quote]and last time i checked we did not torture people. I know you may want to claim water boarding is torture but its not. torture has long term physical and psychological ramification a recent study which was done independently from the government on water boarding revealed that there is no long term psychological or physical side effects to water boarding. you are subjecting the individual to duress for the purpose of extracting information, I have no problem with insighting fear in an individual either through body language or Illusion(water boarding causes the illusion of drowning.) to extract information that saves lives.[/quote]

Dude, that's a whole other topic in and of itself, but suffice it to say that I vehemently disagree with you on that. I'll try to respond to this paragraph later on the torture thread if I have time.

[quote]Civilized from a historians definition (the only currently objective definition) is a technologically advanced country. and you are hard pressed to find a country that is as powerful as us, as wealthy as us or technologically advanced as us let alone all three together.[/quote]

Well, honestly, I don't think definitions like that can be described as objective, per se. All the same, assuming that your definition is correct, then yes, I'd agree that America is a civilized country. But if one defines civilized as the opposite of barbarism, with enlightenment being implied, then I'd disagree that America is civilized.

[quote]I would like to see you argue the point you say is arguable because i dont think it can rationally be done. and as for the lose of the soul of America we ARE the most religious country that is next to Islamic states where religion is compulsive. so... ya we got the rest of the world beat there too.[/quote]

If we're the most religious nation in the world, then yikes! The world must be a pretty bleak and evil place if you think that America looks like a moral pillar in comparison.

Most television programs are garbage, and sadly, the garbage that's produced continues to air because people watch it. One in four teenage girls has had an STD, and we've got a terribly high abortion rate. While I'd agree that our culture is at least nominally religious, I don't think the state of things is anywhere near satisfactory. Again, I don't think American culture is anything to be proud of.

[quote]Oh how nice, we are all equal no country is superior to any other country in any way.[/quote]

No, I did say that we're wealthier, more powerful, and more technologically advanced than many other countries. Still, I also said that that doesn't account for much. There are more important things.

[quote]you know we are all citizens of the world(sarcasm).[/quote]

Actually, yes, we are. In my opinion, blatant and/or militant nationalism has caused more harm than good throughout history. I dunno, but it tends to be rather divisive. If you were to go to, say, England and shout your beliefs of American superiority from the rooftops, I highly doubt it'd go over well. And I highly doubt they'd agree! The funny thing is, many Europeans would be astounded by your views simply because they seem to be what many Europeans view as stereotypical (and unattractive) American cockiness. Not very good for international relations indeed.

[quote]We are better than other countries and you can just look around and see that.[/quote]

"Better" is relative.

[quote]I was talking to a russian once who laughed when someone suggested that there is actually poverty in America he rightly noted that "poverty in America is a car, 2 T.V's and a playstation 2"(you can check the last census if you want).[/quote]

We certainly have it better than developing countries, that's for sure. Still, that doesn't change the fact that poverty is a very real, very serious problem here in America (as you know). Some people live on the streets; some people don't know where their next meals will come from.

Edited April 10, 2008 by BeenaBobba

[dairygirl4u2c]

my understanding of abortion feelings are that the nation is split about abortion early on, and most are against it late term, and a very large number are against partial birth.

here's some decent stats on the issue that seem to back it up.
[url="http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm"]http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm[/url]

if the pregnancy is merely unwanted, a plurality say it should be illegal.
surprisingly, they would allow it for mental health problems, but i doubt most know what htat means, that that's reflect by so large a number being "not sure" on that issue.

to add another tidbit, i've heard that the crime rate etc is the same for proclaiming christians as it is for nonchristians in the US. so at least our religoius claims aren't as great as they might seem at first.but on the other hand, religous freedom is a think a very big moral victory for teh US, and even the CC teaches that it's a good thing.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i'd tend to look poorly on the US, but then if i think about who might have a better country... i'm hard pressed to think of one.

i guess if you're big on catholicism then italy and a few catholic countries might be optimal. but, i wonder how much those are nominal beliefs in those countries.

so, to really get a low down on it, more research needs done.

my bias is that even though it's not perfect, the US is probably the best country in the world.

i do know the abortion rate of nonUS countries rivals that of the US if not worse for many. there's two abortions per minute in the US, outrageous. think about what it'd be in the world.
abortion is such a tragedy, that if you just looked at who had the lowest per capita, that might actually be the best country in the world.

Edited April 10, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]I've examined abortion rates world wide. It appears that the nation with the lowest abortion rate is Belgium (8 per 1000 pregancies). A nation with one of the highest abortion rates is Chile (roughly 99 per 1000 pregancies). What interested me here is that Belgium is a liberalized Pro-Choice country and Chile, which has had strong regulations against abortion, is considered Pro-Life.

After examining the issue I've been thinking that abortion's legality doesn't always have anything to do with the abortion rate itself. For example here are some CDC statistics from the US:

[url="http://www.newsbatch.com/abor-usabort.gif"]http://www.newsbatch.com/abor-usabort.gif[/url]

One easily notices that the abortion rate fell to a virtual 30 year all time low in the late 90's. Many researchers point out that the abortion rate has been lower in many states than when abortion was illegal or regulated.

There is also evidence that the abortion rate spikes a bit in times of economic trouble. When jobs are liquidated, fewer women have health insurance (a $200 abortion is often far cheaper than the outstanding medical bills an uninsured woman faces when pregnant). Also nearly 2 out of every 3 women who procure abortion live below the poverty level. A disproportionate number of them are minorities. They are also unmarried thus adding to the economic hardship.

Abortion rates from Belgium, Chile, and the US illustrates that legality of abortion may not effect abortion rate. Economics may be a greater factor. Compare abortion world abortion rates with world abortion legality and one will quickly see that abortion's legality doesn't necessarily mean that abortion will be rare or prevented:

[url="http://www.newsbatch.com/abor-worldlaws.html"]http://www.newsbatch.com/abor-worldlaws.html[/url]

[url="http://www.newsbatch.com/abor-worldrates.html"]http://www.newsbatch.com/abor-worldrates.html[/url]

While ministering to women who have procured abortions I've realized that no woman ever says, "Mommy, I want to have an abortion when I grow up." Most women who procure abortion do so out of a deep sense of desperation. I fear that merely banning abortion is a cosmetic solution. It may not address the issues women face that cause them to feel they need an abortion. If these issues are not addressed the abortion rate may not be effected at all by banning abortion. In actuality, as seen in Peru, Chile, and Brazil the abortion rate may rise.

What has Belgium done to become the nation with the lowest abortion rate?
Could we look at their system to find what is needed to address the issues women face?

I ask these questions because while I want to see abortion banned...I also want to see the abortion rate reduced.[/quote]

by the abortion line of reasoning it looks like belgium might be best. it's kind of a run down country a lot, but.
i kind of wondered if one of those hippie countires in norhtern europe might be the best, turns out it might be.

[dairygirl4u2c]

it's interesting to see that europe has lower abortion rates. i wonder if it's cause it's traditionall where christianity really sprang up in the Western world. or, if it's cause there's some socialist tendencies there. and same for canada.

i do know, as much as republicans like to push gun rights, the US is one of the most violent countries in the world. canada has a lot of guns too, so i might wonder if it's because of the rich poor divide that the US and capitalism brings. i remember seeing sentiment to that regard in bowling for columbine. (he also alluded to it might be that we have so many guns that it's worse here... but if canada has a lot of guns, either we have many many more, or else it's not bc of the presence of guns) (canada also watches vilent movies so that's not the reason)

so, i'm leaning with belgium, or, comedically to me, canada.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[url="http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/25s3099.html"]http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/25s3099.html[/url]

[CatherineM]

I think the US could be. There was probably a time when it was. It certainly could be again, but it would take some real vision, some belt tightening, and some fundamental change in how we view ourselves and the rest of the world.

[Deb]

Only in our own minds.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Deb' post='1496738' date='Apr 10 2008, 08:31 PM']Only in our own minds.[/quote]

sure, but what would patriotism be without it . I have a lot of problems with the way our country is ran and on some of the principles it was founded on. That said, I can't think of any other nation currently that is any better off.

[Mercy me]

Yes, I love this country and there are is none better. If I fail or if I succeed I have only myself to blame. Dreams are a attainable here if you work hard enough. The same can't be said about the rest of the world.

[goldenchild17]

werd

[CatholicMax]

[quote name='BeenaBobba' post='1496613' date='Apr 10 2008, 04:52 PM']CatholicMax brought this up on the racism thread, and since it was OT, I decided to make another thread for it with my reponse to his comment.
Do you have any statistics to back that up?[/quote]
When states try to pass abortion laws the people vote them down look it up.

[quote]I couldn't find any, but I remember reading that the two groups were (unfortunately) pretty close, statistically speaking. Either way, that doesn't change the fact that millions of babies die each year from abortion here in the United States. That's nothing to be proud of. I'm sure you'd agree with that.[/quote]
I told you where to find the information too be honest i read way to much (especially being in school) to remember exactly where i find every stat or ref. but i can point you in the right direction which i did above. ballots turn out different than gallop polls because the questions for polls can be phrased to get certain results. the Fact that most Americans are against abortion and the fact that millions of babies are aborted every year does not make me proud either.


[quote]Dude, that's a whole other topic in and of itself, but suffice it to say that I vehemently disagree with you on that. I'll try to respond to this paragraph later on the torture thread if I have time.[/quote] will do. I do however ask one thing here for brevity sake define torture in 20 words or less.

[quote]Well, honestly, I don't think definitions like that can be described as objective, per se. All the same, assuming that your definition is correct, then yes, I'd agree that America is a civilized country. But if one defines civilized as the opposite of barbarism, with enlightenment being implied, then I'd disagree that America is civilized.[/quote]
Define terms. what is a Barbarian. and what do you mean Enlightenment? i don't know what these things are you need to define them for me.

[quote]If we're the most religious nation in the world, then yikes! The world must be a pretty bleak and evil place if you think that America looks like a moral pillar in comparison. [/quote] if you look at the polls as well as the stats internationally more Americans believe in God and more Americans go to Church than the rest of the world. is the world a bleak place? Europe is over run with muslims i would say that is pretty bleak.


[quote]Most television programs are garbage, and sadly, the garbage that's produced continues to air because people watch it. One in four teenage girls has had an STD, and we've got a terribly high abortion rate. While I'd agree that our culture is at least nominally religious, I don't think the state of things is anywhere near satisfactory. Again, I don't think American culture is anything to be proud of.[/quote]
I am very proud of American Culture I however am not proud of what the socialists in America are doing to MY country.

[quote]No, I did say that we're wealthier, more powerful, and more technologically advanced than many other countries. Still, I also said that that doesn't account for much. There are more important things.[/quote]
Yes there are and as i pointed out we are the most religious country in the world. you do have a really bleak view of the world i noticed.

[quote]Actually, yes, we are. In my opinion, blatant and/or militant nationalism has caused more harm than good throughout history.[/quote] are you serious? This shows how little history you have studied and of what you have how much of it is leftist written. A nation by its definition is a group of individuals who live in a certain territory and agree to live by a certain law and structure. I do agree that militant versions of nationalism like NAZISM is the cause of much harm but nation states are very good things. and Military states are good things as well(note that this is the first time in history a military state has not existed.)
[quote]I dunno, but it tends to be rather divisive. If you were to go to, say, England and shout your beliefs of American superiority from the rooftops, I highly doubt it'd go over well. And I highly doubt they'd agree! The funny thing is, many Europeans would be astounded by your views simply because they seem to be what many Europeans view as stereotypical (and unattractive) American cockiness. Not very good for international relations indeed.[/quote]
First i dont care about International relations call me what you will they are a sick sick joke especially in todays world. And of course European relativists would very much disagree after all we are all equal and the muslims are not a barbarian horde trying to conquer Europe. I study with some Europeans and the Europeans I study with tend to agree that on the whole America is a conservative country and it tends to be superior in every way. I never claimed we were a perfect nation and neither do they. Why do i care what a bunch of PC donkey's who are letting their culture die and be whipped out say?
[quote]

[CatholicMax]

"Better" is relative. [/quote] maybe your definition is but not mine. definition, Better: improved, more attractive, favorable, or commendable, more advantageous or effective, improved in performance.

American is better.


[quote]We certainly have it better than developing countries, that's for sure. Still, that doesn't change the fact that poverty is a very real, very serious problem here in America (as you know). Some people live on the streets; some people don't know where their next meals will come from.[/quote]True there is real abject poverty here in America but it is not a "serious problem" (serious implying that it is wide spread). but even the people that live on the streets get three square meals a day, soup kitchens are open. I went literally from living on the street at 14 with nothing (literally) but the shirt on my back the pants on my waist and the shoes on my feet, to renting a 5 bedroom house at age 15. I was motivated I knew i needed a place to stay found some people my own age in a similar situation found someone who was 18, worked under the table, did side jobs. and went to school. I was able to bring home $2,000 a month from hard work and various jobs. the majority of people in America who are poor are poor because they choose to be, they are either 1, lazy, or 2. think its more important to buy video games and Nikes than to save that $60 or $150. so don't tell me poverty is a real problem in America because that is a line of croutons.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Mercy me' post='1496893' date='Apr 11 2008, 12:23 AM']Yes, I love this country and there are is none better. If I fail or if I succeed I have only myself to blame. Dreams are a attainable here if you work hard enough. The same can't be said about the rest of the world.[/quote]

Are dreams not attainable elsewhere in the world? It's interesting that the world's richest man, Carlos Slim, is a Lebanese immigrant to Mexico. He's just one example, but suffice it to say, nearly every country has its share of entrepreneurs and most live under democractic governments that at least offer some freedoms and rights.

I'm proud that the United States is the model of democracy for the world, that we have the Bill of Rights, and the freedoms it provides. Still, part of our role as a leader is to recognize the good offered by other countries that come from different cultures and developed outside of Western history. Unfortunately, American public schools don't teach much about the history of non-Western civilizations, so few of us have any clue where non-white people are coming from (or even whites in the East, like Constantinople).

[jeffpugh]

I will waterboard the people who make this yet another torture thread.