Is It My Business?

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='apparent' post='1497614' date='Apr 11 2008, 09:34 PM']All I can say is that my daughter was raised in catholic home in an honorably way. Her brothers are both well adjusted young men. We all lived clean wholesome lives, attended mass weekly and participated often in catholic community activities.
Letting go is not really the issue here. My immediate and extended family members have not conspired against this daughter who wants no part of her family. All are good people, all are my friends, and all pretend that nothing is amiss and avoid the subject of my child.
I can not pretend that she, my only daughter doesn't matter! I have to go with my gut. Lord god forgive me if I'm wrong.
Do parental rights end at 21?
Does the forth commandment say; Honor your father and your mother, until the age of 21[/quote]

Honoring your father and mother does NOT mean always obeying them. Once she is out of the house she doesn't have to anymore...

CCC 2217
As long as a child lives at home with his parents, the child should obey his parents in all that they ask of him when it is for his good or that of the family. "Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord...

As they grow up, children should continue to respect their parents. They should anticipate their wishes, willingly seek their advice, and accept their just admonitions. Obedience toward parents ceases with the emancipation of the children; not so respect, which is always owed to them.

So I guess the question is whether you are honestly allowing her the indepenence which she should have. She is 21; that seems plenty old enough to be supporting herself. If you are paying tuition that does change things a little, but not to the point that she is being treated as a child. She can and should live her own life at this point.

However, if she is just being hostile and standoffish that is different. She should then reflect on all that you have done for her. You can't control that part, though. If she is being like that, just give her space.

I think that either way, the only solution is for you to give her space.

[rachael]

Giving her space really does seem like the best solution. I went through basically the same thing my freshman year of college. My mother wanted to know everything and I, on the other hand, refused to tell or do what she wanted me to. She ended up giving me a lot space and our relationship has really grown.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1497635' date='Apr 11 2008, 08:32 PM']While I'm not a family counselor, and I don't know the whole story, from what you say it sounds like your daughter is being a disgusting, disrespectful little brat.

There is such a thing as being over-nosey and over-involved, but there's nothing wrong with keeping in touch with your daughter to a certain degree. And her blatant disrespect is a direct contradiction to the Fourth Commandment.

Are you paying for your daughters college tuition, room and board, etc.? If so, you can tell her that if she's such a grown-up independent woman, she can pay her own way without your help, and refuse to continue paying for her education until she shows some basic respect. I know that may sound harsh, but I think it's a needed lesson. It is wrong that she should depend on her parents for support, yet treat them with total disrespect.
It is disgusting how many kids now think they're entitled to everything, yet owe nothing in return.[/quote]
Lol, there's love for you. If you don't like how they act, ruin their life by ending their education. Good plan, slick. The fact is, she is an independent adult. Whether her parents like it or not, she has a reasonable right to privacy if she so desires. If your solution is to stop her college education simply because nosey parents are being told to back off, I'm glad you're not in control of my education.

[rachael]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1498662' date='Apr 13 2008, 05:56 PM']Lol, there's love for you. If you don't like how they act, ruin their life by ending their education. Good plan, slick. The fact is, she is an independent adult. Whether her parents like it or not, she has a reasonable right to privacy if she so desires. If your solution is to stop her college education simply because nosey parents are being told to back off, I'm glad you're not in control of my education.[/quote]
I don't know why, but you made me laugh.

[Socrates]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1498662' date='Apr 13 2008, 04:56 PM']Lol, there's love for you. If you don't like how they act, ruin their life by ending their education. Good plan, slick. The fact is, she is an independent adult. Whether her parents like it or not, she has a reasonable right to privacy if she so desires. If your solution is to stop her college education simply because nosey parents are being told to back off, I'm glad you're not in control of my education.[/quote]
A college education is a privilege, not an entitlement. If she's an independent adult, then she need not depend on her parents to pay her way through life.
If someone is spending a huge amount of money to support you and your endeavors, you [i]owe[/i] them some basic respect.
If she wants her parents totally out of her life, then they can withdraw their money from her life too.
Living off the support of others while treating them life dirt is the height of disrespect and ingratitude.

Edited April 13, 2008 by Socrates

[SeekingHisPlan]

[quote name='apparent' post='1496055' date='Apr 10 2008, 12:01 AM']It none of your business

My 21 year old is teed off at me because I what to know what she is doing, what are her (away at college) grades, do you need money and that kind of small talk in general, etc.

She said I'm 21, you can't boss me around, and I have free will! She even returned the cell phone I got for her and told me to stick it, implying I did it only to control her. ??????

The more I reach out, the worse our relationship (if you could call it that) becomes. We haven't spoken in a long time. She has asked me (by mail) to leave her alone, but I can not stop trying to talk and reason with her. My wife, her mother is on devastated by this, and has difficulty sleeping at night.

Is it my business?
I'm I wrong to defy her wishes and continue to send messages?[/quote]


I say this as a nearly-25 year old who has a fairly good relationship with my parents (although it was not always so.) I am a fiercely independent person who relied on scholarships, student loans and part-time work to scrape through school and I am now paying off the debt by myself.

Her grades: are not your business at all unless you are paying her tuition. If you are, I would say yes, your business to an extent, but at the end of the day, she's 21 and she's going to make her own decisions about her academic life. If you don't like those decisions, tell her she has a choice: straighten up or pay her own tuition. If she chooses the latter, her grades are no longer your business.

What she does, where she goes, who she sees: Not your business if she is not in your house. That is not to say you have no right to care and be concerned about what she is doing, but again, at her age, how much she tells you about that part of her life is up to her. I always felt less willing to share things wtih my parents if I thought they were going to give me a rough time about my decisions or ask a million questions about "Why did you do that," Same went if I felt they were trying to pry info out of me that I didn't feel like giving. I'd clam up more. Just give her the space and allow her to speak into it when/if she wants. It sounds to me like she is feeling overly smothered and monitored right now, which I'm sure was not your intent, but give her some space. She may come around.

Does she need money?: Apparently not if she's acting bratty about it. If she wants you to leave her alone that's fine but she doesn't get your money. Not a cent.

I am sorry this is such a rough time for your family. I pray that once she has some breathing space, she will be a little more receptive and all of you can hammer out something that works for your family.

[apparent]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1498618' date='Apr 13 2008, 05:58 PM']Sorry - I should have said specifically her behavior in regard to her parents is disgusting and disrespectful, at least as you have reported it here.


You are perfectly within your rights to discontinue paying for her college education.
It is wrong that she should be living off your resources while at the same time refusing to have anything to do with you. Perhaps some time spent on her own in the "real world" without daddy's money to bail her out will teach her some lessons.
I am disgusted by the "entitlement" mentality by which people think they are entitled to support from others without giving anything, not even basic respect, in return. Maybe it's time she learn the real meaning of total independence.[/quote]

It's not about money. After her first year at college I haven't been asked for money or anything. All I've ever wanted was to converse and be acknowledged. Her Birthday's, Christmases' have come and gone, without a word or reply.

If it was only me being ignored, I could live with it (not like it), but it's not.

I feel like the father in the "Prodigal son" parable without the happy ending.

[IcePrincessKRS]

I might have missed it, but I don't get the impression that the parents here are paying for the daughter's education. He specifically said she was "totally on her own, by her own choosing." Seems to indicate to me that she's providing for herself completely--which again, makes it only her business what her grades are and how she's paying her bills. (Edited to add--seems I was correct, apparent posted while I was composing my post.)

I have friends who left home as soon as they were legally able to avoid a bad home situation. Their parents weren't abusive, but they were inordinately controlling (I won't go into details here because I will not betray their trust, but the whole situation was very bizarre). The parents were shocked and didn't know what they could have done to drive their children away--from the outside they appeared to be a very happy loving Catholic family. Its taken years for my friends to even begin laying the foundation of a shaky relationship with their parents, but they are trying. (I am citing this as an example that things are not always what they appear to be, folks.)

I really think we need to lay off the accusations and calling this girl names. Though dad here seems very kind and concerned we don't have her side of the story so all assumptions of how terrible she must be are really quite unfair. Parents deserve respect, but even we do things which diminishes our children's respect for us. Then we have to earn it back just like everybody else. (Please note here that I am not saying anything bad about Apparent, I only know what he has posted in this thread and frankly that bit isn't all that much to be basing opinions of right and wrong on. I am trying to be fair to all parties involved, even those not here to defend themselves.)

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='apparent' post='1498433' date='Apr 13 2008, 06:53 AM']This is no game. I've tried your approach to no avail.[/quote]

Well in the since that you will win or lose your daughter it is a very serious "game" or time in the life of your family. How long did you try that approach? It took a friend of mine [u]years[/u] to bring her daughter back. All she basically did was say "I love you and pray for you." for all those years until finally it paid off. I pray you have or will humble yourself, and have or learn to be very patient. Look to the trials and years St. Monica went through to convert her son St. Augustine.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' post='1498841' date='Apr 13 2008, 07:24 PM']I might have missed it, but I don't get the impression that the parents here are paying for the daughter's education. He specifically said she was "totally on her own, by her own choosing." Seems to indicate to me that she's providing for herself completely--which again, makes it only her business what her grades are and how she's paying her bills. (Edited to add--seems I was correct, apparent posted while I was composing my post.)

I have friends who left home as soon as they were legally able to avoid a bad home situation. Their parents weren't abusive, but they were inordinately controlling (I won't go into details here because I will not betray their trust, but the whole situation was very bizarre). The parents were shocked and didn't know what they could have done to drive their children away--from the outside they appeared to be a very happy loving Catholic family. Its taken years for my friends to even begin laying the foundation of a shaky relationship with their parents, but they are trying. (I am citing this as an example that things are not always what they appear to be, folks.)

[b]I really think we need to lay off the accusations and calling this girl names. Though dad here seems very kind and concerned we don't have her side of the story so all assumptions of how terrible she must be are really quite unfair. Parents deserve respect, but even we do things which diminishes our children's respect for us. Then we have to earn it back just like everybody else. [/b](Please note here that I am not saying anything bad about Apparent, I only know what he has posted in this thread and frankly that bit isn't all that much to be basing opinions of right and wrong on. I am trying to be fair to all parties involved, even those not here to defend themselves.)[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
thanks, Ice, for saying exactly what i was going to say!

[apparent]

I may not be paying for the daughter's education now, but we (my wife and I) have invested our souls in her being. Raising our children from birth to adulthood was a joy, even with all the struggles of day to day living and I thank God for my blessings.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not asking for payback, but a little gratitude would be nice.

[Archaeology cat]

Give her some time (easier said than done, I'm sure). Sometimes, it takes being out on your own to truly appreciate all your parents have done for you, how much they love you.

[cmotherofpirl]

Expecting gratitude for raising one's children is a bad idea. They don't owe us gratitude for doing our jobs as parents. I hope for respect from my children when they are adults, but that is earned by me, not my due. If we have done a good job as parents we expect them to spread their wings, fly away and start their own families, as we get on with our own lives. When they become adults, we are not bound by their successes or failures any more than they are bound by ours. When they have children it is possible they will appreciate us more, because then they will have had more experience of life, and maybe are facing some of the stuggles we faced in raising them. Are some kids grateful as little kids, teenagers etc? Sure. But gratitude is a possible reward, but never a right of parenting, and not something we should ever demand.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='apparent' post='1498987' date='Apr 14 2008, 04:58 AM']Don't get me wrong, I'm not asking for payback, but a little gratitude would be nice.[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
and with an attitude like that, i can see how someone would be pushed away. it sounds like "i raised you all these years, investing myself in you, and you beaver dam well better show me some gratitude for all i've sacrificed." when i was 21, i didn't realize all that my parents had sacrificed for me, but they didn't shove it down my throat or hold it over my head. after i got married, and then after i had my child did i start to realize all they had given me.

if you don't want our advice, so be it. (many people here have said to let your daughter have her space and let her come to you.) maybe we're not telling you what you want to hear. namely, that your daughter is wrong, you are right, and you and your wife are wonderful parents. sorry, but that's just one half of the story, and forgive me if i'm a little suspicious of people who paint too rosy of a picture.

[prose]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1499088' date='Apr 14 2008, 10:28 AM']Expecting gratitude for raising one's children is a bad idea. They don't owe us gratitude for doing our jobs as parents. I hope for respect from my children when they are adults, but that is earned by me, not my due. If we have done a good job as parents we expect them to spread their wings, fly away and start their own families, as we get on with our own lives. When they become adults, we are not bound by their successes or failures any more than they are bound by ours. When they have children it is possible they will appreciate us more, because then they will have had more experience of life, and maybe are facing some of the stuggles we faced in raising them. Are some kids grateful as little kids, teenagers etc? Sure. But gratitude is a possible reward, but never a right of parenting, and not something we should ever demand.[/quote]

This is exactly how I feel.

I am sorry that you feel such a sense of loss, but you have done what you deem is everything in your power to fix it. Now it is time to maybe get your own counselor and help yourself apart from your daughter. Perhaps through this self evaluation and honesty, you will find a way to reconcile.

Your daughter does not sound selfish to me. She sounds hurt and is reacting in a way that she feels is appropriate for her. If this pain she is feeling (as I am assuming no child would separate from their parents without some level of pain), is stopping [b]you[/b] from living your life as a loving adult, then you need to learn to do such a thing apart from this broken relationship. You need personal help, as does your wife. It is possible to heal yourself without having to force a relationship. Maybe then you will be in a place that you do not feel so desperate for reconciliation, and it may actually happen.