Circumcision Immoral

[CatholicMax]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1496496' date='Apr 10 2008, 02:12 PM']No. I was pointing out that in countries where HIV is rife and the life expectancy stands at 35, it is necessary to do all in your power to prevent the spread of HIV - and circumcising a baby boy might reduce his risk of contracting the disease in his later life. The reduction would only be slight, but in the countries that I'm talking about your chance of surviving into adulthood are slight.

I used the example of rape to show that HIV is not spread solely through extramarital sex. Two different issues. Don't conflate them.

And I agree with what Deb said. You seem extremely preoccupied by circumcision, given the enormity of other issues facing the Catholic community.[/quote]
your logic is still very flawed. you cannot act preemptively. it is falsely (there is no conclusive evidence[no study done has ever been able to be reproduced]) that circumcision reduces HIV. the accusation however is that circumcision reduces Sexually transmitted HIV and if people follow the Churches teaching then that really doesn't matter. there is no claim having a foreskin will not reduce or increase your risk of secondary contraction of HIV(non-sexual) so your argument falls very short.

And what is interesting is a post that should have been something as simple as "This is what the Church says" and people assent has turned into people rebelling against the fact. (hits the imposed preoccupation). just like before with being accused of being angry, by not letting you persist in error(refuting your false statements) I am "preoccupied". that is a false way to win a debate. changing debs accusation of anger to preoccupation because i refuted her properly on that will not work. in fact it is a distraction from the real topic

but let me make one point your argument only applies to third world countries so are you saying that because we dont have the same problem her in America that it would be different and immoral?

Edited April 10, 2008 by CatholicMax

[prose]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1496496' date='Apr 10 2008, 02:12 PM']You seem extremely preoccupied by circumcision, given the enormity of other issues facing the Catholic community.[/quote]

There are plenty of issues that are not enormous, but still should be discussed. I think this issue (and this thread) is highly informative. I am learning a lot about various things.

[CatholicMax]

[quote name='prose' post='1496534' date='Apr 10 2008, 02:54 PM']There are plenty of issues that are not enormous, but still should be discussed. I think this issue (and this thread) is highly informative. I am learning a lot about various things.[/quote]
Thank you very much prose.
as well it should be noted that dealing with the big things never really solved anything. if you want to change the big things you need to start with the little thing. If you have a problem with impurity then you dont focus on that problem(yes you deal with it as it comes but dont focus) instead you stop using pepper and salt in your diet. You do little mortifications and then one day you wake up and realize that it just isnt a problem anymore you just someone completely forgot about it. its a domino effect.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='CatholicMax' post='1496398' date='Apr 10 2008, 01:25 PM']Actually that argument doesnt work because the American medical association says there is no valid reason to circumcise baby boys. Which again means your doing it for your own reasons. Its simple enough to say what i did was wrong but i didnt know. but to persist in error is not wise.[/quote]
So, you say that the studies for circumcision are flawed and that because the AMA says something it is so? I'm sorry if I've been taught to be skeptical of things, just because an organization with a nice name happens to say it's so.

[quote name='CatholicMax' post='1496527' date='Apr 10 2008, 03:46 PM']your logic is still very flawed. you cannot act preemptively. it is falsely (there is no conclusive evidence[no study done has ever been able to be reproduced]) that circumcision reduces HIV. the accusation however is that circumcision reduces Sexually transmitted HIV and if people follow the Churches teaching then that really doesn't matter. there is no claim having a foreskin will not reduce or increase your risk of secondary contraction of HIV(non-sexual) so your argument falls very short.

And what is interesting is a post that should have been something as simple as "This is what the Church says" and people assent has turned into people rebelling against the fact. (hits the imposed preoccupation). just like before with being accused of being angry, by not letting you persist in error(refuting your false statements) I am "preoccupied". that is a false way to win a debate. changing debs accusation of anger to preoccupation because i refuted her properly on that will not work. in fact it is a distraction from the real topic

but let me make one point your argument only applies to third world countries so are you saying that because we dont have the same problem her in America that it would be different and immoral?[/quote]
I think the main problem is that some of your posts are coming off as very judgemental, which is not going to help people see what you're saying, but rather upset them so they don't care to listen anymore. I'm not saying be wishy-washy, but it is not bad to be gentle.

[CatholicMax]

[quote name='MissScripture' post='1496549' date='Apr 10 2008, 03:23 PM']So, you say that the studies for circumcision are flawed and that because the AMA says something it is so? I'm sorry if I've been taught to be skeptical of things, just because an organization with a nice name happens to say it's so.[/quote]
Its not just the AMA in fact there are studies on both sides which is why i am saying the studies are in no way conclusive. the problem is that people are reading the summaries of the studies not the studies themselves, its not so much that the studies are flawed but that they are shaped to come up with a certain answer. If i were to ask you a series of questions i could make you answer me whatever way you wanted depending on how i shaped the questions. lawyers do it all the time. and here is my question if your not going to trust things like the AMA and the BMA and the APA who are you going to trust. that is only a worse reason to circumcise because your saying you dont trust the experts. Its like saying "i am going to take my truck to the gardener"


[quote]I think the main problem is that some of your posts are coming off as very judgemental, which is not going to help people see what you're saying, but rather upset them so they don't care to listen anymore. I'm not saying be wishy-washy, but it is not bad to be gentle.[/quote]
I will certainly admit i have been forceful in some of my arguments but you must also admit you have pretty much blown me off. you dont care what i say or what the evidence is. you know what you want the answer to be and so no matter what that is going to be the answer. and your not the only one some people have all but outright said so. what upsets them is that they want X to be true and its not and rather than us good arguments which get shot down they make a move to try and make me appear irrational ignoring any facts which are presented.

now i would like to ask you a question. if i can produce evidence that is not conclusive about how removing the clitoralhood of a baby girl might, [b]might[/b] reduce the risk of this or that most which can be prevented by good hygiene and abstinence should we circumcise baby girls?

[CatholicMax]

How studies are manipulated from [url="http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/info/HIVStatement.html"]http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org...VS
atement.html[/url]
[quote]Randomized controlled trials. After the failure of observational studies to show a clear protective effect, circumcision advocates obtained funding from the United States National Institutes of Health to conduct randomized controlled trials (RCTs) in Africa. Three RCTs to study the value of male circumcision in reducing HIV infection have been conducted in Africa since the publication of the Cochrane Review. The studies were intended to find out if circumcision is an effective intervention to prevent female-to-male HIV infection. A RCT under the supervision of Bertran Auvert, French circumcision proponent, was carried out in Orange Farm, South Africa;11 a RCT was carried out in Kenya under the supervision of North American circumcision proponent Robert C. Bailey and Stephen Moses;12 and a RCT was carried out in Uganda under the supervision of North American circumcision proponent Ronald H. Gray.13 Dr. Auvert has been a circumcision proponent since at least 2003.14 Professor Moses has been an advocate of circumcision at least since 1994.9 Professor Bailey has been a circumcision advocate since at least 1998.15

All three studies found that non-circumcised males contract HIV infection more quickly than circumcised males.11-13 This may be because the circumcised males required a period of abstinence after their circumcision. All three studies were terminated early, before the incidence of infection in circumcised males caught up with the incidence of infection in the non-circumcised males. If the studies had continued for their scheduled time, it is probable that there would have been little difference between the circumcised group and the non-circumcised group. Mills & Siegfried point out that early termination of such studies cause the benefits to be exaggerated.16 Dowsett & Couch (2007), even after publication of the RCTs, found insufficient evidence exists to support a program of circumcision to prevent HIV infection.17[/quote]

[quote]Cultural bias. When studying circumcision, cultural bias must be considered:

Circumcision practices are largely culturally determined and as a result there are strong beliefs and opinions surrounding its practice. It is important to acknowledge that researchers' personal biases and the dominant circumcision practices of their respective countries may influence their interpretation of findings.10
More than 50 percent of infant boys in North America still are subjected to [b]non-therapeutic circumcision.[/b] There is a well known cultural bias in favor of circumcision in North America,18-21 which may influence doctors at the National Institutes of Health as well as those directing the studies. Doctors conducting these studies may not possess the necessary attributes of neutrality and objectivity. Ideally, researchers from circumcising cultures, circumcised themselves, would recuse themselves from considering the data.[/quote]

Non-theraputic means that it is forbidden and immoral.

and in response to the HIV

[quote]There are many methods of HIV transmission, including:

mother-to-child infection,
transfusion of tainted blood25
infection with non-sterile needles used in health care,25
infection by homosexual and heterosexual anal intercourse,26
infection by needle sharing to inject illegal drugs,
traditional African scarring practices,
tribal (ritual) circumcision,24
female circumcision,27
male-to-female heterosexual transmission, and
female-to-male heterosexual transmission.[/quote]

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='CatholicMax' post='1496398' date='Apr 10 2008, 02:25 PM']Actually that argument doesnt work because the American medical association says there is no valid reason to circumcise baby boys. Which again means your doing it for your own reasons. Its simple enough to say what i did was wrong but i didnt know. but to persist in error is not wise.[/quote]
Again, not wrong, not in error.

[Deb]

[quote name='CatholicMax' post='1496536' date='Apr 10 2008, 03:58 PM']Thank you very much prose.
as well it should be noted that dealing with the big things never really solved anything. if you want to change the big things you need to start with the little thing. If you have a problem with impurity then you dont focus on that problem(yes you deal with it as it comes but dont focus) instead you stop using pepper and salt in your diet. You do little mortifications and then one day you wake up and realize that it just isnt a problem anymore you just someone completely forgot about it. its a domino effect.[/quote]


You are absolutely right. I think we should solve this circumcision thing and then everything else in the world will fall into place. By the way, are you in on the masturbation debate?

[Deb]

[quote name='CatholicMax' post='1496482' date='Apr 10 2008, 02:55 PM']Abortion, Euthanasia, huger we agree, war? well i hope your not one of the lefty "Iraq us an unjust war" type. War is a big thing(i dont know if i would call it an issue) but it is necessary for security and stability of the world, bad people only understand one thing, force.

[b][i]Well, MR. let's follow the letter of the CCC and the Lord. I don't remember our Lord Jesus Christ uttering the phrase, "bad people only understand one thing, force." Seeing as I actually want to live the words my savior spoke, I guess Jesus was a lefty too. Hmm, he forgot to add that when they nailed him to a cross and cruxified him. He could have snapped their necks with a wink but he didn't, he died instead, humble and alone and I believe, circumsized. Don't lefty me sweet pea. [/i][/b]

as for such a big thing for such a little snip let me put it this way. why dont we remove your clitoralhood? that is one type of female circumcision, and hey why is it such a big deal for such a little snip. i mean its an even littler snip than male circumcision. Argument from size is not an argument.

[b][i]I never was going to bring up size because I really don't know how we would compare. Anyway, at this point, I probably wouldn't mind cuz it might get my mind off not having had sex since I got divorced. This celibate thing is tough ya know. Is clitoralhood even a word? Sounds like a hat for a...........[/i][/b]

why is it such a big deal


[b][i]I am sure it is a big deal. [/i][/b]




I can go on if you would like but i think you get my point. If your husband were to circumcise your daughter even by just removing the clitoralhood you would prob. freak. [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3e2eKFxxfxk"]there is no difference between male and female circumcision[/url]

[b][i]hmmm, did they start doing home circumcisons now? Yeah, I would probably freak if my husband did that to my daughter. First, cuz I don't have one so who is that girl? Although, he is an executive chef so he is quite good with a knife and he owns top of the line ones. Well, only if he replaced them. I took them in the divorce. Love those knives. [/i][/b]

I am not angry you are projecting anger onto me because angry people are irrational and you dont have to listen to them. so by making me "angry" everything i say is irrelevant, you do this because you don't care what anyone tells you, don't matter. you have put a big sign up that says "I reject reality in favor of my own".[/quote]

[b][i]Actually, I am one of the least angry people on earth and have really been laughing my way through this entire post. I was genuinely wondering why you are so freaked about this. Were you circumcized? Do you want your foreskin back? Are you the guy that filed the lawsuit? I don't think about circumcision. Maybe if I was a guy I would. As a woman, I am kind of in favor for it for reasons I won't discuss on a public forum but, hey, if it is against church doctrine and is a sin, then it should be stopped. Start a movement. You could call it SOT for Save Our Tips or WIMF for Where is my Foreskin?
[/i][/b]
[b][i]I will apologize in advance for this post but, I just can't seem to stop myself this time. I should be reciting some prayers or something because every time I let my old personality out, I regret it. Pray for me, please. Yes, I am a sarcastic, cynic who laughs at everything. [/i][/b]

Edited April 11, 2008 by Deb

[Deb]

But, I am rarely angry.

[Justin86]

[quote name='CatholicMax' post='1496361' date='Apr 11 2008, 02:49 AM']I agree with you boys should be taught to wash but again i point out that most men are uncircumcised and are perfectly healthy. If you look a little deeper into these studies that "Prove" the benefits of circumcision you can see how the data is manipulated.[/quote]
Well, not that I'm nessacrilly arguing for the operation but sometimes boys will shove it back so far it'll get stuck and they have to do emergency surgery to remove it anyway as an adult, and that can be very traumatic.


[quote]Researchers Demonstrate Traumatic Effects of Circumcision

A team of Canadian researchers produced new evidence that circumcision has long-lasting traumatic effects. An article published in the international medical journal The Lancet reported the effect of infant circumcision on pain response during subsequent routine vaccination. The researchers tested 87 infants at 4 months or 6 months of age. The boys who had been circumcised were more sensitive to pain than the uncircumcised boys. Differences between groups were significant regarding facial action, crying time, and assessments of pain.

The authors believe that "neonatal circumcision may induce long-lasting changes in infant pain behavior because of alterations in the infant’s central neural processing of painful stimuli." They also write that "the long-term consequences of surgery done without anaesthesia are likely to include post-traumatic stress as well as pain. It is therefore possible that the greater vaccination response in the infants circumcised without anaesthesia may represent an infant analogue of a [b]post-traumatic stress disorder[/b] triggered by a traumatic and painful event and re-experienced under similar circumstances of pain during vaccination."

Taddio, A. et al., "Effect of Neonatal Circumcision on Pain Response during Subsequent Routine Vaccination," The Lancet 349 (1997): 599–603.

there is also a book called: Circumcision the hidden trauma, that you should check out[/quote]
Oh brother, now this is just ridiculous. What kid goes around thinking all day about the circumcision he got before he had a memory? Look, I was circumcised as an infant I have no memory of the procedure. How can I get PTSD from something I don't even remember?

Get clue, dude. Stop believing every medical report you read.

[quote name='Deb' post='1496754' date='Apr 11 2008, 11:48 AM'][b][i]Actually, I am one of the least angry people on earth and have really been laughing my way through this entire post. I was genuinely wondering why you are so freaked about this. Were you circumcised? Do you want your foreskin back? Are you the guy that filed the lawsuit? I don't think about circumcision. Maybe if I was a guy I would. As a woman, I am kind of in favor for it for reasons I won't discuss on a public forum but, hey, if it is against church doctrine and is a sin, then it should be stopped. Start a movement. You could call it SOT for Save Our Tips or WIMF for Where is my Foreskin?
[/i][/b]
[b][i]I will apologize in advance for this post but, I just can't seem to stop myself this time. I should be reciting some prayers or something because every time I let my old personality out, I regret it. Pray for me, please. Yes, I am a sarcastic, cynic who laughs at everything. [/i][/b][/quote]
lol, this post was hilarious. You wouldn't really be thinking about circumcision anymore if you were a male Deb. I honestly can't understand people who do.

I'm personally undecided on the morality of the matter myself, but I am glad that my parents had it done to me, however. My penis is a snap to clean thanks to their descion. As I h-a-t-e cleaning to begin with, I like it the way the doc cut it.

If it is immoral it wouldn't be any more of a sin than getting a tattoo. Ironically, it seems some of the people who are advocates for the morality of tattoos on phatmass also seem to be convinced that circumcision is immoral. It's funny, since tattoos and circumcision are both body mutilations. The only difference is one is done for hygiene reasons, and the other for decoration. Gee, I wonder which one [i]really[/i] has the most chance of being in line with Church teaching here?

Edited April 11, 2008 by Justin86

[CatholicMax]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1496568' date='Apr 10 2008, 03:55 PM']Again, not wrong, not in error.[/quote]
If the church says you can only preform circumcision for therapeutic reasons and the doctors are saying that most circumcisions in the US are not therapeutic how is that nor in error?

[quote name='Deb' post='1496741' date='Apr 10 2008, 08:37 PM']You are absolutely right. I think we should solve this circumcision thing and then everything else in the world will fall into place. By the way, are you in on the masturbation debate?[/quote]
again lost on the point of trying to make me sound angry and irrational so now you try to make me sound silly. I did not say that it would solve all the worlds problems i was simply stating a fact. one would not see how eating or not eating certain things would help one with impure thoughts, or how fasting might do the same. or how learning to sow or having a garden might help one with impurity but the principle still applies. you fix alot of little things and eventually the big thing fixes itself. if you want to get rid of folky music in your parish you dont begin by firing the music minister you begin with the priest chanting the gospel. don't try and make a valid point look silly or absurd.

[quote name='Deb' post='1496754' date='Apr 10 2008, 08:48 PM'][b][i]Actually, I am one of the least angry people on earth and have really been laughing my way through this entire post. I was genuinely wondering why you are so freaked about this. Were you circumcized? Do you want your foreskin back? Are you the guy that filed the lawsuit? I don't think about circumcision. Maybe if I was a guy I would. As a woman, I am kind of in favor for it for reasons I won't discuss on a public forum but, hey, if it is against church doctrine and is a sin, then it should be stopped. Start a movement. You could call it SOT for Save Our Tips or WIMF for Where is my Foreskin?
[/i][/b]
[b][i]I will apologize in advance for this post but, I just can't seem to stop myself this time. I should be reciting some prayers or something because every time I let my old personality out, I regret it. Pray for me, please. Yes, I am a sarcastic, cynic who laughs at everything. [/i][/b][/quote]
If you must know. no i am not circumcised, I have my foreskin thank you. however my girlfriend in high school insisted on having it done to our son. who died. as you can imagine it is painful so i dont really bring it up, Am I angry? no, i was angry but i realized there is no point in being angry about it. education is the best cure for ignorance, i should have been wiser and done more research before agreeing and i made a mistake. no one has the right to risk a child's life on a procedure even if that risk is small its too much. that is not necessary however people should know the risks and they should also know the Church says no and for good reason too. and I pray deb I pray very hard that your sons are not one of the next to die because you elect to have an operation that violates morality and Church teaching.

[CatholicMax]

[quote name='Justin86' post='1496878' date='Apr 10 2008, 09:57 PM']Taddio, A. et al., "Effect of Neonatal Circumcision on Pain Response during Subsequent Routine Vaccination," The Lancet 349 (1997): 599–603.

there is also a book called: Circumcision the hidden trauma, that you should check out

Oh brother, now this is just ridiculous. What kid goes around thinking all day about the circumcision he got before he had a memory? Look, I was circumcised as an infant I have no memory of the procedure. How can I get PTSD from something I don't even remember?[/quote]
I would suggest that you talk to a psychologist it is actually very easy. if you were to read studies of children who are raped at young ages they suffer from PTSD and many of them never remember it happening. you are assuming that memory rely's on your ability to actually recall the event that happened. however you should note that one of the symptoms of PTSD is suppressed memory. Many soldiers who go to war and see their best friend die in front of them dont remember the event ever happening yet they will break down in tears if they see a pair of green shoes. I am not saying this happens to that extreme i am using this to illustrate a point it is proven though that circumcised men are more susceptible to pain, and that they are more fixated with certain types of sex.

[quote]Get clue, dude. Stop believing every medical report you read.
lol, this post was hilarious. You wouldn't really be thinking about circumcision anymore if you were a male Deb. I honestly can't understand people who do.

I'm personally undecided on the morality of the matter myself, but I am glad that my parents had it done to me, however. My penis is a snap to clean thanks to their descion. As I hate (don't hate, appreciate) (don't hate (don't hate, appreciate), appreciate) cleaning to begin with, I like it the way the doc cut it.

If it is immoral it wouldn't be any more of a sin than getting a tattoo. Ironically, it seems some of the people who are advocates of the morality of tattoos on phatmass seem to be convinced that circumcision is immoral. It's funny, since tattoos and circumcision are both body mutilations. The only difference is one is done for hygiene reasons, and the other for decoration. Gee, I wonder which one [i]really[/i] has the most chance of being in line Church teaching here? [/quote]
I do not believe every report i read however i do believe reports which prove themselves to be conclusive and reputable.

Tattoos and circumcision are not the same because yet again NO not one major medical association in the world supports circumcision. it is no more difficult to clean than a circumcised penis.

also the difference between Circumcision and tattoos is that you can actually die from one... well that and tattoos are not forced on babies without their consent.

and there is one other thing to consider. Tattoos unlike circumcision can be undone. so no they are not the same. however this does not mean i think tattoos are moral. i think that however is a completely different argument. i would be rather interested however if you could find a case where a tattoo killed someone?

[-I---Love]

Thanks for the good topic thread, I enjoy.

After reading the arguments I am pretty much decided on the side of no circumcision.

To sum up this is b/c:

Unnecessary complications in country like US w/ good hygiene
God's creation is good as is
Pain inflicted unnecessarily
Seems to be perpetuating an ignorant/tainted motive practice as common place

It's lame and rude to comment that ppl must have an infatuation w/ a subject b/c they bring it up.

It's annoying when ppl time and again say "Why are we talking about this little issue, when there are so many more important ones?" Seriously this line should be replaced with some silly spam fiddler phrase.

[Paladin D]

It's not that hard to clean under the foreskin...


Pull back, wash, done.

It takes 5 to 10 seconds tops.


... if the average guy can't do that, then what else can he do?