Circumcision Immoral

[Adrestia]

[quote name='CatholicMax' post='1496151' date='Apr 10 2008, 12:58 AM']I have an idea lets remove breasts in women as it will reduce the risk of breast cancer.[/quote]
Similac for all? Sorry - removing a small part of the penis is not comparable to removing the entire breast. The penis w/o its foreskin functions just fine.

I do agree with you, but not to the point of this ridiculous comparison.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='CatholicMax' post='1496051' date='Apr 10 2008, 04:56 AM']I think its funny how you guys ignore church teaching when it is inconvenient. *Pius XII in Discorsi e Messaggi Radiodiffusi wrote *"From a moral point of view, circumcision is permissible if, in accordance with therapeutic principles, it prevents a disease _that cannot be countered in any other way_.". this means that it has already happened.

To HIV. the churches teaching automatically discounts any possibility for circumcision for the reason of HIV as abstaining from sex will solve the Problem of HIV.[/quote]

1.) HIV is not spread only through promiscuity or premarital sex. That's a myth that is extremely damaging to those with HIV. In Latin America the main mode of transmission is from a mother to her unborn child. It is also possible to get it through mixing blood or other bodily fluids (which is easier than it sounds). More alarmingly, it is not always possible to know whether somebody is a carrier of the virus [i]- they may look healthy[/i] and not even be aware that they are a carrier themselves. For this reason I can see why male circumcision would be a useful thing in countries where HIV is rife and the life expectancy is 35. Anything to minimise the chances of contracting it would be good. Given that HIV is already rampant, it is naive to suppose that a widespread abstinence campaign alone would make the problem magically dissolve, which is why Catholic charities are currently working hard to provide a continuous supply of antiretroviral drugs, decent sanitation, and well-regulated hospitals where needles aren't reused [i]in addition[/i] to promoting sexual abstinence.

2.) Not everything a pope says is unequivocally accepted by all Catholics as part of the corpus of Church teaching. Popes can and do speak as private scholars, and while their advice should be considered carefully (out of respect for their office), this does not mean that we are bound to abide by everything that comes out of their mouths. I could list numerous papal pronouncements that have been made over the past two thousand years that I have a strong suspicion you won't be following.

[quote]I find it disgusting that people would ignore the churches teaching like that.[/quote]

I find it odd that you would come to a Catholic website and post about nothing but circumcision. Perhaps it is just that most people here don't see this as the crucial issue of moral theology that you make it out to be. Thoughts about circumcision certainly don't dominate my faith and practice.

[Deb]

Pope Pius XII was dead before HIV was ever heard of.

I think you should write Pope Benedict XVI and ask him his opinion. I am sure it is at the top of his list of things the world needs clarification on right now.

I am wondering if maybe you aren't the recipient of a botched circumcision and have a lot of anger regarding the procedure?

[Aloysius]

oh come on now, just because someone is against the operation because it is an unnecessary mutilation, you accuse them of having some personal motive? AD HOMINEM.

I agree with CatholicMax and think circumcision should be far less widely practiced. The allowance of circumcision must only be if the disease cannot be reasonably countered in any other way. Good hygiene counters the risk of all these things quite as nicely as circumcision would.

It is not just Pope Pius XII, there are ecumenical council quotes (quoted in the other threads which have been linked to here) which specifically state that things like circumcision practiced even without religious significance are sinful.

whilst the well-informed conscience may choose to circumcise their child because they feel that there is no other way to counter such diseases,

oh, and HIV and other STDs are absolutely not a good justification for circumcision. You do not treat a child as if he will definitely fail at chastity... a large problem in our society is that so many parents do this (ie they say "don't have sex before marriage, but if you do..."). No, the only way a Catholic parent can morally have their child circumcised is if they believe that it is the best and only way to prevent things like penile cancer. And I would disagree with their assessment there as I believe good hygiene can also effectively prevent such things (did God so poorly design our bodies that there is a health risk merely from staying in their original form? the removal of breasts to prevent breast cancer analogy was spot-on) sterilization would definitively remove their risk of sexual transmitted diseases; but we do not mutilate in order to prevent those who might fall into sin in the future to avoid the dangers associated with it. the only people HIV arguments should convince are parents who think extra-marital sex is ok.

In other threads it has been argued that if a father is circumcised it is good to do it for the child to avoid confusion if there ever arises a time when the child sees and is able to realize he is different. I absolutely disagree with this reason as well, as it does not even fit into what the Pope allowed when he said that there was a limited case when circumcision might be allowed.

I believe that in heaven the only glorified bodies that will retain the sign of circumcision are the ones who were part of the Old Covenant, and all our hygiene-based mutilations will be healed to their original natural state.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='CatholicMax' post='1496153' date='Apr 10 2008, 02:10 AM'][url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3e2eKFxxfxk"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3e2eKFxxfxk[/url]
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82ZnfQYGDOM"]Trauma[/url]
Doctor Kellogg who claimed that A remedy for masturbation which is almost always successful in small boys is circumcision. The operation should be performed by a surgeon [b]without administering an anesthetic,[/b] [u]as the brief pain attending the operation will have a salutary effect upon the mind, especially if it be connected with the idea of punishment.[/u]

Yes male circumcision has been used to that end.

[url="http://www.cirp.org/library/complications/kaplan/"]Complications [/url]
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wL1Zdq0mmY"]Babies dont feel pain[/url]

Deaths really do happen even here in the united states
[url="http://www.circumstitions.com/death.html"]http://www.circumstitions.com/death.html[/url]

anyone who ignores this follows their own will and not the will of God or the Church[/quote]
Yes, and because one Dr. mentioned it, of course none ever use anesthetic, and the only purpose that people are using it for is as a remedy to masturbation...

[CatholicMax]

[quote name='Deb' post='1496239' date='Apr 10 2008, 08:30 AM']Pope Pius XII was dead before HIV was ever heard of.

I think you should write Pope Benedict XVI and ask him his opinion. I am sure it is at the top of his list of things the world needs clarification on right now.

I am wondering if maybe you aren't the recipient of a botched circumcision and have a lot of anger regarding the procedure?[/quote]
HIV is irrelevant as i pointed out the churches moral teaching on sex is the cure. HIV can be avoided("that cannot be countered in any other way") by being monogamous. so if he heard of HIV does not matter.

The fact that I have produced a CCC statement that condemns amputating arbitrarily (and again the fact that no major medical association recommends it it is arbitrary) means that you are being rebellious against the Church and against God, in persisting in an error.

[CatholicMax]

[quote name='MissScripture' post='1496282' date='Apr 10 2008, 09:41 AM']Yes, and because one Dr. mentioned it, of course none ever use anesthetic, and the only purpose that people are using it for is as a remedy to masturbation... [/quote]
Actually in the United states that is why Circumcision became so wide spread, and that is why it did not become wide spread in other countries at the same time. and its not just one doctor if you were to do just a little research(which you wont do because you want to follow your own will) you would discover this is common to not use anestheics.
I dont think most people use it as a remedy today and i didnt claim they do i said that is what it started out as.

but what i find interesting is the fact that you are do not answer any of the other points but instead use an ad hominem.

[praying4carmel]

From Habit Wearing to Circumcision being necessary or not..

Phatmass has it all..

How about the plain hygiene issue of the fact that some uncircumcised men DON"T wash their winkies well and women should not be subjected to that!

[Aloysius]

so do you believe mutilation is an acceptable alternative to potential poor hygiene?

some people don't wear deodorant... perhaps we ought to remove their sweat glands.

there's a very simple solution: boys need to be taught good hygiene from an early age.

[praying4carmel]

I was being facetious. Sorry..that did not come across well.

I do agree with you that Boys as well as Girls need to be taught hygiene at an early age.

Having not ever been a mother, I really cannot relate to this issue, However, I will say that the rates of Cervical Cancer seem to be rising, and that there seems to be a relation to the issue however small.

I think that the bottom line is that for me, we seem in the US to be ashamed of our bodies and our genitals. If we had a healthy bodily culture, maybe we would not be afraid of touching ourselves for hygiene, and we could be taught better boundaries as children with relation to our bodies. But again, I am not a parent. I would want my child to have a healthy knowledge of his or her body.

Would I circumcise my son? I honestly would say that I would have to know more and would have to pray about it. You have given much food for thought.

[CatholicMax]

[quote name='praying4carmel' post='1496303' date='Apr 10 2008, 10:12 AM']From Habit Wearing to Circumcision being necessary or not..

Phatmass has it all..

How about the plain hygiene issue of the fact that some uncircumcised men DON"T wash their winkies well and women should not be subjected to that![/quote]
I agree with you boys should be taught to wash but again i point out that most men are uncircumcised and are perfectly healthy. If you look a little deeper into these studies that "Prove" the benefits of circumcision you can see how the data is manipulated.

Researchers Demonstrate Traumatic Effects of Circumcision

A team of Canadian researchers produced new evidence that circumcision has long-lasting traumatic effects. An article published in the international medical journal The Lancet reported the effect of infant circumcision on pain response during subsequent routine vaccination. The researchers tested 87 infants at 4 months or 6 months of age. The boys who had been circumcised were more sensitive to pain than the uncircumcised boys. Differences between groups were significant regarding facial action, crying time, and assessments of pain.

The authors believe that "neonatal circumcision may induce long-lasting changes in infant pain behavior because of alterations in the infant’s central neural processing of painful stimuli." They also write that "the long-term consequences of surgery done without anaesthesia are likely to include post-traumatic stress as well as pain. It is therefore possible that the greater vaccination response in the infants circumcised without anaesthesia may represent an infant analogue of a post-traumatic stress disorder triggered by a traumatic and painful event and re-experienced under similar circumstances of pain during vaccination."

Taddio, A. et al., "Effect of Neonatal Circumcision on Pain Response during Subsequent Routine Vaccination," The Lancet 349 (1997): 599–603.

there is also a book called: Circumcision the hidden trauma, that you should check out

[Paladin D]

I will not circumsize any of my boys, period. Unless, it was absolutely necessary.

Edited April 10, 2008 by Paladin D

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='CatholicMax' post='1496286' date='Apr 10 2008, 11:47 AM']HIV is irrelevant as i pointed out the churches moral teaching on sex is the cure. HIV can be avoided("that cannot be countered in any other way") by being monogamous. so if he heard of HIV does not matter.

The fact that I have produced a CCC statement that condemns amputating arbitrarily (and again the fact that no major medical association recommends it it is arbitrary) means that you are being rebellious against the Church and against God, in persisting in an error.[/quote]
The Church says circumcision is ok for medical reasons. Get over it.
Both my boys were snipped WITH anesthetic.
There are much more important issues in life.

[Deb]

You know, your premise is kind of based on false information. You took your CCC quote, not out of any part that dealt with circumcision but, on kidnapping and torture. Very out of context. So, here for all, is the complete CCC 2297/2298. The only time circumcision is brought up in the CCC is to mention Christ's circumcision and listing it as one of the liturgical signs of the Old Covenant.

[i]Kidnapping[/i] and [i]hostage taking[/i] bring on a reign of terror; by means of threats they subject their victims to intolerable pressures. They are morally wrong. [i]Terrorism[/i] threatens, wounds, and kills indiscriminately; it is gravely against justice and charity. [i]Torture[/i] which uses physical or moral violence to extract confessions, punish the guilty, frighten opponents, or satisfy hatred is contrary to respect for the person and for human dignity. Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reasons, directly intended [i]amputations[/i], [i]mutilations[/i], and [i]sterilizations[/i] performed on innocent persons are against the moral law.[sup][url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2art5.htm#91"]91[/url][/sup]

[size=2]In times past, cruel practices were commonly used by legitimate governments to maintain law and order, often without protest from the Pastors of the Church, who themselves adopted in their own tribunals the prescriptions of Roman law concerning torture. Regrettable as these facts are, the Church always taught the duty of clemency and mercy. She forbade clerics to shed blood. In recent times it has become evident that these cruel practices were neither necessary for public order, nor in conformity with the legitimate rights of the human person. On the contrary, these practices led to ones even more degrading. It is necessary to work for their abolition. We must pray for the victims and their tormentors.[/size]</FONT>

Edited April 10, 2008 by Deb

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='CatholicMax' post='1496286' date='Apr 10 2008, 04:47 PM']HIV is irrelevant as i pointed out the churches moral teaching on sex is the cure. HIV can be avoided("that cannot be countered in any other way") by being monogamous. so if he heard of HIV does not matter.[/quote]

And as I pointed out (and you ignored) HIV is not spread solely through sex. In some countries (i.e. the whole of Latin America) the main mode of transmission is from a mother to her unborn baby. People can get HIV through unsanitary conditions in hospitals (i.e. reused needles, which is a HUGE problem in poorer countries) or unhygienic sanitation (again, a very serious problem in the developing world). Furthermore, it is possible to carry HIV and not know that you have the virus, so stop making it sound as though its a disease that is spread through nothing but promiscuity and that abstinence will suddenly make it go away. Abstinence won't make extreme poverty go away and cause pristine hospitals to spring up overnight, complete with needles and other equipment all sterilised in beautiful clean boiling water (another thing that developing countries tend to lack). Abstinence won't make rapists go away. (HIV-infected men sometimes rape women as 'punishment' in certain areas where the infection is rife - I was watching a documentary on it quite recently.) Abstinence is not the answer to everything. Yes, it is important, but it is not the sole response to the problem. Again, as I have already pointed out, the Catholic Church's response to countries with a severe HIV/AIDS problem is not just to promote sexual abstinence but to address the numerous other factors that cause this horrific disease to be perpetuated.