Feminized Catholicism In Ireland

[PatrickRitaMichael]

I agree with what Ellenita said, too.

At my Church, we have thousands of parishoners and 5 masses and not enough boys to be alter servers so usually all the alter servers are girls and sometimes a boy or two. (If they didn't let girls do it at my Church, there wouldn't be enough alter boys to function normally). Maybe more men and boys should start stepping up so that women wouldn't have to fill in the gaps.

[Katt1227]

Yeah, where are all the ladies?

Well, after reading the first three posts, most of "the ladies" probably ran for cover. I know I almost did.

I'm in no means a feminist, but I do think that both Men and Women were created, equally, in God's Image and I see no problem with women serving in numerous roles in the church. Of course, I respect and agree with the church's teachings on women priests. But the fact is, women comprise about half of the congregation, so why wouldn't it be "normal" for them to comprise half of the servers. Obviously the example of the parish in Ireland was a way of calling to mind that women are capable of serving the church in many of the same ways that men are. We can read, sing, minister communion, and help out at the altar. Some church's don't have the luxury of having a lot of young boys and men that are able to be altar servers, so why limit girls from doing it? I think that we as a congregation, comprised of both males and females, are responsible to serve the church in whatever ways we can.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Well, after reading the first three posts, most of "the ladies" probably ran for cover.  I know I almost did. 

I'm in no means a feminist, but I do think that both Men and Women were created, equally, in God's Image and I see no problem with women serving in numerous roles in the church.  Of course, I respect and agree with the church's teachings on women priests.  But the fact is, women comprise about half of the congregation, so why wouldn't it be "normal" for them to comprise half of the servers.  Obviously the example of the parish in Ireland was a way of calling to mind that women are capable of serving the church in many of the same ways that men are.  We can read, sing, minister communion, and help out at the altar.  Some church's don't have the luxury of having a lot of young boys and men that are able to be altar servers, so why limit girls from doing it?  I think that we as a congregation, comprised of both males and females, are responsible to serve the church in whatever ways we can.

Based on my understanding of the legislation on this matter (which isn't exhaustive), it is ok for girls to be servers when there is a shortage of boys available. But it shouldn't be an agenda to make it 50/50 or all girls or something which happens in some parishes. It's not about feminism, neither is it about women being less competent at the ministries. Of course women are just as capable of doing these things. I don't know specifically what the rationale is, but I believe that the Church has wise reasons for legislating the way it has. I believe that many priestly vocations are inspired and nurtured by boys serving at the altar and that the women dominated liturgical ministries do deter this to some extent. If I was a boy and I had liturgical ministries associated with "girls" (this is how boy's naturally think) I would be much less likely to become a server (if I would consider it at all). I would think, "that's girl stuff, they even wear dresses."

This is a valid consideration for the Church since priestly vocations are needed very much and I don't think the connection between the traditional role of the altar boy and the cultivating of vocations can be denied. And the common perception of the role of the server (particularly from people who are uncomfortable with altar girls) is that this ministry is linked with the priesthood in a way (even if only in a symbolic way). The servers are like priest apprentices. They assist in the Liturgy, they handle the sacred vessels, they can incense, they are at the priest's side and act as an assistant. This can be perceived as a step toward women priests (and it often is). I have talked to Catholics who think that the Church will change it's mind about women priests based on the fact of altar girls. I know theologically the two role (server & priest) are of a different kind, but considering the magnitude of the dissenting movement to ordain women it seems in the Church's best interest to avoid sending out such messages. I think these reasons may have something to do with why the Church has chosen to restrict this role and prefer altar boys, and allow altar girls in necessity.

Peace

[IcePrincessKRS]

At my parish we have a couple altar girls. I personally am opposed to having altar girls unless its a necessity. At every (weekend) Mass we have approximately 16 servers, mostly boys (occasionally we have 1 or 2 girls). There's no need to have girls if we've got that many boys serving. Most of our lectors and EMs are men.

The parish I grew up in had over 80 altar boys up till when they allowed girls to serve, from that point the number of boys we had dropped. :(

[God Conquers]

I would say that there are added problems to ministries overpopulated by females.

On the Altar: A whole bunch of women serving one man (the priest). Let's let the men perform some service. I think that this image is probably not what the feminists want to see (not that we should be catering to them in the least)

In Parish life: The Church has enough scandal. An all-female parish ministry is just asking for some more. God Bless our Priests.

[PatrickRitaMichael]

I'm pretty ignorant of stuff like this, but it seems that it's not women's fault that men aren't interested in the priesthood these days. There are a number of factors that contribute and it seems that it's unfair to say that women serving would deter men. I can understand where you're coming from, but does it really hinder men from wanting to be priests if women help serve? I don't really think men would care that much, unless it was 100% women besides the priest (that might seem a bit odd). But I'm not a man so I wouldn't know.

If God made me a man, I'd be a priest in a heartbeat. Since I'm not, and I'm not bitter, I would like to be able to help with Mass in other ways.

This is random...

[IcePrincessKRS]

For adults I think your points would and should hold true, PartickRitaMichael. Women EMs and lectors shouldn't deter men from serving on the altar. But I know for fact that it does keep boys from being altar servers alot of the time. I saw it happen in the parish I grew up in, and even to my own brothers.:(

[Laudate_Dominum]

I'm pretty ignorant of stuff like this, but it seems that it's not women's fault that men aren't interested in the priesthood these days. There are a number of factors that contribute and it seems that it's unfair to say that women serving would deter men. I can understand where you're coming from, but does it really hinder men from wanting to be priests if women help serve? I don't really think men would care that much, unless it was 100% women besides the priest (that might seem a bit odd). But I'm not a man so I wouldn't know.

If God made me a man, I'd be a priest in a heartbeat. Since I'm not, and I'm not bitter, I would like to be able to help with Mass in other ways.

This is random...

I agree with what IcePrincess said. It's not that it's in any way women's fault. It's just a valid, practical consideration.

I usually go to a parish where there are only altar boys and all of the ones whom I know personally are thinking about the priesthood, they are between 10 and 13 years old. Since I was once a boy of that age I know that it is natural to thing of things in 'boy' and 'girl' terms and to want to identify with the 'boy' things or the manly things. When girls serve at the altar it takes away the idea of the server as a priest-junior (maybe not in the mind of people who want women priests though). While technically the server is not a priest-junior, but I think it's seen like this naturally to boys. It's like playing cowboys, or playing soldiers. It's also like a father-son thing. You get to help 'dad' and be like a priest. Kind of like when a father let's his son do something that he does, like help fix the car, or help him with his work. It's a natural part of the mentality of a boy. I am speaking from my experience. Seeing altar girls makes it a totally different kind of thing. It changes the perception of the ministry for boys and I would say that it most definitely would (and does) keep boys from being as attracted to the altar as much as they would be otherwise. It's not a question of women's dignity or anything, nor is it an endorsement of a 'no girls allowed attitude', it's simply a valid practical consideration. And I don't know if this is part of the Church's reasoning, I'm just speculating.

I have a friend who is a deacon and he assists at Mass and runs a Eucharistic Holy Hour with benediction and it has always struck me as beautiful to see him and his son who is a server up in the sanctuary doing stuff. Especially during benediction when he elevates the monstrance and his son does the incense. It reminds of the old covenant priesthood in which it was passed from father to son, and the son was like a priestly apprentice to his father.

Another thing that is just my speculation is the fact that the priesthood is male for theological reasons. Spiritual fatherhood, headship, bridegroom symbolism, etc. tie in with the priesthood. So ministries that are linked even in a remote way with the activities proper to the priest (ie., server, EM, lector) are in some degree linked with the theology of the priesthood. So it seems that having men do these ministries when a lay person is actually necessary would be more appropriate.

The example of the server seems obvious enough to me, they assist at the altar in a hands on way. The altar is where the sacrifice is offered by the priest. They have a quasi-priestly role just by the fact that they are the direct assistant of the priest. Also with the distribution of Communion in cannot be denied that this is proper to the priest who alone stands 'in persona Christi'. When EMs are necessary it seems like a male would be preferable since the Liturgical symbolism suggests a masculine role. We recieve Christ as from Christ Himself (at the last supper), and our receptivity is a kind of feminine symbol because we represent the bride of Christ at the feast of the Bridegroom.

I'm not trying to argue against the Church's current legislation on EM's and servers. I'm arguing in favor of it actually. Women in these roles is supposed to be in cases of necessity, not arbitrarily or as a preference. I'm just speculating as to why this might be the case. I know it's not sexism anyway.

[Norseman82]

I think the line in the article hit the nail right on the head:

a generation of religious illiterates is being produced by the current catechetical programme.

It's not just in Ireland, but inthe US as well. The promulgation of the new Catehcism should help stem and hopefully reverse this trend, but I've seen in my own generation (in school in the 70's and 80's) how unknowledgeable many are of the faith.

In addition, I have a problem with the concept of bending over backwards to placate a group of "whiners" (I'm sorry, I can't think of a better word). I also hear so many times on issues like abortion, homosexuality, divorce, cohabitation, etc, that the Church needs to keep up with society.

BALONEY!

The problem is not that the Church is out of step with society.

The problem is that society is stepping outside the bounds that the church has maintained.

[Carrie]

At my parish we have a couple altar girls. I personally am opposed to having altar girls unless its a necessity. At every (weekend) Mass we have approximately 16 servers, mostly boys (occasionally we have 1 or 2 girls). There's no need to have girls if we've got that many boys serving. Most of our lectors and EMs are men.

The parish I grew up in had over 80 altar boys up till when they allowed girls to serve, from that point the number of boys we had dropped.

16 servers? Wow! My parish is so small, we only have one altar boy.

[p0lar_bear]

Okay, I do not have the press release, but I know the Holy See has addressed this issue of "girl Altar servers" within that last four months or so.

The HS said that pastors are not to actively seek girl servers when there are boys available (thus, they should be actively seeking boy/young men servers). They may IF there aren't enough boys to get to serve. It is NOT a matter of "equality" nor having a "right" to serve at the Altar.

Could you find this for me?

Thanks.

[cmotherofpirl]

I used to think it should all be equal on the altar. But then I was a Girl Scout leader, and later on I had sons. Girls and boys do need separate activities, all are not equal, and at a certain age boys will shy away from any activity that includes girls. Girls feel the same way. Letting girls serve drives out boys.

Since being an altar server is a step towards priesthood (no matter how much people deny this), I really think altarservers for the most part should be boys, just like I think Boy Scouts should be just boys. Males need to learn and bond with males.

Readers and EEMs are seen as serving the community, servers serve the altar.

And I do get annoyed at going to Mass where everybody but the priest is female.

Female lectors, greeters, offeratory people, servers and EEMS?

I can understand boys developmental level, but where are all the grown men?

Edited February 24, 2004 by cmotherofpirl

[Hananiah]

I was told by Father Joseph Fessio, S.J., in December of 1993 that a nun of the Missionaries of Charity had heard from Mother Teresa that the Holy Father had told her that there would never be altar girls as long as he was the Pope. Father Fessio felt fairly confident that the remarks were accurate. So did I, believing in my waning days as a true believer in all things papal that Pope John Paul II would hold the line on this abomination. When word reached me in March of 1994 that the Pope was about to permit altar girls, I telephoned Father John A. Hardon, S.J., who had heard the same thing about Mother Teresa having been assured by the Holy Father that there would never be altar girls in his pontificate. Father Hardon instructed me to track down Mother Teresa and to ask her to call the Holy Father directly to plead with him not to permit altar girls.

Well, it took some doing, but I tracked down Mother Teresa to Hong Kong. She came to the phone when I explained to a nun the purpose of my telephone call. She was very kind. I told her that the Pope was about to announce permission for altar girls. There was silence on the phone for a good twenty seconds. Mother then said, "This will be a disaster for the Church. They will be pushing for women's ordination next." She assured me that she would try to call the Pope, which I was told later that she did. She spoke with then Monsignor Dziwisz, who told her that the matter had been decided. I am told that Mother Teresa was stunned by the Pope's change of mind.

Thomas A. Droleskey

http://www.christorchaos.com/article_reallybigshew.html