Feminized Catholicism In Ireland

[Dave]

Some news from Ireland . . .

Feminised Catholicism could mean end of Church

By Kieron Wood

The Catholic Church in Ireland faces the worst crisis in its history.The scandal of clerical sexual abuse has compounded the catastrophic decline in vocations to the priesthood.

All but one of the diocesan seminaries have closed and a generation of religious illiterates is being produced by the current catechetical programme. The pews are emptying more rapidly than ever before. In some Dublin parishes, Sunday Mass attendance has fallen to well below 10 per cent.

The new Co-adjutor Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, has an answer to this accelerating trend. Women.

Martin, a former top flyer in the Vatican, is expected to take over from Cardinal Desmond Connell as head of the country's biggest and most important diocese within the next two months. His views on the role of women in the Catholic Church were made abundantly clear from the moment he stepped off the plane from Rome.

In his first session with journalists last August, he said women had told him they didn't feel fully welcome in the Church and he wanted to address that.

Martin's intentions were soon realised. At his liturgical reception in Dublin's Pro-Cathedral the following day, almost all the liturgical tasks - except celebrating Mass - were carried out by women. The lectors, the cantor, many of the servers and all those bringing up the gifts were female. Indeed, it seemed as if there was no place for men in Martin's Church, except presiding at the altar.

The gesture did not go unnoticed. Last week, during a talk at All Hallows College entitled `A listening and humble Church at the service of the people of God', Martin revealed that he had received letters of protest following the ceremony. "Many people wrote to me after I spoke in the Pro-Cathedral to tell me to stop running after the fashionable trend of talking about women in the Church," he said.

Despite the criticism, the archbishop stuck to his guns. "New structures for evangelisation must reflect on the position of women in the Church," he said. "I am acutely aware of the expectations of so many women in the Church today, of their impatience and at times of their anger at promises not being fulfilled.

"It is easy to say that all other offices in the Church except ministerial priesthood are open to women, and then to remain blocked in a closed, male clerical system. There is still a long way to go here. A Church deprived of the evangelising contribution of women is working on less than one cylinder.

"Our parish communities and our diocesan structures need to change. Prejudices and fears by men, especially priests, need to be addressed."

Martin said that it was easy to create "a special form of political correctness in religious matters, which is equally as empty as its secular counterpart, because it shares the same philosophical foundations." So is the appeasement of disaffected Catholic women a "special form of political correctness", or is it really the answer to today's fast emptying churches?

Whatever Martin's personal views, he has made clear that, as archbishop, he will support Catholic Church teaching on the ordination of female priests. Ten years ago, Pope John Paul reiterated that the Church had no power to confer the ministerial priesthood on women.

Unlike the question of married priests, which is a disciplinary issue, the ordination of women is a doctrinal matter and is no longer open for discussion, despite polls which suggest that many Catholics would support the ordination of women.

Certainly the Irish Catholic hierarchy has been slow in realising the full potential of women to fill senior positions, such as diocesan administrator.

The question is whether the appointment of women to a handful of senior jobs will win back those who no longer practise their faith - and whether the future of the Catholic Church depends on wooing women.

Ten years ago, the Swiss authorities conducted a survey to find out how religion was passed from one generation to the next. The poll found that in families where the father was a regular churchgoer and the mother was non-practising, 44 per cent of the children eventually became regular churchgoers.

But if the father was non-practising - even if the mother went to church regularly - only 2 per cent of their children would become regular worshippers, while more than 60 per cent of the children would never attend church.

Commenting on the results of the research, author and Anglican vicar Robbie Low said: "The results are shocking, but they should not be surprising. They are about as politically incorrect as it is possible to be, but they simply confirm what psychologists, criminologists, educationalists and traditional Christians know. You cannot buck the biology of the created order.

"A father's influence, from the determination of a child's sex by the implantation of his seed to the funerary rites surrounding his passing, is out of all proportion to his allotted - and severely diminished - role in western liberal society.

"We are ministering in Churches that accepted fatherlessness as a norm - and even an ideal. Emasculated liturgy, gender-free Bibles and a fatherless flock are increasingly on offer. In response, these Churches' decline has, unsurprisingly, accelerated."

In the Church of England,where women priests and feminist theology became com monplace in the 1990s, the ratio of men to women in the pews has dropped from near parity to a ratio approaching one-to-two. Of the 300,000 who left the Church of England during the "decade of evangelism", around 200,000 are reckoned to have been men.

The picture is not far different in the United States. According to a survey by pollster George Barna, 43 per cent of American men attended church in 1992. Within four years, that had dropped to 28 per cent. Jesuit priest Fr Patrick Arnold said: "It is not at all unusual to find a female-to-male ratio of two to one, or three to one. I have seen ratios in parish churches as high as seven to one."

Feminist theologian Rosemary Radford Reuther maintains that women now make up between 60 and 65 per cent of the active churchgoers in countries like Ireland. Wherever western Christianity has spread, the Church has become feminised. The only religions today with practising male majorities are eastern Orthodoxy, Islam, Orthodox Judaism and eastern creeds such as Buddhism.

According to some observers, feminism has permeated the very highest echelons of the Church. American writer Leon Podles, author of The Church Impotent: The Feminization of Christianity, said: "In attempting to demonstrate to the feminists the importance of women in the Catholic Church, the current Pope, for all his excellencies and orthodoxy, has undermined theroleofmen in the Church. He talks about mutual subordination, but has never mentioned the father as the head of the family.

"Western Christianity has become part of the feminine world from which men feel they must distance themselves to attain masculinity. That is why men stay away from church, especially when they see that the men involved in church tend to be less masculine.

"Psychological studies have detected a connection between femininity in men and interest in religion. There may even be a physical difference. Among men, football players and movie actors have the highest testosterone level, ministers [of religion], the lowest.

"By driving men away from the Church, this feminisation has undermined Christian fatherhood. A man cannot be a Christian father unless he is a Christian first, and even fatherhood has been undermined in the Churches. In parishes, fathers are ignored or denigrated. Priests boast that they became priests because of their mothers. Don't they have fathers?"

One of the most far-reaching attempts to placate feminist critics in recent years has been the introduction of altar girls. But analysts observe that the custom of females in the sanctuary has no precedent in Catholic liturgical history, and has driven a wedge between the Catholic Church and its closest ecumenical partners, the Orthodox Churches, which remain firm in their opposition to feminist influence.

American commentator Fr Brian Harrison, speaking at a seminar in New Jersey, said: "There has been a huge drive for altar girls among liberal Catholics, and it is bishops, after all, who are the decisionmakers. They, not the rest of us, are the ones who have to bear the brunt of the feminist rage and rhetoric against the `patriarchal' Church, and have to formulate some sort of response to these women's ceaseless and strident demands.

"I suspect that the enthusiasm for altar girls on the part of some generally conservative bishops probably springs not so much from any deep liturgical, historical or spiritual reflection on the intrinsic merits or demerits of that innovation, but rather from the feeling that, as pastors, they should to some extent be responsive to popular demand.

"As a result, instead of reflecting the sublime harmony of the communion of saints, a foretaste of heaven itself, the sanctuary comes to symbolise an earthly battlefield in the new cold war against `patriarchy'."

This artificially-contrived "battle" between men and women in the Church is the antithesis of Catholicism. The problems of the Church will not be resolved by placating women at the expense of men, but by encouraging that `iconic complementarity' between the sexes urged in Pope John Paul's 1995 Letter to Women.

Martin accepts that "a stronger feminine face in the Church require an authentic masculine face alongside it", but adds that "masculinity must, of course, not be confused with patriarchy". However, if that battle against `patriarchy' results in the estrangement of the remnant of faithful male Catholics, the battle for the future of the Church will be lost.

As Low put it: "The Churches are losing men and, if the Swiss figures are correct, are therefore losing children. You cannot feminise the Church and keep the men - and you cannot keep the children if you do not keep the men."

[Laudate_Dominum]

I'm scared.

[Adeodatus]

Alas!

Filling the sanctuary with women is the one thing guaranteed to drive away new vocations to the priesthood. What do people see when they come to church? Loads of women in the sanctuary, and one man dressed as a woman! Great! No ordinary young man is going to think, 'I'd like to be a part of that!'

I'm not opposed to girl altar servers, but if we were to have them, I would keep them separate from the boys. Teenage boys, whilst interested in the opposite sex, don't want to be seen doing something 'girly'. And if altar service is feminised, that's a whole load of vocations to the priesthood that will dry up.

Inherent in the these ideas of "the Church being open to women" is a chauvinistic condescension. They are saying, in effect, "You, as a lay person or worse a lay woman, are nothing unless you start doing "priestly" things". This is just clericalism all over again. The laity have their dignity from their baptism. They don't need to 'ape' the clergy to have Christian dignity and worth.

I'm not opposed to women readers and extraordinary Eucharistic ministers. But I do think we place a mistaken emphasis on 'pseudo-clerical activity' (like giving out Communion). Hence the unnecessary numbers of Eucharistic ministers being commissioned, who---contrary to the mind of the Church---give out Communion while the priests are just sat in the sanctuary twiddling their thumbs.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Alas!

Filling the sanctuary with women is the one thing guaranteed to drive away new vocations to the priesthood. What do people see when they come to church? Loads of women in the sanctuary, and one man dressed as a woman! Great! No ordinary young man is going to think, 'I'd like to be a part of that!'

I'm not opposed to girl altar servers, but if we were to have them, I would keep them separate from the boys. Teenage boys, whilst interested in the opposite sex, don't want to be seen doing something 'girly'. And if altar service is feminised, that's a whole load of vocations to the priesthood that will dry up.

Inherent in the these ideas of "the Church being open to women" is a chauvinistic condescension. They are saying, in effect, "You, as a lay person or worse a lay woman, are nothing unless you start doing "priestly" things". This is just clericalism all over again. The laity have their dignity from their baptism. They don't need to 'ape' the clergy to have Christian dignity and worth.

I'm not opposed to women readers and extraordinary Eucharistic ministers. But I do think we place a mistaken emphasis on 'pseudo-clerical activity' (like giving out Communion). Hence the unnecessary numbers of Eucharistic ministers being commissioned, who---contrary to the mind of the Church---give out Communion while the priests are just sat in the sanctuary twiddling their thumbs.

Sweeeeeeeeeeeet!!!!

[bluengold]

Okay, I do not have the press release, but I know the Holy See has addressed this issue of "girl Altar servers" within that last four months or so.

The HS said that pastors are not to actively seek girl servers when there are boys available (thus, they should be actively seeking boy/young men servers). They may IF there aren't enough boys to get to serve. It is NOT a matter of "equality" nor having a "right" to serve at the Altar.

With all my love and respect for JPII, I feel this an area the HS dropped the ball on back in 1993 (when the HS allowed for girl servers). It has been terribly abused (Shoot, I just came from Holy Mass and there were, gasp!, two girl serevrs! Good grief, no wonder having boy/young men as Altar serevrs is no longer a "feeder system" for priestly vocations!)

Now then, for the rest of the "servers/lectors/extra-ordinary ministers of Holy Communion": Yes, I believe there are too many females in these "positions". However, the argument may be made that they would have none of these positions because the men won't step up. Vatican II was NOT a council to get the laity more involved in these positions for the liturgy. It was to encourage the laity to actively participate moreso in the liturgy (IE: not praying novenas, rosarys etc).

To that I say so what?! Then let the priest do most of the liturgy. Priests can have a major influence on priestly vocations! When was the last time you have even heard, during a homily, a priest encouraging vocations to the priesthood? Me? TWO TIMES in the last 6 years!

The "feminization" of the Mass needs to stop.

Or, was this the agenda all along?

[Laudate_Dominum]

Well I don't think it can be denied that there has been a fierce agenda to "feminize", "laicize" and "liberalize" the Church (among other things). In case anyone has doubts, here is a small sample of whats out there:

[Edited by Ice Princess: removed the unsavory URLs for LD]

Once the Church is run by the laity it can embrace homosexuality and ordain women so that these new lesbian priests can spread worship of the goddess Sophia throughout the Church so that women don't feel left out by all this homophobic, patriarchal religion. ;)

Edited February 23, 2004 by IcePrincessKRS

[Thomas]

I have yet to formulate a strict opinion on the subject, I know too little to do that.

I would be interested in the view of a female phatmasser....

-Thomas

[Laudate_Dominum]

I would be interested in the view of a female phatmasser....

Yeah, where are all the ladies?

[bluengold]

LD, you have a cast-riron stomach if you peruse these sites!!

For the record, whatever the Church says for the liturgy is fine with me (whether there are female "servers/lectors/EMoHC" or not).

My concern, as some others have alluded to, is that the Mass has been "overrun" with too many females at the cost of priestly vocations.

I have nothing against women. I am married to one, and I pray daily to the greatest of all God's created beings, Our Blessed Mother! :D

Our Lady of Victory,

Pray for us!

[Ellenita]

Oh Please! Are men really so unsure of their masculinity that the sight of a woman server/EM forces them to abandon their faith?! If so their faith cannot have been built on a very strong foundation....and I don't think women could be 'blamed' for that!

There ought to be some consideration in the article about the influence of secular society on the concept of 'feminine' and 'masculine' - the 'laddish culture' (which is prevalent certainly in the media in the UK and is also frequently reinforced by Hollywood), gives status to men who have sex outside marriage, booze, abdigate their responsibility towards any children they father etc, all of which is the exact opposite of the lifestyle which is expected by the church. The media perptuates the adoration and consequent status which is given to sports stars, and men working in the film and music industry despite their lifestyles so it's no wonder young men decide the church isn't for them.

Isn't it about time we started reclaiming the definition of masculinity within the true Christian understanding of the word rather than allowing secular society to abuse it?!

It would be interesting to see if the evidence in the Swiss study concerning 'non practising church going' fathers also indicated that they were 'non practising' in terms of other fatherly duties aswell.

[FaustinaVianney]

I must say that I agree with the men on this. So much of the Mass is done by women, but at the same time we can't blame them, if the men aren't going to do it someone has to, although it could be a big circle...men aren't helping because they don't see other men helping at the Mass, and women are helping at the Mass because no one else is, someone has to step up and break the cycle...

I don't like girl altar servers. I don't see why it is 'unfair' to say no to a girl that wants to do it as long as there are boys that are willing to serve at the Mass. These girls cannot grow up and become priest, so why give them the idea that one day they might. Isn't the altar server like an apprentice to the priest?? At the parish I attend while at school in Cinci there has been ONE girl server in two years. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. We all have roles in society and we all must realize the importance of this.

Women have a great role model, Mother Mary. She is a guide for our Church, yet she wasn't a priest or one of the 12 apostles.

[cmotherofpirl]

I know they are out there, but I object to you posting them. :blink:

Edited February 22, 2004 by cmotherofpirl

[Laudate_Dominum]

I know they are out there, but I object to you posting them.

Yeah, it's too late to edit, but it was probably a bit indiscreet. Maybe a Mediator of Meh will edit the post for us. I cringe just seeing those infamous URL's posted here.

[track2004]

To that I say so what?! Then let the priest do most of the liturgy. Priests can have a major influence on priestly vocations! When was the last time you have even heard, during a homily, a priest encouraging vocations to the priesthood? Me? TWO TIMES in the last 6 years!

The "feminization" of the Mass needs to stop.

I just transfered parishes because my old parish was uber liberal and I couldn't handle the way they interpreted things, this being one of them. I had many a conversation defending the Church's position on female Priests. At my new parish the Priest asks a family (the family changes every week) to pray for vocations and it is an intention every Mass. I love that because even in a Catholic High School I rarely hear people trying to encourage the religious life. I have hope in the growth of vocations because a few of my friends will become priests in May and they are going to be amesome priests. They are also the kind of guys who are comfortable encouraging the religious life!

[bluengold]

Oh Please! Are men really so unsure of their masculinity that the sight of a woman server/EM forces them to abandon their faith?! If so their faith cannot have been built on a very strong foundation....and I don't think women could be 'blamed' for that!

Bing, bing, bing, bing!!!!!!

Ellenita gets the prize!

Ellenita, you read the posts here. You know of the terribly poor catechesis within the Church in America for the last 30 years. It isn't necessarily the case that men have been "unsure of their masculinity" but the fact they most of them, in this time period, have been so terribly influenced by the culture which we live in!

That is, the huge push for "equality" in the secular world, which has poured over into Catholic academia and dioceses.

Take a look at many dioceses which have put religious sisters into "pastoral associate" positions. The underlining mantra is, "If you won't make us priests, we'll run the beaver dam place!" (their job title says "associate", or "co-ordinator" but they have to bring in a priest on Sunday to have Mass while the sisters are the ones in charge. oooops! I mean "celebrant" or "presider")

Or, in many situations, sympathetic priests put these types into DRE, liturgist, youth minister postions where they then can push their Call to Action agenda (not in all situations, but many).

After many years, the "men" just have a "what the hell, I guess this stuff is okay" attitude. All the while, Sister Issues, or Father Groovy, make hay with the kids and all of the women (and many men) who simply adore her and him. The few men who DO know their faith have ZERO influence on the situation (the women who also know their faith are labeled baby-making, pre-Vatican II, rigid fundamentalists who cannot "keep up with the times").

This problem of women running the liturgy goes much deeper than we think. Yes, MANY men have dropped the ball in making sure there is a proper "balance" (Good grief guys! Let's get some chutzpah!). However, I think LD with his many "feminazi" websites has hit the nail right on the head in many situations across the Westeren world.

God help us. :wacko: