Medjugorje Hoax

[Deb]

Now, imagine that you are 16 years old when this happens. Mirjana was the second oldest. This was her life in the beginning:

Each morning during the subsequent school year, two secret police officers would come to her families apartment and take her in handcuffs eighty miles from home where she would be interrogated for one to three hours.
They tell her that she will not be able to finish school if she keeps up her story. She will not go to the University. She will be sent to a mental hospital. She will be put in prison. That there are people who want her shot for her lies. When they realize they cannot scare her into denying what she knows to be the truth, they start on with what they will do to her family. That her father will lose his job, will lose his home, will go to prison. They tell her that if she will admit it is all a lie she will go to the best schools and have any job she wants, that her family will get a nicer home. This was under communist rule remember.
After her daily interrogation she would be dropped off at school where the instructors mocked her and humilitated her and urged her classmates to join in. She was totally alone. She would come home every day in tears. Her father's hair turned white in one year.
This all occured in Sarajevo where she lived. The others lived in Medjugorje. She has said the fifteen months of this was the best she had because she did not have to share Mary with the others when she appeared. It was just her and the blessed mother.
This is just a tiny part of her story. When you hear her tell you about things, you know there is no deception in her. She has been living this for almost 27 years as have the other 5. Their lives are not full of fun and wealth. They are full of hard work and suffering and charity to all the pilgrims that demand so much of them.

Okay. I guess I am still stoked from my last visit.

Edited April 8, 2008 by Deb

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Deb' post='1495105' date='Apr 8 2008, 04:52 PM']Okay. I guess I am still stoked from my last visit. [/quote]

Must have been fun . I hope to visit either Fatima or Lourdes (hopefully both) someday.

[Jaime]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1495101' date='Apr 8 2008, 05:48 PM'] offer still stands. Anyone who wants to check out the book, send me your email addy.[/quote]


I think I've found it online once. And if I recall, there is a good reason why its self published.

[goldenchild17]

burn . I still thought it was great. Far better than any purported defense of the apparitions in my mind.

Edited April 8, 2008 by goldenchild17

[Jaime]

It wasn't a burn on you my friend

[Deb]

I have read the book before. It is by Michael Davies, the guy who supported the Society of Pius X, wasn't it?

Anyway. The book is nothing but trash and is so offensive in parts and so ridiculously stupid in others that it is almost unreadable.

He has one part where he talks about the lavish wealth that both Jakov and Marjana have with double garages and stately homes and security gates. What a load of croutons. I have been to both of their houses. They do have fences around their houses. Even I in my doddering old age could go over one. Not any more of a fence than most suburban neighborhoods have. Their houses are not grand. They are just houses. Mirjana still takes pilgrims into her home and feeds them for crying out loud. I suppose the author (God rest his soul) figured no one would ever go to their houses and dispute his croutons.

He lists Fr. Jozo Zovko as an early supporter of the seers who is forbidden to celebrate mass to the faithful or to preach in Herzogovina. Yeah, that was a condition that the communists put on him after they tortured him in prison for 18 months. The bishop however, who first supported the children (Fr. Jozo did not until the Lord told him to protect the children) changed his mind after the police told him to change his story or he would end up in prison. He called Fr. Jozo and told him he was not going to prison over something that had not been proven.
Fr. Jozo will be cannonized at some time. Just being in his presence is knowing you are standing in the presence of an incredibly holy man. Mary referred to her visiting him many times when he was in prison. I have heard him speak twice and been blessed by him and I will only say that the power that flows out of him is glorious to behold.
But, the author can just toss out something that makes it sound like because he was banned from returning to Medjugorje, he must be a fraud too. I could debunk this entire book if I wanted to waste my time but, I don't.

I just figure that God has already discussed this with him and that is between the two of them. Just like when the bad guys wanted to kill the apostles and were told that they killed Jesus thinking this group would break up. It didn't and if it wasn't of God, it would disband and if it was of God, then best let it be.
That may be the best possibility. Either believe it or not. Just don't try to trash it with lies and innuendo because if of God, one will answer for that.

Davies also thinks that what will happen is at some point the seers will state that all must choose between the apparition or the catholic church and all will choose the apparitions. I have no idea what drug he was on when he came up with that.

Okay. I am done now. Adoration time.

Edited April 8, 2008 by Deb

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote name='prose' post='1495046' date='Apr 8 2008, 03:44 PM']Sorry, just to clarify, you are implying that the Church made it up and that the Church is evil? Or that the Church is evil and Satan is encouraging people to become Catholic for that reason?

Either way, it seems to me that if the "Big Bad Catholic Church" made it up, they certainly aren't doing much to encourage it. In fact, they seem to be staying out of being official until further notice. I would think if they were making it up, it would have been approved years ago. And if Satan is directing people to be good Catholics, he is sure losing a lot of souls who are following Christ now. That doesn't make sense either.[/quote]

well, i wasn't trying ot argue. but.

it'd be possible satan is leading people wrongly into the CC. i don't find much wrong with the CC in terms of being evil, but i'd entertain it as a possiblity.

it's possible that the CC wouldn't approve it even if they fabricated it, because it'd be premature to do it now before it's stopped and it'd look funny. i don't think the CC has fabricated officially like that. maybe at the local level, which would be detached from the mother church. i'd entertain that idea, but it's probbaly given the bishop doens't approve more likely if any fabrication, the local pepole and vendors and book sellers etc.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1495130' date='Apr 8 2008, 05:16 PM']It wasn't a burn on you my friend[/quote]

It's all good. I personally find his work to be generally very decent, though admittedly this was not his best work. I definitely disagree with a lot of what he writes (otherwise I wouldn't be a sede), but I think there are certain things in his works, and this one too, that should not be dismissed just because of the weakness of some of the other parts, because I think the good parts outweigh the bad and make the case for itself. Sometimes I think authors will include a lot of weaker information just to make their stuff look weightier when in fact a shorter work consisting of just the strong facts would be far more effective. I think he falls into this trap a lot and his argument suffers because of it, because people dismiss the good because they see the rest of the weakness.

[Deb]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1495167' date='Apr 8 2008, 07:09 PM']well, i wasn't trying ot argue. but.

it'd be possible satan is leading people wrongly into the CC. i don't find much wrong with the CC in terms of being evil, but i'd entertain it as a possiblity.

it's possible that the CC wouldn't approve it even if they fabricated it, because it'd be premature to do it now before it's stopped and it'd look funny. i don't think the CC has fabricated officially like that. maybe at the local level, which would be detached from the mother church. i'd entertain that idea, but it's probbaly given the bishop doens't approve more likely if any fabrication, the local pepole and vendors and book sellers etc.[/quote]

I think you have to explain this a little better to me. Are you suggesting that somehow, someone in the CC at some level was able to get six CHILDREN to make all of this up and then keep it up for almost 27 years to get people to come into the Catholic Church?
Evil and the Catholic Church? I am kind of offended by that premise, if indeed that is what you are saying.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i do not believe that they fabricated it. all i'm saying is it's possible that they fabricated it, and i'd entertain that possibility.
i am sorry if by entertaining the idea you are offended, but that is my belief that i am willing to entertain.
by entertain, i am only admitting the possibility might exist and not excluding the idea necessarily.
the reasons you state are why i tend not to believe it's fabricated by the church at any level.
the difference is that you are more necessarily precluding fabrication by the church.

if it was fabricated by the CC though i would not say that means the CC is evil. only the people who did it is.
only if satan is fabrcating to get ppl into the CC bc it's evil would i think the CC evil. but, that's a premise that must be established, and if established, one could not disagree that it's evil. (ie if it's evil, i believe it's evil)

you yourself said everyone has to make up their mind on this matter. i'd expect you wouldn't say that and then be offended if they even entertain (not even believe) that it's not true or a hoax etc.
i think you're probably reading into this too much.

Edited April 9, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[Deb]

I am sorry but, more words doesn't make your premise any clearer. Could you do that in three or four coherent sentences?

[Galloglasses]

My main aguement against mudjegorje, is that it is so diversitory. Think about it, has any other apparition divided opinions not only of theologians, but of the laity so sharply as Mudjegoje done? Apparitions of Our Lady have ticked off members of other Christian denominations before, but thats usually born out of apologetics for their own churches, (if people from Heaven are advocating another Church it REALLY looks bad for your Church), but has it before divided us so sharply? Why would Mary continue to perform miracles there if she is aware of the effect its happening on the Church. She wouldn't. Medjugorje isn't like [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Zeitoun"]Zeitoun[/url], were she united many Christians of various denominations by... basically showing her face. However, what REALLY put me off Mudjegorje was this diary entry by a visionary.

"Friday 4 September, 1981. Today, we waited for our Lady at Marija's house. Marija, Ivanka, Jakov and I (Vicka) were there. We started to pray at 6:20 p.m. Our Lady immediately appeared. We asked her about the Friars and nuns from our parish. We asked about the man who saw Jesus along the road when he took the people in his car. He met a man who was covered in blood--this man was [b]Jesus[/b]--and he (Jesus) gave him a handkerchief soaked in blood and [b]told him to throw it into the river[/b]. Driving on further, he met a woman, it was the Blessed Virgin Mary, and she asked the driver for the blood-soaked handkerchief. The man gave her a handkerchief that belonged to him, [b]but Our Lady asked for the blood-stained handkerchief[/b]. When the man gave her the blood-stained handkerchief, Our Lady said: [b]'If you hadn't given it to me, it would have been the last judgment for everyone!' Our Lady said that this was true[/b]."

What distrubs me most is that a request from Mary overrides a command from Jesus. That and what Mary says contradicts Scripture. In the Book of Rvelations it is said that no one, not even The Son, will know the day nor the Hour, only the Father. Yet here it is implied that Mary knew when it was to happen, I don't know why the visionary didn't just absolutely freak out when he saw Jesus, (I know I would have), and i'm not sure what the symbolism is in throwing a hankercheif with soaked in blood over a bridge is supposed to be., but this is really off putting from me.

And about the house divided against itself, I haven't heard that daemons have been driven out of people at Medjugorje, i've only heard that afflictions have been cured. Unless the Devil or whatever this apparition is had somehow caused the afflictions in the first place, I don't think the divided house passage applies. Altough i'm going to wait till the Church finishes investigating it before I condemn it utterly or take a pilgrimage. I'd rather take no chances as of yet.

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1495593' date='Apr 9 2008, 12:51 PM']And about the house divided against itself, I haven't heard that daemons have been driven out of people at Medjugorje, i've only heard that afflictions have been cured. Unless the Devil or whatever this apparition is had somehow caused the afflictions in the first place, I don't think the divided house passage applies. Altough i'm going to wait till the Church finishes investigating it before I condemn it utterly or take a pilgrimage. I'd rather take no chances as of yet.[/quote]

Your reference is off-putting to me as well, and certainly gives reason for a cautionary skepticism if true. Nevertheless, I made reference to that passage with regards to the conversions that have taken place. A single conversion is a work of God far greater than the driving out of 1,000 demons. It is difficult for me to imagine Satan engineering an event inspiring devotion to Our Lord & Lady and facilitating countless conversions.

[Galloglasses]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1495643' date='Apr 9 2008, 02:16 PM']Your reference is off-putting to me as well, and certainly gives reason for a cautionary skepticism if true. Nevertheless, I made reference to that passage with regards to the conversions that have taken place. A single conversion is a work of God far greater than the driving out of 1,000 demons. It is difficult for me to imagine Satan engineering an event inspiring devotion to Our Lord & Lady and facilitating countless conversions.[/quote]

Actually I remember hearing a story about events happening a century or two back, (if anyone recognises this story and finds a reference I will be grateful, for now i'll look for it), Satan had appeared to a young girl in the guise of various Saints a number of times. Apparently this made the girl grow arrogent and proud, till the Devil appeared to her at age 11 as he really was. Apparently she made some kind of agreement with him.

Through her adult life she performed alot of miracles, (when I first heard this I don't think she casted out daemons, but if anyone has a source on this story please post), and gained the vafour respects... and ears of many, including bishops and Priests and people converted. I think some thought of her as a living Saint. However, on her deathbed she revealed the truth of what was behind her power and her agreement with the devil, (I am not sure if this was a change of heart at confession by her deathbed or an intregel part of the devil's plan), whichever, the effect was immediate... and devastating. So sure people were that this person was Holy and of God, that when they heard this horrifying truth many either lost faith or became so lost and confused that they lost any concept of the divine or any grasp the had on understanding God. This affected simple lay people and theologically trained clergy. It happened somewhere in France and was quite devestating.

What I fear is that Medjugorje is something similar only it will have a much more profound and powerful effect on the Church across the world. Or if its real it could be the most glorious thing to happen in decades. The stakes are too high to make rash judgements, altough I am fairly leaning to thinking they are false, I will hold my peace till the Church has made her say.

[prose]

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1495593' date='Apr 9 2008, 12:51 PM']"Friday 4 September, 1981. Today, we waited for our Lady at Marija's house. Marija, Ivanka, Jakov and I (Vicka) were there. We started to pray at 6:20 p.m. Our Lady immediately appeared. We asked her about the Friars and nuns from our parish. We asked about the man who saw Jesus along the road when he took the people in his car. He met a man who was covered in blood--this man was [b]Jesus[/b]--and he (Jesus) gave him a handkerchief soaked in blood and [b]told him to throw it into the river[/b]. Driving on further, he met a woman, it was the Blessed Virgin Mary, and she asked the driver for the blood-soaked handkerchief. The man gave her a handkerchief that belonged to him, [b]but Our Lady asked for the blood-stained handkerchief[/b]. When the man gave her the blood-stained handkerchief, Our Lady said: [b]'If you hadn't given it to me, it would have been the last judgment for everyone!' Our Lady said that this was true[/b]."[/quote]

I am a Medujorge waiter. I don't believe or not believe it. I tend to lean towards not, but I am not decisive in that opinion.

HOWEVER,

This quote doesn't state what you imply it does. Perhaps the man did not do what Jesus asked and that is why Mary asked for the handkerchief. Her request may not have "over ridden" Jesus' request (if this is true). It may have been a second chance for the man to do what was asked of him. Seems to me that many pilgrims would want to keep something like that as a relic or something.

We just don't know.