Medjugorje Hoax

[dairygirl4u2c]

[mod]Link removed. --Era Might[/mod]

i know this is an isuse beat to death. but this link has most of the questionable things i've heard, all in one site. condensed for efficient discussion, which is uncommon.

i am mostly wanting to hear from those who believe in medjugoje.

how do you reconcile the things in that link?

would you agree.. that even if there are good fruits, it might not be legit otherwise? ie God can use a bad event ot bring about good.
the seers often seem phony to me, maybe i'm just being cynical.

[dairygirl4u2c]

The Virgin: "I do not dispose of all graces...Jesus prefers that you address your petitions directly to him, rather than through an intermediary." (Chron. Corp. p.181, 277-278)

an ironic statement.... cause catholics would say mary is an intermediary, but prots would say hey maybe this has legit ness to it. ie, they'd say it's bad, yet the bad event must be having some good messages, according to their premise... or else mary should be prayed to and the bad event is saying a bad thing here.
but for catholics, it's a good event, but it's bad because of that thing and maybe they shouldn't pray to mary as much.

[Deb]

The Medjugorje apparitions are something that each person has to make their mind up about. Many of the things listed on that site were taken out of context or are just untrue. (Nothing by the Bishop can be looked on as true)

The Vatican has told the Bishop to keep his opinions to himself and that all comments regarding Medjugorje should be left to the Vatican. This is the only time in the history of apparitions that the Vatican has taken the immediate Bishop out of the picture.

So many little useless things. Jakov asking our Lady if a sports team would win and also wanting to shake her hand and wish her a Happy Birthday. Remember that Jakov was ten years old at the time.

I have been to talks by Jakov, Vicka, Marijana and Ivan as adults and I am convinced that THEY believe what they are saying. I have been present when Ivan and Marijana have had visions and I have no doubt that the Blessed Mother was in our presence.

I went there last year under protest and without a religious bone in my body. I returned with the knowledge that God existed, Jesus was our Lord and that I was loved. The last year has been an incredible conversion experience culminating in my confirmation at Easter Vigil.

I just got back from Medjugorje from my second trip last week. This time I went of my will, not because I was called. I returned with peace and joy and a stronger and more glorious faith. I also realized I do not need to go there to receive grace and gifts from God. Nothing is more powerful than my own church and my own priests. I weep for joy and gratitude at every mass.

While I was in Medjugorje this last time, I told the Lord that I did not need signs or gifts because I believed and asked him to grace those who needed them the most. He did. (well, he still gave me little gifties)
One of our group. who went because of my conversion story, has a video tape of the solid white alabaster statue that marks the spot of the first apparitions. In this tape, the eyes of the statue open, they are an indescribable blue, eyelashes etc and she smiles. I saw it right after it was shot as did many of our group. No one else witnessed it in person except for her. I got to enjoy her conversion. Sometimes, it takes a miracle to drive home the reality of God. I know it did with me. Then, the Holy Spirit takes over.

There IS a Charismatic element to this. Pope John Paul II himself spoke many many times on the need for Catholics today to bring the spirit back into their lives. He called this rediscovery of the charismatic dimension of the church the grace of a renewed Pentecost. This is a dynamism of supernatural origin. 10's of millions of people across the world have experienced this. If one looks at this supernatural outpouring of the spirit in the bible and in the saints, this is not something new. This is the way it is supposed to be. It brings an internal change to those who experience this. The Lord is pouring out his holy spirit in order to produce in people exactly what was produced in his Apostles in the first Pentecost. The Holy Spirit is only waiting for every person to seek him out with their heart and soul.

Today in the church there is a bias against religious experience. People are uncomfortable with it and think that it is reserved for the super holy or saints. So very wrong. What is happening to people in Medjugorje is the receipt of the Holy Spirit. The healing of hearts. The person emptying themselves so that the spirit may fill them. I have experienced it and witnessed it in so many people.

If this is a hoax, then it has still brought out miracle after miracle and conversion after conversion and that is a good thing. Nothing was as beautiful as listening to the mass in Croation or Italian and knowing everything that was going on. Hugging people you could not communicate with. (I couldn't take the German mass, I kept laughing. Sorry)

Anyway. Each person has to decide what they believe. I myself do not care if people believe or not. I only care that more people find their way to Our Lord, however they do it.

Mir.

Edited April 8, 2008 by Deb

[dairygirl4u2c]

dang that's a pretty inspiring story.
and all we got on the other side is allegations and speculation.

[Galloglasses]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1494901' date='Apr 8 2008, 11:30 AM']dang that's a pretty inspiring story.
and all we got on the other side is allegations and speculation.[/quote]

We have to wait till the magisterium has its say in the matter, I persoanlly don't beleive the miracles are from heaven. One need only looks at the 'revelations', 'Mary' shows to the visionaries, some of them directly contradict Our Lady of Fatima. The devil is not averse to making one think he is of God if it ultimately leads one away from God.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1494921' date='Apr 8 2008, 01:24 PM']We have to wait till the magisterium has its say in the matter, I persoanlly don't beleive the miracles are from heaven. One need only looks at the 'revelations', 'Mary' shows to the visionaries, some of them directly contradict Our Lady of Fatima. The devil is not averse to making one think he is of God if it ultimately leads one away from God.[/quote]


there is nothing that is contradicted.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1494921' date='Apr 8 2008, 12:24 PM']We have to wait till the magisterium has its say in the matter, I persoanlly don't beleive the miracles are from heaven. One need only looks at the 'revelations', 'Mary' shows to the visionaries, some of them directly contradict Our Lady of Fatima. The devil is not averse to making one think he is of God if it ultimately leads one away from God.[/quote]

I fully agree. And just a note, dairy, I think sites like that are not usually allowed to be posted, though there is some decent stuff on there.

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1494921' date='Apr 8 2008, 12:24 PM']The devil is not averse to making one think he is of God if it ultimately leads one away from God.[/quote]

A kingdom divided against itself cannot stand.

...I tend to believe the apparitions are legit, but I don't have any first-hand experience to go on and I have read next to nothing from primary sources. However, Randall Sullivan's book, [i]Miracle Detective[/i], was hugely influential in my deciding to be more open to the authenticity of the apparitions. I highly recommend that book for skeptics.

I also think that the "questionable" lines from the visions are most likely taken out of context.

[ChildoftheCreator]

I'm not 100% sure about the apparitions. I am leaning more on the side of thinking that they are real. However, I can say that Medjugorje was a major factor that led me to looking into the Catholic Church. I started to pray the Rosary and fast and my spiritual life increased and I got a greater love for God. I really would like to go there sometime for myself. I can tell you that in my life, if Medjugorje is a hoax by the devil devised to drive people away from the Church, then he is doing a horrible job.

[dairygirl4u2c]

although one line of reasoning that catholics are not permitted to entertain... is that by being driven into the CC it's deception by the devil and he's winning.

just an idea.
i'm not one to push those too much but for me ya never know.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1495012' date='Apr 8 2008, 02:39 PM']although one line of reasoning that catholics are not permitted to entertain... is that by being driven into the CC it's deception by the devil and he's winning.

just an idea.
i'm not one to push those too much but for me ya never know.[/quote]

yet that's the line of reasoning(to a degree) that I entertain .

Edited April 8, 2008 by goldenchild17

[prose]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1495012' date='Apr 8 2008, 02:39 PM']although one line of reasoning that catholics are not permitted to entertain... is that by being driven into the CC it's deception by the devil and he's winning.[/quote]


Sorry, just to clarify, you are implying that the Church made it up and that the Church is evil? Or that the Church is evil and Satan is encouraging people to become Catholic for that reason?

Either way, it seems to me that if the "Big Bad Catholic Church" made it up, they certainly aren't doing much to encourage it. In fact, they seem to be staying out of being official until further notice. I would think if they were making it up, it would have been approved years ago. And if Satan is directing people to be good Catholics, he is sure losing a lot of souls who are following Christ now. That doesn't make sense either.

[goldenchild17]

If anyone is interested I have a book (in rich text format) on my computer about the visions, by Michael Davies. He disagrees with my idea that they are diabolical, instead saying that they are simply false and fabricated. But he's got a lot of interesting information recorded that some here might want to read. It's on my website available for download, but I can't post the link here, so if you want it then just let me know your email address and I'll send it to you. Just scanning through it, one particularly interesting point is the following:

"Fraud on Film


The former Father Vego played a prominent part in the second incident. The "seers" and their Franciscan manipulators have consistently maintained that during their "ecstasies" they are immobile and without communication with the outside world. On 14 January 1985, a French cameraman named Jean-Louis Martin wished to test this claim while the "visionaries" were purporting to be in ecstasy in St. James’ Church. He made a stabbing movement towards the eyes of Vicka Ivankovic with his fingers. Vicka gave a start and jerked her head backwards. Fortunately, the entire incident was filmed and I possess a video-cassette which shows the incident in slow motion. The girl left the room and returned a few minutes later accompanied by no less a person than her old friend Ivica Vego who was wearing a very smart blue overcoat. Vego was very much in command and did most of the explaining. The fact that after his expulsion from the order he is still so actively involved with the visionaries is of no little significance. The hastily fabricated explanation which Vego had instructed Vicka to give went as follows:

"When I arrived in the chapel I saw Jean-Louis, I saw all the people, but when the ecstasy began I saw nothing except the Virgin Mary who had the Infant Jesus in her arms, and at that time I saw that the Infant Jesus would fall on the floor so I made a gesture to catch the Infant Jesus because He should not fall on the floor."


There could hardly be a more evident case of outright lying. It is inconceivable that during an apparition of Our Lady with the Child Jesus, the child could possibly slip. If, per impossible, this did happen, it is stretching coincidence beyond the bounds of credibility to be asked to believe that it happened at the precise moment that the journalist made the movement towards Vicka's eyes, and, finally, if she had been speaking the truth she would have moved forward towards the apparition and not backwards!

[Deb]

Whoa. Major evidence of 27 years of fraud there. Try this on instead:



Michael W. Petrides has done extensive study in brain laterality and visual perception research at the Institute of Living, and has doctoral training in clinical psychology at St. Louis University. He currently directs the Psychiatric Outpatient Clinic's mental health services for Catholic Charities in the Diocese of Norwich, Connecticut. The following is from his commentary that appeared in The Catholic Transcript, September 10, 1993:

It is extremely noteworthy that the reported apparitions in Medjugorje are the first apparitions in history to be throughly investigated by science. Professor Henri Joyeaux headed a team from the University of Montpellier, France. Dr. Frigerio and colleagues from Italy did further investigation. The regularity of the apparitions has made for consistent and extremely reliable findings.

Five alleged visionaries tested were found to simultaneously look at precisely the same spot (even though no reference point was visible) within one-fifth of a second of each other when the Blessed Virgin Mary allegedly appears. Such synchronization can only be explained by some external "object" holding their gaze -- but one which those around them could not see.

During the same one-fifth of a second, there are simultaneous kneeling and the cessation of eye movements. There is no eye movement during the entire apparition (from 3 to 45 minutes). There is also the simultaneous raising of their heads and gazing upwards while remaining fixated on a spot moving upwards when the apparition is finishing.

Two of the alleged visionaries do not blink at all during the apparition. The eyeball normally dries when there is no regular blinking (15-20 times a minute) to moisten the cornea, but lacrimal secretion does not seem necessary during the apparition. The other alleged visionaries blink about half the normal rate. None of them blinks in response to touching the eye during the apparition (cornea sensitivity to varying pressures is completely absent), although they blink normally at other times.

There is no reaction to pain during the apparition. When touched with an algometer, which causes a cutaneous lesion or skin burn, there was complete absence of sensitivity. The alleged visionaries react normally to pain at other times.

The interesting results of a hearing test before and during an apparition showed normal hearing, but during the apparition, an input of ninety decibels (equivalent to a loud explosion) showed NO reaction. Auditory evoked potential measurement (electrical activity of the ear) indicates normal ear activity with no transmission to the inner ear during the apparition. It is a measurable inhibition of hearing that is involuntary and inexplicable physiologically.

Electroencephalographic (EEG) tests confirm that the alleged visionaries' brain functioning is normal and healthy. EEG tests rule out the possibility of epilepsy or psychotic hallucinations. The alleged visionaries are not asleep or dreaming either. Hysterical neurotic reaction or pathological ecstasy is also ruled out by the EEG testing.

What EEG testing showed was that before the apparition, the brain waves are predominantly beta rhythm interspersed by alpha rhythm (normal conscious attentiveness). At the start of the apparition, the beta rhythm remains for a short time and then is replaced by an almost uninterrupted alpha rhythm. Alpha rhythm is most often observed during relaxation, in a state of expectation, or engaged in meditation. It also usually requires practice to achieve such a diffuse response. Because most of the brain is devoted to visual processing, it is noteworthy that the alpha rhythm over the entire cranium was exhibited while the alleged visionaries had their eyes wide open throughout the apparition. Closed eyes would be expected with alph rhythm because visual stimulation usually produces interference with alpha rhythm.

To test visual stimulation further, a 1000 watt light bulb was placed in front of the eyes of the alleged visionaries during the apparition. Not only is a 1000 watt light bulb usually painful to the eye but also it would normally cause increased blinking and influence alpha rhythm. There was no blinking movement of the eyelids to the 1000 watt stimulus. There was an interesting pupillary response. The pupil contracted as one would expect in bright light but there was no change in alpha rhythm to the 1000 watt light. This is scientifically inexplicable and never seen before. FOR THE PUPIL TO RESPOND, THE BRAIN MUST REGISTER THE LIGHT BUT NO BRAIN WAVE CHANGE TOOK PLACE. Additionally, such intense stimulation normally causes a significant cortical response, but none occurred during the apparition period.

During the apparition period, another scientifically inexplicable event takes place. The alleged visionaries voices stop during the time that they are having the vision. Even though all the muscles involved in speech continue (all mouth, jaw and throat muscles), the larynx (voice box) shuts off. This is physically impossible. The laryngeal function cannot be physically isolated from the rest of the muscles of speech. The larynx ceases to emit sound during the apparition -- except for one exception. In unison, during the apparition the alleged visionaries will be heard simultaneously praying, "Who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name..." When asked, they report Mary is leading them in the Lord's Prayer.

In summary, the unique aspects of the results of the scientific investigations point to the conclusion that nothing in the physical realm is allowed to interfere with the apparition experience. Scientific experts have defined the phenomena " as a state of active, intense prayer, partially disconnected from the external world, a state of contemplation with a separate person whom they alone can see, hear, and touch."

The current attitude of the church after fourteen years of scrutiny is a kind of provisional approval. Both the Pope and the former Bishops are treating and nurturing Medjugorje as a legitimate place of pilgrimage. Our Holy Father, Pope John Paul II strongly believes in the fruits of Medjugorje. In response to thanks for what he did to free Poland from communism he has said, "NO, NOT ME, BUT BY THE WORKS OF THE BLESSED VIRGIN ACCORDING TO HER AFFIRMATIONS AT FATIMA AND MEDJUGORJE." He also said "MEDJUGORJE IS THE FULFILLMENT AND CONTINUATION OF FATIMA." American Church leaders would do well to offer the same kind of provisional approval and pastoral assistance to those experiencing conversion through Medjugorje.

[goldenchild17]

offer still stands. Anyone who wants to check out the book, send me your email addy.