Referring To God In The Feminine

[Aloysius]

whilst God has all good traits of any category our limited minds can comprehend, God is masculine in relation to the human race and to the Church; the human race and the Church are feminine in relation to God. Addressing God as Mother from a human standpoint would be as incorrect as calling the Church the Father Church. both are unacceptable.

the imperfect analogies to help understand certain aspects of God are acceptable. addressing Him in that way in prayer is quite another thing entirely.

[Apotheoun]

God in His essence is beyond any form of intellectual conception, but He can be described ([i]not defined[/i]) by His energies ([i]energeiai[/i]), which come down to us, and which reveal His presence in the world (cf. St. Gregory of Nyssa, [i]Sixth Sermon on the Beatitudes[/i]). But the divine energies do not flow out from the divine essence; instead, they flow out from the three divine persons, and in the process they (i.e., the [i]energies[/i]) reveal God's tri-personal existence, while His nature remains utterly transcendent and beyond human thought, because God is [i]hyper-ousios[/i], [i]hyper-physis[/i], and [i]hyper-theos[/i] in essence.

Edited April 10, 2008 by Apotheoun

[Lena]

[quote name='aquinasavio' post='1496244' date='Apr 10 2008, 09:44 AM']I wouldn't say that God has feminine characteristics...I would say that females have characteristics like God's. I don't think it would be incorrect to say that men and women represent different aspects of God's nature. Men typically represent His authority and strength. Women typically represent His understanding and care. That's not to say that men cannot be wise and understanding, and women cannot have authority and strength. Indeed, men and women are called to imitate God in all virtue. But some characteristics are (typically) naturally in one gender and not in the other. So...I don't think anyone should refer to God as feminine. Masculinity and femininity were taken from His nature, not the other way around. Just like the family represents the Trinity...the Trinity doesn't represent a family. I hope I'm making sense.

Also, I do not think of God as both a Father and Mother, because Christ already gave us His own mother on the cross. She is the Queen of Heaven and Earth, and we flee to her maternal arms in our trials.[/quote]

that does make sense...hadn't thought of it that way actually. I like this line of thinking.


[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1496318' date='Apr 10 2008, 11:23 AM']God in His essence is beyond any form of intellectual conception, but He can be described ([i]not defined[/i]) by His energies ([i]energeiai[/i]), which come down to us, and which reveal His presence in the world (cf. St. Gregory of Nyssa, [i]Sixth Sermon on the Beatitudes[/i]). But the divine energies do not flow out from the divine essence; instead, they flow out from the three divine persons, and in the process they (i.e., the [i]energies[/i]) reveal God's tri-personal existence, while His nature remains utterly transcendent and beyond human thought, because God is [i]hyper-ousios[/i], [i]hyper-physis[/i], and [i]hyper-theos[/i] in essence.[/quote]

I'm not a theology student by any means....what does that translate as?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Lena' post='1496628' date='Apr 10 2008, 04:04 PM']I'm not a theology student by any means....what does that translate as? [/quote]
It means that the divine nature is beyond any kind of knowledge or participation, and so you cannot know [i][b]what[/b][/i] God is in essence. Nevertheless, you can experience the divine energies of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, which means that you can know – albeit in a limited sense – [i][b]that[/b][/i] God exists and [i][b]who[/b][/i] He is tri-personally (cf. St. Gregory of Nyssa, [i]Sixth Sermon on the Beatitudes[/i]).

Edited April 11, 2008 by Apotheoun

[Aloysius]

of course, in western theology we say we cannot fully know His nature and that our words are insufficient to truly describe it... and there are often traces and roots of this type of an apophatic understanding. when Aquinas had a vision of God he said all he had ever written was like heresy compared to the reality, and throughout the western tradition there is a sort of compatibility with the idea of not being able to know God's nature; and yet we still word it in many ways that the East finds unacceptable. the Eastern perspective is good to have here though, just bringing it up that there is a disagreement between East and West as to this concept.

[Adrestia]

[quote name='aquinasavio' post='1496244' date='Apr 10 2008, 08:44 AM']I wouldn't say that God has feminine characteristics...I would say that females have characteristics like God's. I don't think it would be incorrect to say that men and women represent different aspects of God's nature. Men typically represent His authority and strength. Women typically represent His understanding and care. That's not to say that men cannot be wise and understanding, and women cannot have authority and strength. Indeed, men and women are called to imitate God in all virtue. But some characteristics are (typically) naturally in one gender and not in the other. So...I don't think anyone should refer to God as feminine. Masculinity and femininity were taken from His nature, not the other way around. Just like the family represents the Trinity...the Trinity doesn't represent a family. I hope I'm making sense.

Also, I do not think of God as both a Father and Mother, because Christ already gave us His own mother on the cross. She is the Queen of Heaven and Earth, and we flee to her maternal arms in our trials.[/quote]


[b]"Masculinity and femininity were taken from His nature, not the other way around."[/b]

Here's my current thought on the issue:
Using a masculine pronoun for God does not limit God to human male characteristics. We do it because Christ did.

[Apotheoun]

The divine nature is unknowable:

"The Divine Nature, whatever It may be in Itself, surpasses every mental concept. For It is altogether inaccessible to reasoning and conjecture, nor has there been found any human faculty capable of perceiving the incomprehensible; for we cannot devise a means of understanding inconceivable things. Therefore, the great Apostle calls His ways [i]unsearchable[/i], meaning by this that the way that leads to knowledge of the Divine Essence is inaccessible to thought. That is to say, none of those who have passed through life before us has made known to the intelligence so much as a trace by which might be known what is above knowledge." [St. Gregory of Nyssa, [i]Sixth Sermon on the Beatitudes[/i]]

[Veridicus]

Haven't we already had this topic?

[Galloglasses]

This is an older topic then the God as gender nuetral Topic and it has been revived.

Also, interestingly on a TV show here, (The Weakest Link), one of the contestants got slagged off by the presenter by saying:

Presenter: "I'm sure Jesus wouldn't have wanted you to vote her off" (Referring to how, the minister I presume he is judging by the Jesus reference, had voted another person as the wekest link. The presenter makes fun of the contestants depending on profession, its part of her gig)

Minister: "Yes, I'd agree she'd would want everyone one to succeed, but..."

Presenter: "Oh! So Jesus is a she now?" (jokingly)

Minister: "...We could have a lengthy debate on the issue if you'd like"

Presenter: "Riiiight"

Me at home: "Haha, this show is great...... wait, what?"

Edited May 21, 2008 by Galloglasses

[HisChildForever]

A couple of years ago, at my brother's Confirmation, I recall the Bishop - during the opening prayers - say something along the lines of "May He, or She, bless us ...." etc. And he sort of emphasized the "She." I was taken aback but no one else seemed to mind it much.

I also had an experience where these two girls approached my friend and I - they asked if I was religious due to my crucifix - at the local mall, asking us if they could talk about God as "our Mother." My friend was real embarrassed so I only dealt with these girls for five minutes, and let me tell you, it was hard to shrug them off. They basically took random passages out of the Bible, completely out of context, telling me that God was female. For example, they took that Revelation passage about the woman and claimed it was God. And while I "argued" with them about it, they had these creepy smiles and kept nodding along and I know they weren't listening at all.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1536143' date='May 21 2008, 11:44 AM']A couple of years ago, at my brother's Confirmation, I recall the Bishop - during the opening prayers - say something along the lines of "May He, or She, bless us ...." etc. And he sort of emphasized the "She." I was taken aback but no one else seemed to mind it much.[/quote]


Sounds fishy to me.

[Altari]

Why does it matter?

I would argue that the use of a masculine to describe God came not necessarily from a relationship between God and believers, but from a male-led society. A woman could not be the figurehead, so it was only natural to refer to God in the masculine. However, that doesn't change the fact that no particular gender can be ascribed to him without putting God in a box.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Altari' post='1536152' date='May 21 2008, 11:59 AM']Why does it matter?

I would argue that the use of a masculine to describe God came not necessarily from a relationship between God and believers, but from a male-led society. A woman could not be the figurehead, so it was only natural to refer to God in the masculine. However, that doesn't change the fact that no particular gender can be ascribed to him without putting God in a box.[/quote]


Did you read what Apotheoun said?

[Galloglasses]

To think God only masculine because humanity said so, is to assume God was not willing to asert the truth of his Identity to mankind, neither back then, nor now, nor in the meantime.

Example: Jesus was only male because if He made Himself in the flesh of a woman His message would not be taken on. If this is true, then God would be deceitful about His true nature. And that His message was more important then Him. (I'm no theologian, but I'd say God is more important then His message)

It matters because Truth matters, and God is Truth.

Edited May 21, 2008 by Galloglasses

[Altari]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1536164' date='May 21 2008, 01:08 PM']Did you read what Apotheoun said?[/quote]
Do you often respond to statements with seemingly unrelated yes or no questions?

{yes, I did}