Free Speech

[iheartjp2]

For those of you who have facebook, check out this link:

[url="http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=6380955815"]http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=6380955815[/url]

After seeing this for the first time, I thought to myself, "Who in the world do these people think that they're fooling?"

We all know (or I hope we do) that the Bill of Rights guaruntees Americans the right to free speech and that I cherish this right along with many other Americans. I, however, pondered where the limit to this right may be when it comes to things like religion, morals, or philosophy, or if there is (or should be) a limit at all.

In today's society which has become less and less reserved and tame in its thought process, it's difficult to even express a valid viewpoint without "offending" someone (ex. The ACLU). There have been examples of disrespect of Christianity in the media for years since our country (really, our world) has become more and more hostile towards religions and, in particular, Christianity. Since a lot of this is happening in America, where the citizens have the right to free speech, can we really inhibit the speech of these people, even though it's offensive to Christianity? I honestly believe that once we start asking authorities in either facebook or the US Government to inhibit the criticism/insults of some, that they'll begin to get complaints from the other side and start inhibiting our speech as Christians (witnessing, expressing our faith).

This is something that was said to me by someone who was a member of the group when I made a statement in the counter-group (which you can find here:http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=19355827832):

[color="#0000FF"]the group isn't actually bashing jesus it's just making a statement that says we should be able to say whatever we want. there are tons of groups bashing a variety of things and the group is saying that religion shouldn't be excluded from this. stop putting religion above everything else[/color]

I responded with this:

[color="#FF0000"]Excuse you, sir, but just because you don't value religion, doesn't mean that the many who do appreciate your childish disrespect thereof. This juvenile view that you have should have nothing to do with people's religious views because they're something that actually MATTERS to a lot of people. Trampling on people's values with absolutely no rhetoric other than "I have the right to say whatever I want, oh, by the way, f*** Jesus", isn't a sophisticated or emulatable thing to do, and that's something that you haven't argued for at all.
Thinking that you can say whatever you want doesn't have anything to do with my religion OR my God, keep them out of it. Besides, if you want to pick on someone's religion, why don't you pick on someone else's? If your automatic response is that "Christianity has a long history of picking on others and other religions don't" (which isn't true), then why don't you just come out and say that you have a problem with Christians and don't really think of other religions when you feel like disrespecting a group of people for their beliefs?
I think that the ratio of those who value religion (especially Christianity, which your group so uneloquently DOES bash) to punks is quite disproportionate. If you really think you should have the right to say whatever you want, think about how we would function as a society (in the REAL world) if one did actually have said right and get back to me.[/color]

I think I handled that rather nicely. Anyone else's opinion is welcome.

[hoosieranna]

You did write a nice response. That said, they have the right to say most things that aren't actual slander. I need to qualify my statement by saying I don't have Facebook, so I can't see what the folks in that group are saying.

They have the right to say basically what they want. However, you have that same right. You exercised it eloquently with your response. The standard that I've heard is that as long as speech isn't slanderous or likely to cause actual harm (the "FIRE!" in a theater example) it's protected. Those who may know precisely are free to correct me.

[goldenchild17]

If I'm not mistaken (which I could be) in the US we have the right to say pretty much what we want as long as it doesn't infringe upon the rights of, or slander falsely, another person. We can disagree with them all we want, but are they allowed to voice their opinion? I think so.

If we begin to advocate the censorship of certain groups, then where does that take us in the end? We do not have a Catholic government, and I would argue not even an inherently Christian one. Why would they have any more reason to censor them instead of Catholics. If they did then censor such a group as this one, where does it stop? They would then have a precedent for censoring other groups, especially of any religious sentiment whatsoever. What would make Catholicism exempt from that censorship? If they censor one religious sentiment they would then have a legal basis to do so for other groups of other religious bases. As long as we do not have a Catholic government, and as long as we want to be able to practice our beliefs and whatever without hindrance we have to accept the same rights in other groups. Once one group loses such a privilege, any and all other groups of a similar interest (religion) would be prone to losing its privileges.

Edited April 6, 2008 by goldenchild17

[iheartjp2]

I'd also like to ask anyone who has a facebook to look at the terms of service and check the criteria for facebook being liable to shut down a group. ; )

Plain and simple, the only reason facebook made the provision for that is because they knew that they would get some smart-mouthed punks to pull some "free speech" croutons and disrespect people. It shouldn't be going on at all. If I wanted to make a group that bashed gays, it would be lucky to last a week. Christianity deserves the same respect if not more.

[goldenchild17]

I haven't looked at the group yet. Are they bashing Christians in particular, or the religion? There's a difference. One I think is protected under free speech while I don't think the latter is.

[goldenchild17]

This is all I can find on the facebook groups site when you go to start a new group:

"Note: groups that attack a specific person or group of people (e.g. racist, sexist, or other don't hate, appreciate groups) will not be tolerated. Creating such a group will result in immediate termination of your Facebook account."

So it would be important to see if they are actually attacking Christians or just stating their belief (i.e. Christianity is croutons or whatever, I haven't actually gotten on the group yet to see what it says). But the difference is important. If they are attacking any christian(s) then they should be reported and something (according to the site guidelines) will be done about it. If they are just stating their belief, with no personal attacks on anybody or any group of people, then I don't think there is anything one can do about it. Nor is there anything anybody SHOULD do about it, unless we want to expect similar sanctions for our beliefs that Catholicism is the ONLY true religion and everybody else is wrong. I'm sure a lot of people take offense to that, but we have a right to believe it. That's the beauty (and the beast) of living in this country.

[kujo]

They smell of elderberries...

...but they are well within their rights as Americans to say what they want SO LONG AS their speech does not incite some sort of violence against another person. It's the whole yelling "fire" in a crowded movie theater scenario. That person has the right to speak, but not when his/her speech infringes on the rights of others (in this case, not to get trampled-to-death in a mad-dash out of a movie theater).

Remember, there's nothing in the Constitution that says we have the right not to be offended. That goes for both sides, I do add.

[goldenchild17]

exactly...

[iheartjp2]

I think it's important to note that since Facebook actually included a section in their terms of service on what could get a group shut down is important. They're defaming the name of our God, it's not like they're just being silly or misguided, they're being outright blashphemous. I shudder to think of what's happened with the "f*** islam" group (yes, there is such a group of Facebook) if a few stupid political cartoons incited riots and destruction of property in Europe. Whenever a Christian speaks out in the media, they're either asked to apologize or defamed themselves, yet if someone disrespects Jews or gays, it's a hate (don't hate, appreciate) crime. It's time Christians demand the same respect anyone else gets.

[kujo]

[quote name='iheartjp2' post='1494741' date='Apr 8 2008, 01:26 AM']I think it's important to note that since Facebook actually included a section in their terms of service on what could get a group shut down is important. They're defaming the name of our God, it's not like they're just being silly or misguided, they're being outright blashphemous. I shudder to think of what's happened with the "f*** islam" group (yes, there is such a group of Facebook) if a few stupid political cartoons incited riots and destruction of property in Europe. Whenever a Christian speaks out in the media, they're either asked to apologize or defamed themselves, yet if someone disrespects Jews or gays, it's a hate (don't hate, appreciate) (don't hate (don't hate, appreciate), appreciate) crime. It's time Christians demand the same respect anyone else gets.[/quote]

Again, I agree in principle; however, no matter how blaphemous or offensive this group is to our beliefs, they are well within their rights to criticize, mock and defame Christianity. Freedom of speech goes both ways.

[goldenchild17]

The "f... Islam" group is still up and running: [url="http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=3533915614"]http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=3533915614[/url]

There is also one for Buddhism: [url="http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=10376166754"]http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=10376166754[/url]

Hinduism: [url="http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8469988266"]http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8469988266[/url]

Judaism: [url="http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=6043970993"]http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=6043970993[/url]

and athiesm: [url="http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=10237552353"]http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=10237552353[/url]

I haven't looked to see what other ones there are.

Point is, if they are attacking an ideology (as the one against atheism states they are) then they are not doing anything against the rules of this particular website or against the rules of free speech in general. If one of them goes to far and attacks people, then there is a problem. But as far as it stands, attacking an ideology is not off-limits in this country. This includes criticisms of Christianity.

[Deb]

At the bottom of that site page is the word "report." You can report the site and why you find it offensive. I suggested that if this is what they promote, then maybe a movement by all catholics and christians should be started to abandon facebook and let the world know why. It is not free speech, it is hate (don't hate, appreciate) speech.

[kujo]

[quote name='Deb' post='1494887' date='Apr 8 2008, 01:17 PM']At the bottom of that site page is the word "report." You can report the site and why you find it offensive. I suggested that if this is what they promote, then maybe a movement by all catholics and christians should be started to abandon facebook and let the world know why. It is not free speech, it is hate (don't hate, appreciate) (don't hate (don't hate, appreciate), appreciate) speech.[/quote]

I don't think that criticizing and insulting Christianity is necessarily "hate (don't hate, appreciate) speech." In my opinion, hate (don't hate, appreciate) speech is the sort of rhetoric that involves threats of violence.

[goldenchild17]

If you want to shut down those sites, then you should also advocate shutting down all Catholic sites which criticize the doctrines of other faiths. As far as I can tell, these facebook sites are not attacking anybody, they are attacking ideologies. There is nothing at all wrong with this. I will not join in such a crusade against a right that all Americans should be allowed to have, no matter how they decide to use it.

[son_of_angels]

I think the problem is that we are all subscribing to the idea of "freedom of speech." I don't buy this. You have the freedom to say the truth. Any tolerance of non-truth can only be allowed for the sake of promoting the truth. Other ideologies are not truth, therefore who cares whether or not they have freedom of speech.

This is where it is helpful to study Heidegger.