Racism In America

[cmotherofpirl]

We can start by assuring that every child has a chance at equal education. School district taxes should not be the source of funding districts unless all the money in the state is put tigether and divided equally. Anything else is a disgrace. You wouldn't need affirmative action if everyone had a fair start.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1493733' date='Apr 6 2008, 07:03 PM']We can start by assuring that every child has a chance at equal education. School district taxes should not be the source of funding districts unless all the money in the state is put tigether and divided equally. Anything else is a disgrace. You wouldn't need affirmative action if everyone had a fair start.[/quote]
Exactly! Even within school districts, though, there is great disparity. Schools in the inner city have very little funding for materials, and the teachers end up getting the school supplies because the students don't bring them. While those in the suburbs often (not always) have some money in the budget for supplies, but can also usually count on parents to have supplies and perhaps even volunteer in the classroom at times.

As for affirmative action, I feel that entrance into universities, or hiring practices, should be based on the merits of the person, their qualifications and abilities, not on gender or race. Which brings us back to the issue of inequality in the schools, which needs to be rectified so they all have the same access to this education.

[Autumn Dusk]

Affirmitave action also ignores the fact that many white people can come from rough situations or live in poverty.

For instance. If I was anything but white my college education would of been paid for several times over due to background, problems, and poverty. I worked two jobs while black, Indian, asain and Hispanic girls who came out of poverty enjoyed I-pods, stipends, and a free education including books. They actually made quite a more than me but were eligible for the programs simply on the basis of race.

Edited April 6, 2008 by Autumn Dusk

[Era Might]

I don't think the issue is just economics, but also how we see each other socially and culturally. For example, suppose a new Superman movie were made, and the actor chosen to play Superman were black. I don't think that would go unnoticed. The media image (movies, television, etc.) is largely white. If a movie has a mostly black cast, then I think it is seen as a black movie, and not just a movie. I think this is a significant influence on the perspective of many black Americans, which many white Americans do not fully understand. I don't think blatant racism is still common. However, I do think that there is still a lot of baggage with race.

As a white American, put yourself in the shoes of black Americans. If you turn on a sports game, the fans in the stands will be mostly white. Imagine that you lived in an American society where they were mostly black. And the movies and shows you watched were acted mostly by black people. And factor into that a deeply rooted history of racism against whites in that society. I think you would see race very differently. That doesn't mean that anything and everything you say or feel or do is right or correct. But I think white Americans need to see and understand where others are coming from. As I said, I do not think it is necessarily racism which prevents them from doing so. Rather, there is just a social and cultural gulf between white and black Americans, by which they experience society very differently.

From a Catholic perspective, I think the solution is to respect each other's point of view (being Catholic does not mean we have to see the world exactly the same way, but that our faith is greater than any one point of view); be honest with each other (including constructive and charitable criticism, when necessary); and live out the Gospel together (that includes fellowship, inside and outside the parish).

[Autumn Dusk]

See, though, I live in a very northern location. Its made up of blue-eyed blonde-haird people. I always wanted a doll with brown hair and brown eyes, so I can understand part of the "not having people look like you" in some respect.

However, I've also lived in places very polarized by ethnicity (see the thread on churches in open mike) where white people don't hate, appreciate other white people and discriminate against them more than they do a black or hispanic person. Italians discriminated against polish badly but often got along with black (who enjoyed the same restraunt spots as Italians) whereas polish people could be ignored at a massive rate and often not given a seat.

[Era Might]

I agree that race is not the only divisive characteristic. Xenophobia was also a serious problem in American history (and European immigrants were sometimes disliked because of their Catholic faith). But I think race is probably the biggest issue that America has had to overcome (largely because of slavery).

[kujo]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1493131' date='Apr 5 2008, 07:26 PM']my view is that i'm generally against affirmative action. i don't like reverse discrimination.

with that said, if there's a pattern of racism in a given area, then it can fly, as i believe o'conner said. this can be hard to prove, but that's life, and it's better i think empirally thinking that more whites will be benefitted by preventing reverse discrimination, if we have that presumption. racism in a particular situation can be hard to prove, but affirmative action would be beneficial if generally it's occuring.
when there's a pattern of discrimination, then the benefits outweight the few whites who get reverse discriminated against.

if the were to give points for having demonstrated a discriminated past, a few points, that's fine. or, if points are unconstiutional, then looking at it qualitatively instead. case by case basis is optimal.[/quote]

To be honest with you, I can barely understand what the heck you were saying in this posting, so I am going to focus on the part that drove me wild.

Reverse discrimination? What is this? Is it discrimination [i]against white people[/i]? I don't don't hate, appreciate, appreciate this term because it is premised on the presumption that only white people can be the perpetrators of racism.

[quote name='BeenaBobba' post='1493355' date='Apr 6 2008, 01:16 AM']Generally, I don't like the idea of affirmative action, but it's something I'm willing to tolerate until we can think of a better solution. The ideal is to live in a society where race is irrelevant, and honestly, I think that affirmative action works against that ideal by continuing to emphasize skin color. If I got a job based on the color of my skin, I'd feel offended, almost like I was being patronized. Minorities should be accepted to universities and awarded jobs because they're completely qualified. Skin color shouldn't be an issue at all. On the other hand, minorities still struggle against discrimation, and affirmative action does seem to help them secure jobs and such. All the same, I still think we should work on a better solution.[/quote]


[quote name='ChildoftheCreator' post='1493410' date='Apr 6 2008, 02:47 AM']Affirmative action really does seem to be a reversal of discrimination. There is still discrimination going on based on race as opposed to qualifications. Some of my classmates are able to get more awards and college scholarships based on their ethnic background. They may be in the same social class as me, but they still have more opportunities.

Perhaps I am blind to much of the racism because I am Caucasian, which I would not find hard to believe, but these are some of my pet peeves.[/quote]


[quote name='rkwright' post='1493561' date='Apr 6 2008, 01:00 PM']For all those people voting against affirmative action, what should we do to correct past wrongs?

My professor gave this example...

You have two men playing cards. They play many games over a long period of time, yet the white man keeps winning nearly every hand. At some time the players realize the deck is rigged to the white man's advantage. They both realize this is a problem and get a clean deck. But at this point the black man only has say $10 left while the white man has over $100.

Should we do anything to correct this inequality? Or just let them to continue to play with this new deck?[/quote]

Listen, let's call affirmative action (or, as I like to refer to it, "racism for liberals") what it really is: discrimination against whites and favoring of minorities. The aim is to achieve this racial harmony, but you cannot legislate equality. You cannot correct past wrongs. And trying to create system that tries to do so is a waste of time. But, we must realize that there would be no need for "affirmative action" if there was better education for minorities to begin with.

Applications to colleges should be considered by a person who has access only scores, extracurriculars, and intended major. No names, no high school names, no race, nothing. That way, the person sets a line of required scores and the people with those scores get in and those who don't do not.

[url="http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,301722,00.html"]Check out this article about a study going on in California about the effects of affirmative action.[/url] They say that it does not end up helping minorities who apply to and are accepted into law schools because of their race.

Edited April 6, 2008 by kujo

[Socrates]

I basically agree with Kujo here.

I voted "2," though the wording is somewhat ambiguous. I (at least from what I've seen) simply don't think that racism is a huge overwhelming problem in America right now, as liberals often make it out to be.
Of course "outward hatred" still exists among certain people, but this will always be the case. While I in no way condone racism, the fact is that today white racists are a fringe of a fringe, and are not taken seriously and are despised by everyone else. Racism no longer exists on any large institutionalized scale.
While racial hatred is wrong and despicable, it will not be stamped out by more laws and government programs, any more than they can stamp out sin and evil in general. In fact, more politically correct laws and unjust affirmative action programs will likely only fuel the flames of genuine racism.

I am totally against any kind of "affirmative action" in hiring, education, etc. These things should be based on merit, not racial background. Affirmative action is also demeaning to blacks and other minorities because it treats them as inferiors who cannot succeed without extra help from the white establishment. This is an insult to blacks who get ahead on their own merits.

I think affirmative action and various government social programs have had a negative impact on the black community, in white racism is constantly blamed for all their problems, and more government action or "reparations," rather than personal responsibility, are seen as the cure to all the black man's ills.
When black people speak out against this attitude and call for more responsibility on the part of the black community and families, etc., they are condemned by self-appointed "black leaders" like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, whose hustle is based on this "racism" game.
Untold damage has been done by the deterioration of the black family, which has been excacerbated by the welfare state.

Anyway I'm not condoning or trying to minimize the damage of real racism: I'm just pointing out that affirmative action and such is not the answer.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1493892' date='Apr 6 2008, 04:34 PM']I don't think the issue is just economics, but also how we see each other socially and culturally. For example, suppose a new Superman movie were made, and the actor chosen to play Superman were black. I don't think that would go unnoticed. The media image (movies, television, etc.) is largely white. If a movie has a mostly black cast, then I think it is seen as a black movie, and not just a movie. I think this is a significant influence on the perspective of many black Americans, which many white Americans do not fully understand. I don't think blatant racism is still common. However, I do think that there is still a lot of baggage with race.

As a white American, put yourself in the shoes of black Americans. If you turn on a sports game, the fans in the stands will be mostly white.[/quote]
However, if the game is basketball or football, the players will be mostly black, and most whites have no problem with this.

And Will Smith is the highest-paid man in Hollywood. Oprah is a huge media powerhouse.
And lots of white kids listen to and emulate black rappers.

I just honestly don't think you can claim the entertainment industry is still set up against blacks.

A black Superman movie would probably still create a stir, but largely because this character has been established as white for 70 years. An inexplicable change in the color of his suit from blue to red would likely create a similar stir. (And, yeah, these sorts of things are important to comic-book geeks). A movie based on a black superhero (like Wesley Snipes playing Blade) does not make an issue.

Not trying to start a fight here - just saying that I don't think your assessment is totally accurate.

[Socrates]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1493561' date='Apr 6 2008, 11:00 AM']For all those people voting against affirmative action, what should we do to correct past wrongs?

My professor gave this example...

You have two men playing cards. They play many games over a long period of time, yet the white man keeps winning nearly every hand. At some time the players realize the deck is rigged to the white man's advantage. They both realize this is a problem and get a clean deck. But at this point the black man only has say $10 left while the white man has over $100.

Should we do anything to correct this inequality? Or just let them to continue to play with this new deck?[/quote]
If a man has actually been hurt by past discrimination, then it may be fair to give him some compensation. However, it's simply unjust and impractical to compensate people for injustices commited to their ancestors by other's ancestors.

And forced redistribution of wealth is socialism, which is unjust and doesn't work, whatever the reason for it.
Should rich, successful blacks still get compensation?
Should poor, disadvantaged blacks be rewarded things not given to poor, disadvantaged whites?

Things will never be totally fair and equal, but such government action, however well-intentioned, creates more problems than it solves.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1493965' date='Apr 6 2008, 09:33 PM']However, if the game is basketball or football, the players will be mostly black, and most whites have no problem with this.[/quote]
I don't think this is comparable. There are a few players on the court, and thousands of fans in the stands. If anything, that highlights the disparity.

[quote name='Socrates' post='1493965' date='Apr 6 2008, 09:33 PM']And Will Smith is the highest-paid man in Hollywood. Oprah is a huge media powerhouse.
And lots of white kids listen to and emulate black rappers.[/quote]
One successful black actor doesn't change the fact that media image is largely white. Even when racism was blatantly accepted in America, there were still successful black artists.

The emulation of black rappers is an interesting issue in itself, because Hip Hop began with a strong emphasis on black identity and helping blacks. Hip Hop became heavily commercialized, arguably because of its acceptance by white Americans, and those original themes virtually disappeared (at least in the public face of Hip Hop). Of course, the artists who chose to make irresponsible music share the blame.

[quote name='Socrates' post='1493965' date='Apr 6 2008, 09:33 PM']I just honestly don't think you can claim the entertainment industry is still set up against blacks.[/quote]
I'm not sure what you mean by "set up against." My point was that a white media reinforces a white society. That affects how non-white people see that society. I think this is an even larger issue than just black and white Americans. Hollywood has an enormous influence on the world, so people in other countries are being shaped by American media. America is sort of a cultural empire right now. I don't think this is necessarily an issue of racism, but it is something that affects how we relate and see each other.

[quote]A black Superman movie would probably still create a stir, but largely because this character has been established as white for 70 years. An inexplicable change in the color of his suit from blue to red would likely create a similar stir. (And, yeah, these sorts of things are important to comic-book geeks). A movie based on a black superhero (like Wesley Snipes playing Blade) does not make an issue.[/quote]
But there is nothing about Superman that requires him to be white. If that were part of his character, then I would agree, but it has nothing to do with his character. If race were truly irrelevant in society, why would it matter? Anyway, he was just a random example. I think in general, it is rare for a movie to be lead by black actors (not just one or two), and if it is, it is likely going to be seen as a "black" movie, rather than just a movie. Suppose Superman were cast as a white man, but the rest of the characters in the movie were mostly black. I don't think that would go unnoticed, either. My point is just that race is so embedded in our society, that even if there is not blatant racism, I think we still have an underlying division between us, and we need to break down those barriers (through friendship, through dialogue, and most importantly, through the Gospel).

[quote]Not trying to start a fight here - just saying that I don't think your assessment is totally accurate.[/quote]
No problem. I have a particular interest in the cultural and historical aspect of race in America, especially in literature, so I enjoy discussing these kinds of topics.

[kujo]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1493977' date='Apr 6 2008, 11:14 PM']But there is nothing about Superman that requires him to be white. If that were part of his character, then I would agree, but it has nothing to do with his character. If race were truly irrelevant in society, why would it matter?[/quote]

He's white because the creator made him white. It's not intrisic to his character, it's just that he is white. The Green Lantern was black for awhile because the Green Lantern was not a superhero, just the possessor of the ring. But Superman is white because he was made white. There are black people on Krypton, but Superman is not black. If they casted him as a black guy, it would be just another political statement made by liberal Hollywood, much like the fact that the newest Superman movie had subtle homosexual themes between Clark Kent and Jimmy Olsen, and the fact that the actor who played Superman appeared a bit...soft.

[kujo]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1493967' date='Apr 6 2008, 10:41 PM']However, it's simply unjust and impractical to compensate people for injustices commited to their ancestors by other's ancestors.[/quote]

Plus, my ancestors didn't get here until the mid-1920s. They were poor Italian and Irish immigrants who could barely feed themselves much less own slaves. Why am I penalized for the actions of others?

[Autumn Dusk]

You want to talk media. Many producers are AFRAID of using black persons in there shows. Anyone ever watch Sinefeld? Which of those characters would of been accepted as black without a race riot? Jerry? The incredjulous and often depressive male? Elaine? the Kooky sex-driven female? Kramer? the oddball who dressed funny? George? The portly, also depressed, whiny male? What would of happened if the soup natzi was black?

Or even home improvement? If the characters of Lisa or Heidi were black they would be typified as silly sallies. If Wilson was a black then he'd be "evasive". Al being black? Forget it!

[Autumn Dusk]

And about Superman was written by a skinny little white boy who got picked on his whole life. That is why superman is white.

Will Smith has led many successful movies that aren't seen as black, and Eddie Murphy has a couple movies that aren't "black people movies" (he's done many more targeting the black market) Many black females have a whole host of fans.

Seriously, though, we have shows about people of all ethnicities. We have "George Lopaz" and "everybody hates chris" and a whole host of reality shows that have black stars.