The Question Of Age

[Stacey]

Hi, its interesting that this has come up now as i was thinking only thinking of the attitide to age today. Nunsense is right - it's very different in Europe - age is not often an issue, it really is down to the individual and both sides giving it a go. Our community has just finished a visitation and our visitor mentioned that the English Benedictine Congregation directs a 3 month course for formators which is held in Rome. He said that vocations seem to be older than in the past, and that they bring very different life experiences with them - good formation addresses this so age, strong characters, full life experience etc not a problem but can be an asset - think of the depth and range of skills 'older'vocations have. Formation may need to be different for different ages, it may need to be adaptable but it is possible to for us older people to enter and to stay.
Perhaps we were always called but chose to ignore the persistant little voice in the back of heads because we wanted other things, but if the niggle doesn't go away, then God hasn't given up on us. I had so many things i thought were obstacles in my way that i couldn't see how it was possible for me to enter anywhere - age included as i was 41 - so i prayed to Our Lady of Perpetual Succour. I asked that if i truly had a vocation to religious life that the door to a place would open in a way that i couldn't mistake, i let go of things, giving them into her care - admittedly with little hope - but it happened. the 'obstacles' seemed to be non-existant when i visited here and i entered very soon.

This life is challenging, it's hard work, it is constant, sometimes i ache for a day off to do as i please; or my taste buds crave something, or i miss my family or friends - but its also the best life for me and every little challenge met is a place where i have grown closer to God. So it really is worth it.
Nunsense - your posts are great, i cuddle with my weeble and wub them and agree with them wholeheartedly - i hope you too are finding your way and keep you in my prayers.

We do still have to have a full medical before entering but maybe our health care system does allow us not to worry about future health needs too soon. I am saddened that people are considered too old to give their lives to God in a society where medicine is advanced enabling us too live longer. Years ago a woman would have been old at 40 and it was more understandable but these days 40 really is not old and is often more beautiful.
Keep searching, you will find the right place - our Mother Abbess says we are never too old to cuddle with my weeble and wub and serve God - though on a practical level she would turn away an older candidate will health problems.

A last word would be - don't give up, trust that if God is calling you he knows where you should be too, your challenge is to be open enough to find it - that sounds a bit 'preachy' but it's not meant to be.
blessings and prayers, sr marie-therese, colwich.

Edited April 4, 2008 by Stacey

[Guest Perpetualove]

One thing I have wondered about, and Dame Agnes, you bring this up - and Gemma, did as well though it took your post for it to come clearly to my mind.

In receiving the emails and letters of welcome from the communities who are non-habited (including many contemplative/cloistered orders) as opposed to the lack of emails from the communities who are habited (and just to be fair, I will retake the test and lower my age to see what happens!) brings to me to question formation.

Do you think the communities that have retained the full formal traditional habit have also retained the full formal traditional style of formation? To clarify a bit further...women have changed radically since the 40's (a time period I am going to use just as an example). They are better educated, more independent and less focused on "finding a husband." The opportunities for financial (as well as emotional) independence are far greater and more acceptable than they once were. More careers are open to them (as opposed to the more traditional careers of the former time period of teaching, nursing, homemaking). The choices available to women today were unheard of previous to this time period. Add into the mix that we are living longer.

Do you think one of the reasons "older" women do not do well in certain monastic/contemplative/traditional settings is because the formation is geared for women who have little to none education and life experience? What a recent graduate from high school might accept as "part of communal life" an ex-nurse might object to! A former psychologist might think corporal punishment is unhealthy, while another, without the training, experience, etc., might think nothing of it. I am wondering if an "older" woman would be able to object and question the life in ways that a woman with less experience would not.

It seems that - for whatever reason - the non-habited/modified habited orders are more progressive in terms of secular education and society. As Gemma pointed out, they run the hospitals that provide the health care - as an example. With the modified/non-habited orders that are cloistered/contemplative, they have definitely changed "with the times." Nuns from these orders attend inter-community meetings, workshops, etc. Perhaps these nuns are more equipped to deal with women who have been independent and responsible for themselves (not to mention their families,children, job responsibilities, etc.).?

What do you think? Do you think the habit reflects the traditions/charism of the order and in turn, the actual formation the new member would encounter? Do you think that in addition to the health these cultures do not share the fascination with youth that the US does and wisdom/life experience is in general (on a secular level!) more valued there than it is here?

Just some additional thoughts. Obviously, I am not the only one interested in this, and I would cuddle with my weeble and wub to hear what you think, Dame Agnes.

Thanks again for all the great thoughts....Laudem, I especially loved your post!

Perpetualove

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Perpetualove' post='1492571' date='Apr 4 2008, 01:30 PM']Do you think one of the reasons "older" women do not do well in certain monastic/contemplative/traditional settings is because the formation is geared for women who have little to none education and life experience? What a recent graduate from high school might accept as "part of communal life" an ex-nurse might object to! A former psychologist might think corporal punishment is unhealthy, while another, without the training, experience, etc., might think nothing of it. I am wondering if an "older" woman would be able to object and question the life in ways that a woman with less experience would not.
...

What do you think? Do you think the habit reflects the traditions/charism of the order and in turn, the actual formation the new member would encounter? Do you think that in addition to the health these cultures do not share the fascination with youth that the US does and wisdom/life experience is in general (on a secular level!) more valued there than it is here?


Perpetualove[/quote]

That is a good point! The training offered at Wolverhampton was very much old style formation and when I questioned it (see my self-will), I was told that it is how they were instructed.

On the other hand, there might be communities that still wear the full habit who have moved into the 21st century in other areas - I think that is why discernment is so important. Not everything that has been carried over from the past has the same value.

[Gemma]

[quote name='DameAgnes' post='1492532' date='Apr 4 2008, 03:14 PM']I once talked to a woman who was a novice with the Cenacle Sisters (a lovely (non-habited) bunch of educated women with a great ministry of Ignatian retreat-giving who will soon disappear for lack of vocations). She had grown children and was doing alright in her formation until her daughter became pregnant. When I talked to her she was very torn between the order and wanting to be in her daughters life when the baby was born and to be "grandma" and be part of the child's life. She did eventually leave to be "grandma;" I don't know if the Cenacle has since decided against having mothers enter. Certainly it can be disappointing both for the discerner and the order when hopes are dashed.[/quote]

DameAgnes--the Cloisterites' "active" branch will be the Cenacle Religious of the Renewal:

[url="http://cloisters.tripod.com/cenacle/"]http://cloisters.tripod.com/cenacle/[/url]

Blessings,
Gemma

[DameAgnes]

Perpetualove that is a very interesting question, particularly when seen in light of, say, the situation of a discerner who is older, with grown children, but seeking what is really the most traditional of monastic experiences, including the most traditional formation.

As Nunsense pointed out (and it's part and parcel of the "that's the way we've always done it" mindset which can exist in any group, religious or secular), she was told "this is how we were instructed" and I would guess these communities would feel some justification for believing that the Holy Spirit, which had "seen to" the order for centuries, wishes them to continue in their respective vein; for them, such formation has "always worked" and they see no reason to deviate from the proven formula.

That does create a bit of a paradox for a "modern" woman who brings to the cloister both her 21st century sensibilities and her desire for the strictest traditionalism. The very thing she longs for and feels called to could, in the day-to-day living of it, make her wish to use all of her gifts of leadership and decisiveness, when those qualities are - in such old-fashioned formation - part of what will either be rooted out or greatly refined. It cannot be easy. Difficult enough, particularly in America, where everything is "fast" and "free" to fix oneself into an honorium of set times and duties, and the using of each spare ten minutes, but to at the same time also do the difficult work of surrender and self-abnegation and the control of self-will...quite a task.

I can therefore see how it might well be "easier" (that's not a value judgment as to "better" or "worse") for a later vocation - particularly if we're talking someone who has run a household, raised children or succeeded in a profession - to function in a monastery that has put at least a foot into the 21st Century. (I'm not talking about habited or not; frankly I wish all sisters would habit themselves just because so many of them look so dreadful most of the time and they should be relieved of the chore of figuring out what they're wearing or how to do their hair, but that's just my opinion) I know the Benedictine Nuns of Perpetual Adoration in Clyde, MO (not "habited" but sisters are free to use short veils if they choose - most find it hot and distracting - and upon profession they basically agree to stick to black and white in any combination, for life) allow even postulants and novices to practice their expertise with some with authoritative knowledge (strictly for the benefit of the community); as a sister there of 25 years told me - "we use the sister's gifts and she learns obedience and humility through that use and in other ways." It is frankly more "practical" than "romantic" and certainly utilitarian - but we live in a utilitarian age, and for some that might be precisely what they need and what God wants of them. For some women, that might well suit, especially since the enclosure is constitutional and not papal, so it allows a bit more "breathing room."

In the CheeseNun thread there is an interesting conversation about the Benedictines of Regina Laudis Abbey - primitive observance Benedictines who chant the Office in its full solemnity and in Latin, but they are not a papal enclosure. This is a very "traditional" monastery but it does have that "bigtoe in the 21st Century" with a website, state-of-the-art conservation/farming techniques, an extremely Benediction passion for education and more education, and a very individualist (also very Benedictine) idea of each nun being free to "be herself" within the community. It might be the sort of abbey perfect for a woman with traditionalist longings but modern sensibilities.

It is odd, isn't it, to consider that the religious life (and the church itself) managed to do very well for itself for all those years (with the help of the Holy Spirit and various "reformer" saints like Francis, St. Catherine and St. Teresa, of course) and that so much has become "complicated" just over the last 40 or so years - as though everything that came before was worthless and "change for change's sake" was suddenly, somehow "better." It is interesting to note that in our history the "reformers" have always been the ones who brought us back to basics and fundamentals.

So many of the posts on this thread have been very well-done, but Nunsense, yours have been especially exquisite and insightful. I am struck by one thing you wrote, of Catherine of Siena "living the life" of a Dominican at home, since she was never able to live in Community. The joke in my family - among my kids, friends and husbands - is that if my husband "goes first" (God forbid!) then I will likely "become a hermit" in some little house, wearing a makeshift habit so I don't have to deal with clothes shopping or my hair ever again. "You'll be the little hermit nun, chanting the psalms, who never leaves the house, opens the window to talk to visitors on the porch and has a rosary garden in the backyard."

It's "the joke." But sometimes I must admit, it sounds like exactly what I'll be doing - heck it almost sounds like what I'm doing now, except my "habit" is jeans and I do currently have to earn a living and interact with the world!

[the lords sheep]

I've found this thread incredibly fascinating, especially due to the very eloquent and very honest women who have been reflective. You are all right when you say that I, a 22 year old discerner, could never understand; in the same way that there are aspects of my discernment that you would have difficulty understanding.
But thank you for helping me to understand your struggles. I will hold you all in prayer this evening.

In Jesus and Mary,
Lauren

[AccountDeleted]

DameAgnes - it was PerpetualLove who mentioned St Catherine of Sienna - a Saint I really admire though! I think I will probably end up living the life of a hermit on my own too - if I can't "hear" God's voice a little louder. I have no complaints about the way things have worked out - God has been good to me, but there is always this ache to be closer. But since that longing is the only thing I have to offer to Him right now, I am learning to luv that pain just a little.

[DameAgnes]

Nunsense, thanks for correcting me; I guess I got confused on that part - it was perpetualove, you're right.

[TradMom]

Praised be Jesus Christ, now and forever! Alleluia!

Dear Perpetualove,

I am glad you brought up this topic (again). I agree with you on many fronts. I have experienced religious life through my sister's vocation (which was considered "late") as well as through my eldest daughter's (whom just entered another Monastery - please pray for her - that if it pleases God she will persevere!).

Like you, I do not believe the Church will be at peace as long as there is discrimination like this, and yes, I do believe the Church shares responsibility - even though it is individual communities who do the discriminating. When individual priests acted badly and abusively, the Church took the hit. When communities publish and distribute material within a particular diocese that includes blatant age discrimination, the Church holds responsibility for that as well. It is not a good example, it is not Christian, and certainly does not reflect well upon the Church as a whole.

I realize that discrimination is a tough word, but unfortunately, that is what is happening. As long as Vocation Mistresses disregard potential candidates based ONLY upon age (and nothing else!) that is discrimination. "Just because" a monastery had women who entered and then left at a certain age does mean that every woman past 35 will do the same. Unfortunately, many women, not appropriately schooled in the politics of religious life, see a pamphlet or a website that prints out the "age requirements" and don't seek further. I am sure all of us know someone who approached a religious community with an age cut-off and asked to be considered, and was.

Yes, Puella, individual communities can do whatever they want. If they hold a council meeting and decide they only want white, blonde, 20 to 25 year olds that have been home schooled, that is their business. But to publish and circulate those particular requirements, that would be an entirely different matter and I cannot imagine anybody affirming such a decision. That would be something that particular community should keep to themselves.

As for women believing that religious life is a "right," and your feeling tired of the bitterness, I think you have completely misunderstood the entire subject.

I believe what we hear, over and over again, are the voices and emotions of women who are frustrated and sad they are not recognized as worthy to live a life they feel called to live. They are not even given a chance and are rejected based solely on a number or an anecdotal experience that had nothing to do with them.

I can understand these feelings from a secular perspective. There was a time in our not so distant past when certain minority groups were considered "unworthy, incapable, not smart enough, etc." to vote. In my very neighborhood, there exists a beautiful country club that caters to specific people and rejects others - openly and brazenly - based on their skin color or religious faith. When my husband was invited to join, he said no, immediately, because he did not want to be a part of that system.

Does a minority member have a RIGHT to join that club? "Right" is a tricky word. This naturally begs the question...why would a minority WANT to join a club that so clearly doesn't want them? And finally, on this line of thinking, I wonder about Tiger Woods. Did (does) he have "the right" to play on golf courses that clearly don't think he should be there? Who can answer that question? I can say one thing, though - thank God that somewhere, when he and his father recognized that he had a natural talent/leaning towards the game, he did find a place that "allowed" him to learn the game.

I believe it would be much kinder and certainly more Christian were communities to open themselves up to the individual vocation as well the individual soul. A 23 year old college graduate with massive student loans and family problems is not more desirable than the 40 year old teacher with a paid-off house and a great retirement pension. Unfortunately, many communities, in allowing this practice of age discrimination, are throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

As many of you know, my sister went to England to enter monastic life. She was welcomed, encouraged and loved. She died a very holy death, after living a very holy life, and her example continues to remain an important part of my personal history. I have the read the various thoughts on why certain countries as well as communities don't have this same issue.

I do believe, like others on this thread, that the US has an unnatural obsession with the culture of youth. Unfortunately, this secular obsession has infilitrated the Church, and I believe many decisions are made out of cultural/social experience rather than out of global experience, knowledge or religious faith. Sadly, because this is an acceptable direction in many different places in our tabloid-obsessed, youth-centered American culture, it has become unnoticed in the Church. It certainly doesn't make it right. And when people speak up...they are accused of being "bitter," "un-feminine," or harboring regret that they "missed the boat."

When it came time for my daughter to enter religious life, she made a decision - just like her father did in regards to the country club - to be part of a system that lives out Christian values. This is her second try at monastic, cloistered life, and at some point, I will share the particulars with all of you. But in the meantime, as she discerned, she made it clear - with her spiritual director - that she would not enter a community that rejects women based on age.

The journal she kept during Lent had this motto on the front, and I think it speaks well of this subject. It is in the Capuchin Friar cave of bones in Italy...and calls us to remember our death and our fleeting mortality..."What you are, we once were...what we are, you will be..."

I encourage all the "younger" women to think about this as you discern with communities. How do you want to be received as you mature? Do you want to be thought of as a woman of wisdom and value? Or do you want to be told you missed the boat...too bad?

In closing, please pray for my daughter in her new home, and please pray for the other postulant who entered with her.

In His Name,
Tradmom

[praying4carmel]

[quote name='TradMom' post='1497325' date='Apr 11 2008, 06:10 PM']Praised be Jesus Christ, now and forever! Alleluia!



In closing, please pray for my daughter in her new home, and please pray for the other postulant who entered with her.

In His Name,
Tradmom[/quote]


Prayers of course!! Wonderful news!!

[cathoholic_anonymous]

Many prayers for your daughter, TradMom!

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='TradMom' post='1497325' date='Apr 11 2008, 02:10 PM']Praised be Jesus Christ, now and forever! Alleluia!

Dear Perpetualove,

I am glad you brought up this topic (again). I agree with you on many fronts. I have experienced religious life through my sister's vocation (which was considered "late") as well as through my eldest daughter's (whom just entered another Monastery - please pray for her - that if it pleases God she will persevere!).

Like you, I do not believe the Church will be at peace as long as there is discrimination like this, and yes, I do believe the Church shares responsibility - even though it is individual communities who do the discriminating. When individual priests acted badly and abusively, the Church took the hit. When communities publish and distribute material within a particular diocese that includes blatant age discrimination, the Church holds responsibility for that as well. It is not a good example, it is not Christian, and certainly does not reflect well upon the Church as a whole.

I realize that discrimination is a tough word, but unfortunately, that is what is happening. As long as Vocation Mistresses disregard potential candidates based ONLY upon age (and nothing else!) that is discrimination. "Just because" a monastery had women who entered and then left at a certain age does mean that every woman past 35 will do the same. Unfortunately, many women, not appropriately schooled in the politics of religious life, see a pamphlet or a website that prints out the "age requirements" and don't seek further. I am sure all of us know someone who approached a religious community with an age cut-off and asked to be considered, and was.

Yes, Puella, individual communities can do whatever they want. If they hold a council meeting and decide they only want white, blonde, 20 to 25 year olds that have been home schooled, that is their business. But to publish and circulate those particular requirements, that would be an entirely different matter and I cannot imagine anybody affirming such a decision. That would be something that particular community should keep to themselves.

As for women believing that religious life is a "right," and your feeling tired of the bitterness, I think you have completely misunderstood the entire subject.

I believe what we hear, over and over again, are the voices and emotions of women who are frustrated and sad they are not recognized as worthy to live a life they feel called to live. They are not even given a chance and are rejected based solely on a number or an anecdotal experience that had nothing to do with them.

I can understand these feelings from a secular perspective. There was a time in our not so distant past when certain minority groups were considered "unworthy, incapable, not smart enough, etc." to vote. In my very neighborhood, there exists a beautiful country club that caters to specific people and rejects others - openly and brazenly - based on their skin color or religious faith. When my husband was invited to join, he said no, immediately, because he did not want to be a part of that system.

Does a minority member have a RIGHT to join that club? "Right" is a tricky word. This naturally begs the question...why would a minority WANT to join a club that so clearly doesn't want them? And finally, on this line of thinking, I wonder about Tiger Woods. Did (does) he have "the right" to play on golf courses that clearly don't think he should be there? Who can answer that question? I can say one thing, though - thank God that somewhere, when he and his father recognized that he had a natural talent/leaning towards the game, he did find a place that "allowed" him to learn the game.

I believe it would be much kinder and certainly more Christian were communities to open themselves up to the individual vocation as well the individual soul. A 23 year old college graduate with massive student loans and family problems is not more desirable than the 40 year old teacher with a paid-off house and a great retirement pension. Unfortunately, many communities, in allowing this practice of age discrimination, are throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

As many of you know, my sister went to England to enter monastic life. She was welcomed, encouraged and loved. She died a very holy death, after living a very holy life, and her example continues to remain an important part of my personal history. I have the read the various thoughts on why certain countries as well as communities don't have this same issue.

I do believe, like others on this thread, that the US has an unnatural obsession with the culture of youth. Unfortunately, this secular obsession has infilitrated the Church, and I believe many decisions are made out of cultural/social experience rather than out of global experience, knowledge or religious faith. Sadly, because this is an acceptable direction in many different places in our tabloid-obsessed, youth-centered American culture, it has become unnoticed in the Church. It certainly doesn't make it right. And when people speak up...they are accused of being "bitter," "un-feminine," or harboring regret that they "missed the boat."

When it came time for my daughter to enter religious life, she made a decision - just like her father did in regards to the country club - to be part of a system that lives out Christian values. This is her second try at monastic, cloistered life, and at some point, I will share the particulars with all of you. But in the meantime, as she discerned, she made it clear - with her spiritual director - that she would not enter a community that rejects women based on age.

The journal she kept during Lent had this motto on the front, and I think it speaks well of this subject. It is in the Capuchin Friar cave of bones in Italy...and calls us to remember our death and our fleeting mortality..."What you are, we once were...what we are, you will be..."

I encourage all the "younger" women to think about this as you discern with communities. How do you want to be received as you mature? Do you want to be thought of as a woman of wisdom and value? Or do you want to be told you missed the boat...too bad?

In closing, please pray for my daughter in her new home, and please pray for the other postulant who entered with her.

In His Name,
Tradmom[/quote]

Such a wonderful post and as usual, I have to eat my words. I wasn't going to post this because I didn't want to criticise a priest, but after reading your post, I felt that my own experiences might (once again) help someone else who is facing the same thing.

As I posted before, I have tried really hard not to get into the whole age thing and just see it as God's way of making me work a little harder for (as you put it) "missing the boat" (not quite my words, but I see why you took it that way). But recently I have had another "slap in the face" from a priest (who, in my opinion, should know better because of his position), just like the time I spoke with the Father General of the Carmelite Order. Then, I was told that statistics proved that I wouldn't make it in religious life. So I told this new priest about Fr General's remark and he said that he had to agree with him! He told me he thought that basically I was too old to even be thinking of such a thing, and that I should start considering life as a privately consecrated secular person. Wow!

Once again, I was hurt to the quick and felt unwanted and unloved by God despite all my attempts to "offer it up" to Him. Oh well, I said, maybe He really doesn't want me after all, and I have just been wishful thinking - or perhaps I left it too late and He really isn't interested now. But then I started thinking about how Jesus said that the person who comes at the 11th hour would be paid the same wages as the person who came at the beginning of the day and I wondered how is it that some of our priests (especially those in higher authority) don't seem to remember this statement?

So, I decided not to take it personally, and to just be like St Paul, who must have felt a little inferior to the other Apostles for coming so late (and for not ever having met Jesus in person) and who was in conflict with them over issues about Jewish law from the beginning. I am sure he got discouraged sometimes, but he just knew in his heart that Jesus wanted him to do something, so he kept running the race. I won't give up trying to find God's will for me. I know in my heart that He wants me to belong to Him - I just haven't found out where I should be doing that or what I should be doing. My life is fine right now, and I could just live a holy life every day on my own. But if that is what God wants from me, then He has to take away this feeling that He is calling me to something else. As long as I have that in my heart, then I have to just keep trying - whatever happens.

I apologise if any of my posts have belittled others and what they have experienced with regard to age discrimination - I certainly didn't mean such a thing. It's easy to say "offer it up to God" and "Trust Him" etc, but the reality is that it does hurt inside to want to belong to Him and not to know how or where. Prayers for everyone discerning, always!

edited for typos

Edited April 11, 2008 by nunsense

[DameAgnes]

Dare I say it I don't think any of the posts on this thread have "belittled" anyone, Nunsense, and especially not yours. Happily, the thread has been well-written and well debated. It is entirely possible for decent people to have different ideas about things, and different insights and appreciations, and still treat each other like decent people. Refreshing, isn't it?

In the world, increasingly, people seem to think that everyone has to think just as "they" do, or the one with a differing view is a "bad" person. That gets a little tiresome; I don't think it has infected this thread at all.

TradMom, how good to hear about your daughter; I will keep her intentions (and the other postulant's) in my prayers.

[littlesister]

Great posts all. Thank you.

[alicemary]

I just find it so sad that there is this wonderful group of woman, committed to thier faith, looking for a faith filled community to live out the next 20-30 good years of their lives and all they get is slammed doors and remarks that are so uncalled for. So what if statistics are against us.....I have to feel that our thoughts have been placed there by Jesus Himself. Why would we desire this, to give up all our possessions, our successful careers to vow poverty, chastity and obedience?
Sure, I wish I were a blushing 20 year old, but that ain't going to happen. Heck, at 20 I was not ready to embrace a life of service to the Church. And to see all these orders seek out very young girls to me is alarming and not a good precedent.
But I hope, that soon we will all find the path we are meant to trod.