The Question Of Age

[Guest Perpetualove]

I know some of you might feel this subject has been done to death, and are tired of it, but since there does seem to be more of us over 25 popping up on this phorum, I thought I could start a new thread.

I recently took a vocation-match quiz on the internet and my email was immediately flooded with information from communities that are not in habits. Not one community answered that is in a habit, and I specifically asked for contemplative/monastic information.

Before going on....I want to say loudly and clearly that I do not have any negative feelings or objections or anything else like that about women in religious life who don't wear habits.

As I have also mentioned before, I have become friendly with some of the people on this phorum, and more than one of them find it a black and white issue (so to speak!) that their vocation includes the habit. They cannot IMAGINE for one minute living the life without the benefit of the habit, and all that entails. While I might be more open to religious life without the habit than they are, I am firm on one point.

I would not want to enter a community that has massacred their habit, because I personally find the traditional, full habit a gorgeous thing to behold! Either jump in and wear the whole thing - as originally intended - or not wear one! Personally (this is only my opinion!) if I end up in a community with a habit, I want it all --- the headpiece, the coif, the wimple, the LONG veil. I don't want a veil that slips and slides and shows half of my hair/head. That's just me, and interestingly enough, the women that I know who are looking into religious life seriously, feel the same way.

And here's where the age thing comes in.

Why is that the communities who don't wear habits "seem" to be so much MORE welcoming and inviting than those who don't? Why do I keep finding terms like "delayed vocation," or "belated vocation" ? Why is appropriate to list "age requirements" ? How is it appropriate to define when a vocation is belated or delayed? As Catholics - or more importantly - as Christians - don't we believe in the Holy Spirit? Don't we believe that our God is a God of mystery and magnificence? How can we, in our mortal state, begin to define when a vocation is delayed or appropriate? Who are we that we feel comfortable in telling someone else whether or not "they missed the boat," "should have acted earlier," "are too old?" or my personal favorite... "it's too hard for anybody over 30."

Our current Holy Father is OLD. He was ready for retirement, and yet, he was called by the Church, and GOD, to enter a new phase of ministry and life. He had the right to say no, and yet, he didn't. He said YES. Was/is he too old? I dare say his current life now has more challenges and difficulties than anything else he has ever done. I also imagine that any one of us would say..."Yes, but his life as a Priest, Bishop, Cardinal prepared him for this."

I keep reading posts and hearing stories (which started this whole new thread!) from women whom have been turned away because they are mothers. Why? How can that be? What could possibly be harder than motherhood? What part of staying up all night with a sick child and then having to go to work the next morning is easy? What mother who has a kid that missed curfew didn't pray with her whole body and soul for that child's safety? What mother who ever carried a child - either physically in pregnancy or in spirit through adoption - didn't act fully as a contemplative as she dreamt and prayed and hoped for the very best of the best for her child? What part of the experience of motherhood excludes a woman from entering religious life?

We have the very lives of saints to look at as proof that God calls at all times, at all ages, through all things. We wouldn't have an Augustine, a Rita, a Jane Frances, a Cornelia Connelly, and thousands more...you get the idea. I believe women wouldn't be responding, and searching, and TRYING to yes if they weren't being legitimately called.

One Novice Mistress has defended her Monastery's decision to enforce an age restriction based on the fact that they had women ("older") enter their Monastery and then leave. According to her, it was too hard on the community and too hard on the women. AND YET...we are told that the postulancy and the novitiate and temporary vows are all a part of discernment - and if we discover - once there (or the community discovers!) that we don't belong - all is well, and we are free to continue seeking the Lord's will. I have also heard the life is too hard, or that women think they are going to retire into religious life.

Aside from back breaking hard manual labor (which I have encountered in some communities; mostly farming), I believe any healthy (and that includes emotionally and mentally, too) woman can find an appropriate use for her gifts and talents. As for looking towards religious life for retirement...good grief! There is nothing that anybody could say to me about the trials and penances and other things involved in living religious life which sounds more inviting than a nice nursing home! And even then...don't we all want to do everything possible to avoid a nursing home? We are talking about giving EVERYTHING up to say YES to God...does that sound like a plan to be taken care of?! Only someone with the most limited understanding of what religious life entails would consider it as an option for retirement! (Nunsense...you have mentioned before that you have not found this in Europe - at least, I believe, in the UK - and you feel this has to do with the cost of medical care. I believe that is part of the constant stream of rejection, the fear of the expense of the cost of health care.)

Finally, I have one last comment/concern. In living in a society (United States) wherein everything revolves around the superficial aspects of life...money, looks, clothes, youth! - I believe (and I know now, very naively!) that religious life should reflect the more Christian values we profess to hold. From early childhood on, girls (I can't speak for boys) are told they are valuable as long as they are skinny, pretty, young, tempting, funny, etc. We see the ramifications of this system every day. And religious - with their counter-cultural values - their radical choice to wear an outfit that identifies them as Brides of Christ, their complete sacrifice of all personal belongings, their choice to live publicly as celibate, poor, obedient Daughters of the Church, end up reinforcing this very idea of a woman's value by rejecting her based SOLELY on her age. Or her past (as in motherhood).

Many of the communities who do this go directly against their own foundations and history. Mother Angelica's first postulant for her own community was her mother; a woman well over the restricted age and obviously, a mother. The Carmelites of the Sacred Heart in Los Angeles (Alhambra) was founded by a widow who was in her 60's! How is possible that we (as a Church) continue to deny women the opportunity to find holiness and fulfill their very vocation based on reasons that don't make sense?

I realize this is a problem that doesn't affect the majority of the people on this forum, and it is easy to skip this issue. And yet, ever since I first felt God's presence in my life, and the desire to know Him more deeply, I was disturbed by the little ending notation on the various vocational materials I received..."18-25" At that time, that was the age guidelines for the PCC's, which was the order I was most interested in. We cannot ever fully be at peace while one of our sisters is denied to be with Him whom her soul loveth.

We pray for unity, and for inclusion and for peace. We complain about the way that "some" sisters look and how they worship the earth, or practice bizarre spiritualities. And yet, these very women, the ones we complain about the loudest, are the ones who are living fully as Christ would have us live, they are the ones who are welcoming each person as Christ and seeing the value of the person; without regard to color, shape, size or age. They seem to believe in the authority of the Church; when someone says their marriage was annulled and they have the paperwork...they accept it without further question. And when someone says, "I made a mistake, I did whatever, but I worked it out, I confessed it, I am in full communion with the Church, and here is my Spiritual Director who got me this far"...they say welcome.

And remember St. Therese's letter to Father Maurice...when he knew she was dying, and he was scared that she would meet Christ first and she would then know of his sins, too numerous and shameful to mention? She wrote back to him a letter filled with the charity of Christ that only He can offer...and she told him that she would see him only as Christ did, with eyes filled an undying mercy and charity.

What do you say to your sisters, the women on this board, who are struggling with this issue? Do any of you have any thoughts or ideas on how we can work to undo such an injustice?

I know we all pray, so I will begin with that suggestion.

Perpetualove

[puellapaschalis]

I don't think "the Church" does this almost rejecting that you seem to accuse her of. Each Order and Congregation (and sometimes House) makes up their own mind as to age limits (or none) and I'm sure they have their own and good reasons for it.

I'm not sure that anyone has a right to a vocation and it seems really negative (to me) when I read posts by ladies who just seem to harp on and on about this "injustice". I'm not saying that's what they're actually doing (although they might be) - but it's how it comes across sometimes. It's quite disheartening.

Perhaps this isn't really the post of support and "YES!one!!" that people are expecting. But then I'm living a life which is so crazy busy with my thesis, my job, chaplaincy on top of trying to nurture a prayer life - and when I visit Phatmass there always seems to be something or other bordering on the whinging about age limit this and age limit that.

It's been brought up so many times, and so many replies have been made with "Have you spoken to these sisters?" - you'd be forgiven for thinking that the orders [i]with[/i] age limits were actually in the minority.

My two €00,02, which at the current rate of exchange is a bit more than anyone else's here, but it's not like that makes much of a difference anyway. I'm off for Rosary and bed.

[stlmom]

Hi Perpetualove,
Just a thought about the response you got on the vocations match quiz--my guess is that few contemplative or monastic communities would bother to be part of that system of contacting potential vocations, so your contacts would be somewhat skewed. I think you'd have more luck just going through a vocations directory like Deo Est Gloria and checking out the available webpages, and go from there. God bless your search!

[Autumn Dusk]

there are the Parish Visitors of Mary Immaculate, and they wear a habit, and the daughter's of st paul and the CFR's. They are all amazing and have a great mix of community and prayer.

[Chiquitunga]

Yeah, this can be really hard for a lot of people ..

I do know the [url="http://www.stjean.com/"]Community of St. John[/url] is very open to all people who feel they might have a call to them, regardless of age. One contemplative sister I spoke with at Princeville said they do not say a vocation is better if the candidate is younger. She said they're receiving women from all different stages of life: from a few right out of high school, to women who have been working in the world for many years. She said it's whomever the Holy Spirit calls. I have a friend who was in her 40's when she entered there, who had been searching for a long time. She is fully professed now, and has been prioress of the convent in Laredo, TX (I believe she's in France now) and is very happy.

Also, I know the [url="http://carmelitenunsstjoseph.org/monastery.htm"]Discalced Carmelite Nuns in Dallas[/url], who are very traditional, are open to older women. Yeah, I would agree with stlmom in that a lot of the more traditional communities wouldn't show up on vocation quiz results as much and everything. But still, it's definitely true that a lot of them aren't as open to older women.

Here's a neat article on a sister at the Carmel in Des Plaines, [url="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/03/27/MNG3FBUG9E1.DTL"][i]From High Society to a Higher Calling[/i][/url]

[AccountDeleted]

I don't know if what I am going to say sounds helpful or not but I am going to say it anyway just because I have been through some of what you are talking about and have also thought a lot about this.

First, forget about the online matching service - it is limited by so many factors and is only a guide - not an authority. If it helped at all - good - but otherwise, don't worry about it. There are many ways to locate and contact communities and not all of these ways are online (shock shock!)

Second, there are a lot of communities who will consider delayed or older vocations, but they consider each person on an individual basis so their guidelines might state a particular age limit, but when approached, their response is guided by the Holy Spirit.

And finally, a vocation is a gift from God, so it is His responsibility to find the community for you! Your responsibility is to say "yes" and then to do whatever you can to stay out of His way - through prayer and trust and patience. Sure, do the discerning, but don't start letting worry take over your thoughts. Ask Him to guide you to the place where He wants you. He knows what you want (habits, traditions etc) and He knows what He wants (which we don't always know) -- and He knows what is best for your soul, which is His main concern anyway! Trust Him. Luv Him. Let Him guide you.

I saw a bumper sticker today that said "Nothing is impossible for God." Believe it.

You are in my prayers. God bless you.

[alicemary]

It is very hard for anyone over the age of 40, sometimes the age limit is 30, to find a convent who is interested in them. They turn down some wonderful woman who have worked for years, just because they reach a certain age, makes no sense to me. The more traditional, the longer the habit, the earlier they want girls, and I do mean girls to enter.
Men seem to be accepted to the seminary at most any age and whether they have been married or not, or are fathers. Woman seem to have a much harder time even have anyone correspond with them, much less enter.
The congrations that don't wear a habit seem more willing to work with woman. Are accepting of their situations. I am not sure why, but what you have obseved is very true.

[Laudem Gloriae]

I agree with perpetualove. I too took that vocational test just to see what it said and it came back just like perpetualove's! But I did notice that the groups mentioned in this site were mostly active, habitless or modified habit and I couldn't find one order I'd be interested in. They obviously only send you the info on orders that are signed up on their site or registry or whatever.

Over my 14 yrs, I had written to orders even though they give a stated age limit and some came back with they would go over their limit if they felt a woman had a vocation but this was fairly rare. I know the PCCs in Cleveland where I had visited twice and am still writing (http://www.poorclarecolettines-cleveland.org/) has a limit to 45 and will consider older if the woman has a real vocation. They recently had a few older women (over 40) that have received the habit there.

But I think the problem with most orders is that they lump the older woman who was married/divorced/annulled into one group. It's like because they happen to have had a few women in this category that didn't work out all of a sudden ALL women in this category are the same. As for being not strong enough, as perpetualove said, what could be harder than (like me in this example), a single mom since the kids they were 3 and 1.5 yrs old, work as a nurse 8/10/12 hr shifts, come home do all the house work, yard work, homework, no sleep if sick kid, work double shifts and the hardest is being on your feet 8/10/12 hrs straight and having major stress from your job, patients, their families idiotic adminstration, dealing with other lazy nurses or nurse's aids, etc.

Then some orders say that older women are more set in their ways and used to doing what they want! I can only laugh at that! What mom is able to do that? We give up our all for our kids, husband, job, etc. - yes voluntarily and with cuddle with my weeble and wub - but how often is the woman's plight of taking time for others but never yourself? All the time. And add nursing to that and your are a caretaker 24/7 and NOT for yourself. Women like this already KNOW how to be selfless, give their all, be obedient, take authority, do what they don't like or think is silly or useless, often be worked to death, put others before them.

So giving up yourself and thinking for others comes almost naturally. Being under obedience is what alot of people do - especially the older woman/mom - their whole lives here in the world. Practically all day long at work I don't want to do what I am asked - usually because it is double work, unnecessary or a job another should have done the previous shift or work an aide should have done but he nurse or another aide will have to do because of another's failing. Then there's and another round of "obedient" things when you get home. And etc., etc.!

There are many, many orders in the UK, Ireland and Australia who have NO age limits and know God calls people at any age and from any circumstance. There should be no difference between orders in the US and Europe/AUS. Mother Prioresses and Abbesses that I have talked to in these countries see and prefer older woman because of their life experience, have been under obedience to parents, employers, husbands, kids, etc. They come knowing and having experienced things that are helpful in religious life and maybe unless they sat on a chaise lounge and were fed grapes and were rich, the average woman has had a hard life with physical and emotional challenges.

I recently was in contact with a Carmel who was very interested in me (age wasn't a problem) but the minute the hear I was married it was a no. They said they had a few previously married women who couldn't do it. So because THEY couldn't I can't? Maybe these women were rebounding from a bad marriage or divorce and carried baggage with them? I know some friends who still pine for their Xs and/or have much unresolved anger at them and have a bad self image, etc. so this would cause problems and certainly added to maybe they had NO vocation to start? Everyone is different and though 5 women who have the same backgrounds and leave a monastery doesn't mean the next 5 wouldn't stay, succeed and be the next church's saints!

I can see an order saying know when they have a full novitiate full of young ones - have come across that. But orders down to 4, 6, 10 and they are all old! What could it hurt, unless they are too old to form new postulants? But for orders to just say no because they think ALL women over a certain age or all women who have been married or have grown, independent children are the same and "just can't cut it" is ridiculous and not fair.

For a US woman to have to look abroad to enter an order God is calling them too is sad. I have had to do this myself. Religious life is hard no doubt, but so is life in general. It's just a different life. I have some religious in my family and have a very good idea - as much as I can without actually being in an order.

As perpetualove said, that is what the postulancy, novitiate, temp vows are about - seeing if the woman has a vocation and a vocation to the order/monastery she is in. I know many young ones personally and heard examples from prioresses and abbesses any the religious in my family that just as many young ones (under 30, never been married, no kids, etc.) leave orders just about as often as older women do. I have a friend who entered the Hawthorne Dominicans and they told her the life and work was very hard. Well as a nurse and older woman she told me she worked much harder in the world as a nurse and running her own house!

It just boils down to orders should try to take each woman individually and separately and not compare the inquiring older woman to previous older women they had. Do they compare a 22 yr old with the other 2, 5, 10 other younger woman who entered and left? No they don't.

And the orders who will take older but never been married - are they hoping to fill their monastery will all virgins?! What difference should that make if they have the annullment from the church? Where would the Hawthorne Dominicans be if Rose Hawthorne Lathrop was denied taking the habit and starting her order? She was married, separated (til her husband died) and she also had a child that died when he was 2 or 3. There are just too many blesseds and saints in all the orders - Carmelites, Franciscans, etc. that were married, had kids, etc.

I do expect to have many trials when I enter - from physical, mental, emotional, lack of sleep, less food or food I wouldn't normally eat, etc. but how does an order know who will persevere if they don't accept only what they deem the perfect candidate - especially when these same candidates often leave also?!!

Ok, so I went on along time, but perpetualove has written much better than have on the subject and unless you are in our shoes, with our background, no one can really know, experience or have any reason otherwise.

God gives the grace when he gives the vocation, a real vocation. God calls all ages and from all backgrounds. If God accepts you, how can an order not? Are they wiser than God? Do they know better than God? I think not.

[AccountDeleted]

Ok - while I understand and agree with so much of what has been said, I do have to point out the difference between the US and other countries, and perhaps shed some light on why England or Australia or Ireland don't worry about age as much. I know it has been said before, but these countries have government subsidised medical care! In the US, the convents are worried that they will admit an older woman and then end up going into debt trying to pay for her medical care. Some communities insist that the woman carry her own personal health insurance at least up until profession, but some of them just don't want to have to worry about this. And let's face it, the older a person gets, the more likely it is that they will need medical care at some stage.

I don't blame communities for this attitude, but it is nice when some of them are prepared to look at individuals instead of blanketing all older women as unsuitable.

The whole "virgin" vs married thing is another issue, and I don't really know how to address this one. I have been married (and annuled) and have an adopted daughter who is now an adult, so I have been on the end of this prejudice as well. This one is less defensible in my opinion than the age one but I won't get into it here because I am not knowledgeable enough about why communities insist on this.

All I can say is that despite the odds being stacked against older (and/or previously married) women, there are communities out there who will consider them, and if God wants someone - then nothing is going to stop that person from entering. It all comes back to faith, faith and then more faith.

I still remember that the Father General of the Carmelites told me that I would fail because statistics proved that older women didn't make it! He was right in a way - since I did leave. But the way I look at it ... one in every two marriages in the US ends in divorce. That means that one in every two marriages doesn't end in divorce! The statistics may prove that older women can't make it in religious life, but whatever the percentage is - some of them DO make it! That means that God hasn't given up on us yet. As long as we keep saying "yes" to Him, He will keep asking, and keep giving us the grace to try and (hopefully) to persevere, even if we need a ltitle extra help or extra time or even "do-overs". Hope is an amazing thing - it never dies.

[Gemma]

Okay, I'm going to state my tuppence worth, and everyone can take it for what it's worth. I can speak as a former discerner, and as an aspiring founder, both.

I was young enough as a discerner that nobody had any problems with my age, so I can't speak to this particular issue from that vantage point.

HOWEVER, as an aspiring foundress, and from my nearly 20 years of vocations work, I can honestly say that the MAJORITY of older, "delayed" vocations, have valuable experience in the area of LIFE. The younger vocations have great faith, and the two help each other grow closer to their Divine Spouse.

My inspirations have said constantly that I am not to put an age limit on these proposed charisms. The only limit that I impose is that which is given by Canon Law, which is 17.

What I hope to see with the Cloisterites, whether they be 17 or 71, is a community full of reparative compassion for Jesus and Mary, for the world, and each other, and everyone growing in humility as their spirituality deepens. Their charity for each other, whether they be 18 or 81, should be mutual. The younger ones should hold their elders in great esteem, respecting their life experience, and the older ones should not lord their age over the younger ones, but have great charity during times of exposed ignorance on the part of the youth. The elders have a greater responsibility, though, since because of their life experience, they are to be examples of charity to the youth of the community.

In some cases, the potential vocation being run off is pursuant to St. Benedict's rule when he states that the inquirers should be run off to test the validity of the vocation. If they keep coming back, then they likely have a vocation to that particular community.

Many of the "delayed" vocations who come to me are overly anxious about entering somewhere. Once I let them know that they're an OK person, and they can come spend some time with us at Cloister Outreach, they usually let go of the chips on their shoulders, and get relaxed enough to listen to the whisperings of the Holy Ghost. A majority find that their vocation is not with us, but that's what we're here for first and foremost--for other communities and their discerners, which includes emerging communities.

I haven't really heard any reasons why the older vocations are discouraged. But I was told by a Carmelite prioress that the older vocations to her particular community never persevered, unless they had previous convent experience or were exceptionally graced. These women being within the confines of the cloister were actually a traumatic experience for the community--which is saying something.

This makes me keep my eyes open to such things happening, but doesn't rule out the possibility of me letting go and letting God, and the woman growing in spirituality. If you can take "correction" of a certain type, you'll be called to a particular community. If you can't, then another community would be more suited.

I've found that the biggest problem is the communication of formation--how well the novice mistress "instructs" novitiate sisters. Those who "get in someone's face" regarding their faults will, of course, receive a likewise reaction. I agree with St. Jane Frances de Chantal when she tells her superiors to discuss the faults seen in a more general assembly of the sisters. She always instructs her superiors to be gentle, as such is the way of the Visitation.

What do we want when we're ill? Compassion? Or someone blaming us for being sick? I would think it would be compassion--someone tending to all our issues with compassion, and sweet advice for avoiding future recurrences. Would it not?

As for the unhabited orders accepting older women--there are probably many reasons for that. The older women are still part of the radical feminism of the 1960s, and would be more adaptable. The unhabited orders also own a majority of the religious hospitals, and have healthcare at their fingertips quite literally. The monasteries don't have that.

As I said, my tuppence worth, FWIW.

Blessings,
Gemma

[shortnun]

I'm very much enjoying this conversation to see different sides of this story--from the discerner, from the wife/mom, and views from different sides of the Atlantic. Clearly the reality is this: our loving God calls us to be with HIM and does not stop at age! Isn't our God GOOD?!

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1492173' date='Apr 3 2008, 06:05 PM']My two €00,02, which at the current rate of exchange is a bit more than anyone else's here, but it's not like that makes much of a difference anyway.[/quote]

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='shortnun' post='1492454' date='Apr 4 2008, 07:44 AM'] I'm very much enjoying this conversation to see different sides of this story--from the discerner, from the wife/mom, and views from different sides of the Atlantic. Clearly the reality is this: our loving God calls us to be with HIM and does not stop at age! Isn't our God GOOD?!
[/quote]

Ah, yes, now that is the point, isn't it? (I would put in a luv emoticon here but the word substitution program will just mess it up). All is in His hands and He does care so much!

[Guest Perpetualove]

I would like to thank you all for responding; as I said in my original post, I know many people are tired of this subject, and hopefully, those who are will just pass by. I also know that my original was long; and some of what I said was glanced over.

In reading your excellent responses and having more time to think about this, let me clarify a few points...

I started this thread - not out of a desire to be a whiner or negative, but because in another thread, Laudem spoke (and not in a negative way, I might add!) about not being welcomed - or even considered/interviewed, etc. - because she had grown, independent children and a particular Monastery won't consider women with her background.

While it has been said, over and over again, by a few people, this subject has been done to death, obviously it hasn't. There are still women amongst us who are struggling with this issue. For a while on this board, everytime the subject would come up, someone would post about being "tired of this subject" and that would be that. Subject closed. Please...if you are tired of this...and I can imagine some of you are because it doesn't pertain to you...just go to the next thread! I was hoping to see if anybody had valuable advice - like stlmom. (You are right, stlmom. I am sure Laudem and I took the same quiz, and the website you suggested I have not seen before. Thank you.)

I am not quite in the position that Laudem is in, and I have found my path easier. But...when I read that she has been turned away for something beyond her control, I was saddened. I have witnessed many other women who have been turned away for similiar, if not identical reasons. I said - regarding myself - that I am open to life without a habit, and it is not a deal breaker for me. For others, like Laudem, that is not the case. I would like to support Laudem - and others (look how many people have read this thread and NOT responded? who knows what the "lurkers" are going through?) who are experiencing this same struggle. That was my intention...not to whine and complain about injustices!

I pointed out two communities who are very public and vocal about the requirements for entrance. Not only is their vocational paperwork printed with this information, their website also includes it. Both communities were founded by older women (albiet one was a transfer nun) and are thriving. I have a hard time with their restrictions, when clearly, they would have rejected their own foundress (or in one case - the first postulant!).

As for someone having a "right" to a vocation...that is a deep question which I'm not sure any of us can answer here. Obviously, if someone feels called to live a particular life, within the context of a specific spirituality, and they are consistently rejected or thrown road-blocks, then I would tend to believe that God has other plans for them...unless, you are someone like St. Catherine of Siena, usually depicted in the Dominican habit she wore, a layperson (Third-Order). She was unable to live the life of a Dominican Nun and yet, she found a way to do it. Or...if you are an American woman with a deceased husband and a grown child and you move to England to join the Carmelites. I have no doubt the case can made that the Holy Spirit had this in mind all along and it was just a very complicated path to reach the right place.

I'm not sure what to say about this. I'm sure full-blown crazies have presented themselves to a religious institution, determined to be let in, and for the sake of the community, were gently lead away. I understand the core community of any congregation must be protected. Rejecting someone based on a concrete difficulty or problem...something that would cause strain, stress or negativity to the present community is expected. But to reject - sight unseen - based on age? family situation? I find that very difficult to explain away.

However, what we are finding out is that this is a problem particular to the United States. It seems completely bizarre to me that Laudem (and Nunsense, and Tradmom's sister), found the situation in Australia, the UK and Ireland completely different. I have a friend (American) who is in Germany's beautiful Abbey of St. Hildegard. While I can't speak for the Germans, and this is the only contemplative house I know there, I know they are open to women of all ages/backgrounds and wear the full, traditional habit....but one would need to speak Germany fluently!

I cannot be the only one on this board who finds the difference in attitude completely mind-boggling. And I cannot believe that I am the only one that is very sad to think "our" vocations are leaving "our" home to a foreign country where they will find the life their soul desires.

Yes, Nunsense, I think your points regarding medical care ring very true. However...many "traditional" communities are given free health care by the "progressive" sisters who own the hospitals. In my diocese, this is the case. And, as many of you know, the problem with the elderly religious in this country is out of control - period. Traditional, progressive, whatever you want to call the orders...they are all (save a very few who were very blessed with large fortunes and made wise investments - the RSCJ's to name one) in very bad shape for their financial future as they continue to move into old age.

Lastly, Gemma, what you wrote has also been my experience. I have heard more than one Prioress/Abbess repeat what you said. Thank you for working so hard to make religious life available to women in this country, it is very heart warming to read of your desires and support.

Perpetualove

[DameAgnes]

A very interesting thread - lots of good stuff here. I agree with Nunsense that discernment is about both what a discerner has in mind and what God has in mind, and I think it is also very true that a lot of US orders do not take older vocations for the simple reason that medical considerations could bankrupt the house.

Of course, a sister can get sick at any age, but I know as I push 50 that I am not as robustly healthy as I was at 30 or 40 - I may need a knee replacement, etc. I think a monastery - particularly if it is an autonomous house as most are - certainly has the right to prayerfully discern whether or not their community can support both "declining years" and the possible monetary and physical strain it could put on a small house. In that case, the socialized medicine programs of UK, Canada, France, etc, do make a difference.

But I believe there is another consideration for the "never married" exclusion beyond virginity or the "attachment to ex's" that some suggest. I have been working on a long-term project concerning vocations and talking to many communities and from them I've gleaned two things on that issue. First, some communities have told me that they don't mind "previously married" women but those who do have such an exclusion have come to the conclusion that a woman who has run a household on her own tends to have difficulty "giving up" the notion that she knows what needs doing, or waiting for a superior or the community as a whole to take action that to her seems "obvious." They feel she has a harder time subduing her will and that "with the best of intentions" and meaning no harm, she ends up causing disruption.

Now, DON'T jump down my throat for that; I'm just telling you what I was told, and on one hand I can believe it, because "communities" (whether they are religious or just ministries in a church, or even your local PTA) tend to fall into a "that's the way we've always done it" mindset, and they end up not taking kindly to someone coming in with "new" ideas.

Allow me to say that I would have absolutely NO PROBLEM with shutting up and doing what I am told in a community because I'd be perfectly content to relinquish some responsibility in my life! :-) But I could see how someone like - (for instance) my bossy best friend - would never be able to resist "putting things to rights," as she sees fit. It takes all kinds to make a community, but I'd guess that a younger woman with less life experience is more "malleable" and easier to form into what the community wants of its sisters, as a whole.

The other reason I have often found for the exclusion is that very often "married" means an attachment to children, even adult grown children, and while some orders don't mind that, I know some orders which once accepted mothers of grown children have since decided that it does not work for them, usually because the mother - though totally sincere - simply cannot leave her motherhood behind and detach to the degree necessary. I know the Sisters of Life initially allowed mothers and since has decided, "no," that doesn't work for them.

I once talked to a woman who was a novice with the Cenacle Sisters (a lovely (non-habited) bunch of educated women with a great ministry of Ignatian retreat-giving who will soon disappear for lack of vocations). She had grown children and was doing alright in her formation until her daughter became pregnant. When I talked to her she was very torn between the order and wanting to be in her daughters life when the baby was born and to be "grandma" and be part of the child's life. She did eventually leave to be "grandma;" I don't know if the Cenacle has since decided against having mothers enter. Certainly it can be disappointing both for the discerner and the order when hopes are dashed.

I know some will say, "but lots of fathers become priests." Can't answer it - I'm not a man - except to say that a man whose daughter is pregnant might be more easily satisfied with a "once in a while" relationship with the grandkid than a mom might be. Perhaps.

Edited April 4, 2008 by DameAgnes

[AccountDeleted]

There have been some really thoughtful posts on this topic. What I am going to say is probably not going to be very popular so, before anyone reacts to it - please remember that I myself am one of those who is affected by the limits of age and/or marriage and children, etc, so I am not being heartless when I post - just stating things how I see them at this time.

Before I entered Carmel, I had all the same arguments that seem to be posted here, and I thought that communities were being unduly strict in their requirements, and that they judged older women too harshly - or were just uncharitable or not loving enough!

First, there are all the issues of older women, their strong wills, set in their ways, family ties etc... which we want to negate and pretend don't exist. But they do - in fact. These things aren't just a prejudice designed to keep older women out - they are facts of life that have been experienced in community after community. Those who say that they don't exist, probably haven't ever lived religious life yet - and faced the reality of self-will vs religious obedience in [u]all [/u]things. Sure, Moms have to be at the beck and call of their children and family, but we are not talking about the surrender of selfish desires here, which most mother's can do quite well. We are talking about the total surrender of self-will that is much harder for any person who has lived in the world and had any level of responsibility. Does that mean it is impossible? No, but it IS harder. It is almost impossible to describe what religious obedience is like except to say - that it is harder than it appears to those who are not living it. It has a grace all its own, but that doesn't make the sacrifice any less. And in my opinion (as an old lady) it is harder for us than it is for the young people who have only recently been under obedience to their parents. Yes, we have the maturity, but we don't have the flexibility of will that they have.

Ok, let's take a giant step backwards now, because all these practical issues are missing the real point anyway, and can be debated endlessly.

So God calls. He asks us if we want to serve Him as a religious. He might have started doing this a long time ago. And we think about it - maybe for a long time. But for one reason or another, whether it be fears or doubts or desires or whatever, we put Him off! And the years pass, and He still invites us, but now we have responsibilities that we must fulfill, so we have to keep putting Him off. Sometimes we think about it, sometimes not, but it is like a little nagging voice somewhere inside us.

But then one day we turn around, having done everything we wanted or felt we had to do, and we discover that the voice is still calling and that He is just as welcoming as ever, so we think "Hey, I have always wanted to be a religious - so now that I don't have any responsibilities or other desires or even great fears about it - why not now?" And we start discerning.

Ah, but then we discover that some communities think we are too old, or that marriage or children might be an obstacle etc... and we aren't welcome in every community that we think would be nice. What???? How dare they? Don't they know who I am? don't they know that God is calling me?! And that I am trying to answer? I have a vocation! Why should age matter? Or marriage or children? This is terrible of them! God is all loving and all embracing - HE would welcome me - why won't they?? So what if I didn't offer Him the first fruits of the tree, at least I'm offering what is left!

Ok, so maybe I have gone over the top a little but the principle is the same. When God called, we weren't ready to answer "yes". Or maybe we didn't even hear the call way back then, but we do now. So what does that mean? It means that God is always going to luv us, and is generous beyond our comprehension. It doesn't mean that all obstacles must now be eliminated to make things easy for us. Just as we faced certain trials and temptations when first called, now we face different trials and temptations that could affect our response to His call. Our soul still needs testing by fire. Before, we might have worried about whether we wanted to get married and have children, or if we could give up everything for Him. But now, having done much and seen through it all, that God is really the only thing worth having, well, our trials are not the same any more.

Maybe our trials now are that we have to look harder to find a community that will accept us - especially since we now have very specific ideas about what type of community we want, habited, traditional etc.... And maybe a little humility is being asked of us so that we don't come to God saying "Ok, God, I am now ready and willing to devote my life to you - you must be so happy - where do you want me?" but instead we need to approach Him saying "My Lord, I have rejected your call (or ignored it or couldn't hear it) for so many years because I wanted to follow my own will. But I see that you haven't stopped loving me or offering me your heart. I know that I am late, but please won't you accept me now? I know that I am stubborn and arrogant and that I still care about things like habits and how things are done, so in your kindness, will you please help me to find a place where I can say "yes" with all my heart? I know I don't deserve that you should be so kind to me after my rejection of your offer, but because of your incredible loving kindness, I trust that you will accept this 11th hour offering with just as much mercy as you accept those who come early."

I just think that if we stop and look at what an incredible kindness God does in even allowing us to approach Him, then we can see whatever happens as little tests of our luv for Him. I honestly believe that no loving heart is going to be turned away by Him, if it is offered in all humility. So instead of thinking about why it is that a community might have certain rules or requirements for entry, we could be thinking about how we might make ourselves more pleasing to Him. And with all faith and trust in Him, we take our little steps of discernment but allow Him to close some doors and open others as He wills. And with every closed door we can say "Thank you, Lord for making my longing for you grow even more. Please keep me close so that I won't turn away this time. I still want to serve you - please keep leading me by the hand until I can see where you want me." And then we go try at another community - still grateful that we have even been called.

edited to remove all the little words substitutions that pop up since April first!

Edited April 4, 2008 by nunsense