Irreconcible Theology Part I

[Dave]

It also seems that what Catholic apologist teach non-Catholic Christians and what is actually practiced can be different things.

How so, if you don't mind my asking? I hope that's not a stupid question on my part.

[the_rev]

True Devotion To Mary, St. Louis De Montfort

I was watching Ewtn today there was this guy talking about the 5th glorious mystery, which is the cornation of Mary as queen of heaven and of Earth. He kept referring to that book, and said it really changed his life. AFter I heard that I went to www.half.com and bought it. From what he was reading from it, I'd recommend it without reading it.

[Anna]

Brother Adam,

I'm so glad it's beginning to "click."

I didn't read where anyone said you'd have to be Catholic to understand, but I would say this: "how would you describe 'love' to someone who has never experienced it?" This is the trouble we Catholics have in describing "hyperdulia."

It's the highest form of honor given to a human being, and only to one human being: Mary.

All other humans worthy of honor receive "dulia."

And God receives "latria," which is, of course, worship.

I'd suggest to you that if Leonardo daVinci was alive today, and hosting an art show, he would not tire of hearing praise upon praise heaped upon his masterpiece, the Mona Lisa. For, in praising his handiwork, the admirer is praising the artist.

This is how it is when Catholics "praise" Mary. We understand her to be God's great masterpiece of creation, above even the angels. In honoring her for the many wonderous gifts she has, with which no other human can compare, we are truly honoring Him who created her.

gtg

Pax Christi. <><

[PhatPhred]

It also seems that what Catholic apologist teach non-Catholic Christians and what is actually practiced can be different things.

I'm not sure apologists enter into the equation. Unfortunately, there is sometimes a disconnect between the authentic teachings of the Catholic Church and what is actually practiced by individual Catholics. This happens not only in the area of devotion to Mary, but other areas such as birth control and the Iraqi war.

The most authoritative expression of the actual Church teaching on the topic of Mary can be found in ..., you guessed it, the documents of the Second Vatican Council. Take a look at the Dogmatic Constitution LUMEN GENTIUM on the Church (this is an HTML link!!!), Chapter 8, paragraphs 52 to 69. Anyone (whether apologists or not) who teaches or practices something different than what is contained here need not be heeded.

[Laudate_Dominum]

L_D,

I wish I was very busy! Unfortunately I'm out of work right now. Most unskilled employees are up here. Shoot, I'd give anything to get a job in ministry, but unfortunately a degree means everything these days.

_________________________

Thank you all for your hard work on these responses. This still remains something I can't agree on, as someone mentioned, it is an irreconcilable theology. I still believe giving Mary names belonging only to God remains an act that should not take place.

A couple of notes though -

It does bother me that one would mention "You can't really understand it until you are a Catholic". This is a tactic I've seen used many times by JW's and Mormons. I'm not saying that Catholicism is a false religion, but eek, scary stuff.

It also seems that what Catholic apologist teach non-Catholic Christians and what is actually practiced can be different things. I'm going to keep pondering and keep praying. I know though that my time is quickly drawing to a close that I will have to keep devoting this kind of time to study as I am in desperate need for work to keep me and my wife afloat.

Aww! I'm unemployed too. Otherwise I probably wouldn't have racked up nearly 1,000 posts in a few short weeks.

I'll pray that you get an amesome job, hopefully in ministry.

[Laudate_Dominum]

It does bother me that one would mention "You can't really understand it until you are a Catholic". This is a tactic I've seen used many times by JW's and Mormons. I'm not saying that Catholicism is a false religion, but eek, scary stuff.

Fortunately that's not exactly what I said. What I said was:

1. You cannot be "expected" to understand the heights of Marian doctrine and devotion [this doesn't exclude a reasonable grasp of Mariology in general] from reading some apologetics posts and articles. And just because this cannot be "expected" doesn't mean it's not possible.

2. I emphasized the "heart" dimension. Namely that the doctrine and devotion cannot be grasped in their fullness until it's actually lived. This could apply to Jesus too. Is it not right to say that a searcher who knows the Bible and Christian doctrine does not fully understand until he actually has an active and personal relationship with Christ?

3. I affirmed that you can indeed have an "intellectual grasp" of Marian doctrine and devotion. But I indicated that this would probably require a lot of research (or infused understanding ). This correlates with #1 where I emphasised that the things you brought up have to do with the heights of Marian doctrine & devotion.

This is perfectly reasonable I would say. Normal apologetics answers are short and easy to comprehend. If you want to understand something like "The Glories of Mary" or "True Devotion to Mary" as a protestant you would probably need to have a more thorough and intimate grasp of Catholic doctrine then short, summary apologetics can provide. I would also recommend reading the books in their entirety to get the full context of what the author is actually saying.

So what I actually said has nothing to do with what mormons say. I wasn't implying that you have to take some total blind leap of faith and then you will understand. You can achieve a reasonable level of certitude but you cannot deny that an outsiders knowledge is still lacking compared to the knowledge of experience.

Here is the quote again so you can see for yourself:

You cannot be expected to understand the heights of Marian doctrine and devotion from just reading some apologetics posts and articles. After my conversion I understood these things more in the heart and from experiencing Mary's presence and activity in my life and in the Church. If you want an intellectual grasp of it, it will probably require a lot of research.

I hope this clears up your concerns.

Edited February 23, 2004 by Laudate_Dominum

[Archangel]

I was watching Ewtn today there was this guy talking about the 5th glorious mystery, which is the cornation of Mary as queen of heaven and of Earth.  He kept referring to that book, and said it really changed his life.  AFter I heard that I went to www.half.com and bought it.  From what he was reading from it, I'd recommend it without reading it.

It is available online here: http://www.theworkofgod.org/Library/Links/Trud_lnk.htm

[Katt1227]

I've been catholic all my life (21 years now) and I never "got" all the "Mary stuff". I still don't think I "get" it. But, I'm beginning to learn the dogma and doctrine, and the more I learn, the more love and respect I have for Mary. She was so incredibly open to whatever God wanted to do that she said "yes" and this "yes" allowed for God to become flesh. Without her "Yes", Christ could not have been born. So I love her for allowing this. For trusting in God so much that she just accepted his plan, without ipmosing her own wants or needs. That we could all trust so much. Mary didn't say, "okay, God, but I kind of want to do this, so how about we do it this way" or "well, maybe, but not right now... can't I wait until later". She simply said "Let it be done to me".

Funny story. One of my protestant friends started hanging out with my Catholic friends, talking about Christ and all that jazz... well he struggled with a lot of the "catholic" stuff and one day he went to a Museum that was featuring art of the Madonna with Child, and he saw something in one of the paintings, and called a friend of mine to say "I get Mary. I understand. Mary is about obedience. Mary followed what God wanted of her". It was this Protestant friend who taught me a lot about Mary...so it's not just a Catholic thing.

[Laudate_Dominum]

who said you can't understand it till you're Catholic? that's not true, there are protestants who have come to find Mary as Mother and Queen too, there's books out there... i forget what they're called, by protestants who are not even on a journey to Catholocism who accept a lot of Catholocism's teachings on Mary.

Al,

It was implied that I was talking about "the heights of Marian doctrine and devotion". And I have known or known of protestants who believed in Mary's sinlessness, bodily Assumption, praying to Mary, etc.. But I have yet to meet a protestant who reads "The Glories of Mary" or "True Devotion to Mary" for fun. And while there might be a few out there that doesn't really devastate my post because it was a generalization anyway. There are exceptions to everything practically. And protestantism can mean almost anything nowadays. But my question for a protestant who practices true devotion to Mary would be, "what's keeping you from the Church?" It's the only Church that has Theology compatible with such a practice (well, the Orthodox are an exception ). And also a protestant of this kind (assuming they exist) would probably not be considered a protestant by protestants in general so their religious status would be debatable.

My earlier point was that to the conventional categories of protestant theology, the Church's Marian devotion and high Marian doctrine is irreconcilable. I think most protestants would not only admit this, but be proud of it.

[Archangel]

Uncanny. Carson Weber had me read Revelation 12. I looked up the "woman" mentioned in Revelation 12 in my commentaries. The only thing that makes any kind of sense is that it refers to Mary. One anti-Catholic source said it probably refers to the Messianic community of believers. Yeah, right.

Uncanny...It's starting to click

It is interesting to note that in Revelations, John juxtaposes the image of the ark of the covenant in 11:19 with the image of the woman in the sky in 12:1.

11:19, Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant could be seen in the temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder, an earthquake, and a violent hailstorm.

12:1, A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.

Mary is regarded as "the ark of the covenant". From the Catechism of the Catholic Church 2676:

This twofold movement of prayer to Mary has found a privileged expression in the Ave Maria:

Hail Mary (or Rejoice, Mary): the greeting of the angel Gabriel opens this prayer. It is God himself who, through his angel as intermediary, greets Mary. Our prayer dares to take up this greeting to Mary with the regard God had for the lowliness of his humble servant and to exult in the joy he finds in her.

Full of grace, the Lord is with thee: These two phrases of the angel's greeting shed light on one another. Mary is full of grace because the Lord is with her. The grace with which she is filled is the presence of him who is the source of all grace. "Rejoice . . . O Daughter of Jerusalem . . . the Lord your God is in your midst." Mary, in whom the Lord himself has just made his dwelling, is the daughter of Zion in person, the ark of the covenant, the place where the glory of the Lord dwells. She is "the dwelling of God . . . with men." Full of grace, Mary is wholly given over to him who has come to dwell in her and whom she is about to give to the world.

Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. After the angel's greeting, we make Elizabeth's greeting our own. "Filled with the Holy Spirit," Elizabeth is the first in the long succession of generations who have called Mary "blessed." "Blessed is she who believed. . . . " Mary is "blessed among women" because she believed in the fulfillment of the Lord's word. Abraham. because of his faith, became a blessing for all the nations of the earth. Mary, because of her faith, became the mother of believers, through whom all nations of the earth receive him who is God's own blessing: Jesus, the "fruit of thy womb."

[Donna]

I was the one who indeed inferred that Our Lady could not be understood on the "outside." While recognizing and being very grateful for prevenient grace, this was not the same as being on the "inside."

BTW, Adam, my beloved author Evelyn Waugh in his own conversion story said for all those who wish to understand..."come inside" the Catholic Church. [i]I was totally unimpressed with this! [/i]

But it is false, that this is a tactic, tho I understand why it might appear so.

I pray Our Lady herself pray you into your new job! May it be the best yet...


This is what I wrote, and [color=blue]I now insert comments in blue[/color] to make it clearer:

[i]"For many months while converting, and after I was received into the Church, I would not pray the "Hail, Holy Queen" prayer, until I understood a lot more about why Popes and such would attribute to Mary what I thought would only be attributed to God.

"In the end ([color=blue][I]while[/i] converting, when I was quite hostile to Our Lady[/color]), I was given grace to think long and deeply, over a period of week and months, also taking to God my doubts and questions. I wanted them answered and so I asked Him and was, I think, willing to let Him answer me and to accept His answer.

"One of His answers was to keep me asking for Mary's intercession [color=blue](which I continued to do before being received...but also after, because it wasn't [i]until[/i] Catholic that I could even begin looking into her as "Queen" - of anything). [/color][color=red][b]One can only grasp it from the sidelines to a certain point. And the same can be said about the gift of faith itself, and other like things.[/b][/color][/I]

[frozencell]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Feb 21 2004, 10:32 AM'] The most famous catholic prayer, worldwide, is of course the Rosary. In it there are 150 prayers prayed repetitiously to Mary, compared to about 15 to Almighty God. Does that not seem a bit "out of wack" to you, if the CC worships God, but only admires Mary? [/quote]
I actually asked my priest about this because I was wondering why all of the Hail Mary's myself.

The monks of the time prayed all the Psalms everyday. There's 150 of them. The masses were mostly illiterate. They wanted to be like the monks, but they couldn't memorize the Psalms because they couldn't read them. The monks got together and devised a way that the masses could pray as mucha s them, but with only a few prayers they could remember. The 150 time repitition is symbolic of the 150 Psalms, the Hail Mary's point to the Our Father's. Mary is not being idolized or worshipped here, but pointing to God in each decade of the rosary.

Hope this helps.

Edited March 4, 2004 by frozencell

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='PhatPhred' date='Feb 22 2004, 06:19 PM']
The most authoritative expression of the actual Church teaching on the topic of Mary can be found in ..., you guessed it, the documents of the Second Vatican Council. Take a look at the [url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html"]Dogmatic Constitution [i]LUMEN GENTIUM[/i] on the Church (this is an HTML link!!!)[/url], Chapter 8, paragraphs 52 to 69. Anyone (whether apologists or not) who teaches or practices something different than what is contained here need not be heeded. [/quote]
Somehow I doubt if the Catholic apologetists get it wrong.

[cmotherofpirl]

You can also browse ROSARIUM VIRGINIS MARIAE
[url="http://ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2rosar.htm"]http://ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2rosar.htm[/url]

and chapter 6 of ECCLESIA DE EUCHARISTIA
[url="http://ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/JP2EUCHA.HTM"]http://ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/JP2EUCHA.HTM[/url]

[PhatPhred]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Mar 4 2004, 10:41 AM']Somehow I doubt if the Catholic apologetists get it wrong. [/quote]
Unlike the doubt you seem to have about our bishops.