Irreconcible Theology Part I

[Brother Adam]

After the studing of Catholicism I have done, I've only run into a few things that I think in the end would be totally irreconcilable and keep me from ever "returning home". I'm going to post a series of threads to address these concerns.

The first is of Mariam devotion. In the excerpt below a Baptist-Convert shares why he believes Mariam devotion is idolotry. I would like you to specifically address this post in a way that shows that what is taking place is NOT idolatry. At this point I have to agree though that the words used by Catholic leadership show this type of devotion is Idolatry.

Thank you for your time and effort given to this topic.

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Brother Adam:

"Why must a Catholic be worshipping Mary as a diety? Why can't Mariam devotion be just Mariam devotion- that is- "intense love or admiration for"?"

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Mike:

Because the official positions of the CC regarding Mary go waaaay beyond simply expressing admiration for her. They adress her as if she were a goddess.

They attribute to her powers and protections that only God can provide, in effect making her into a goddess. They kneel before her statues and kiss her feet. They carry images of her in processions through the streets of cities for thousands to sing her praises. The most famous catholic prayer, worldwide, is of course the Rosary. In it there are 150 prayers prayed repetitiously to Mary, compared to about 15 to Almighty God. Does that not seem a bit "out of wack" to you, if the CC worships God, but only admires Mary?

I have shared official CC sanctioned prayers articulated to Mary, and gone through them sentance by sentance, and shown that the scriptures identify Almighty God as being the one to whom those sentiments and requests are to be directed to, yet they are all directed to the mere human being Mary.

Simply telling millions of catholics, worldwide, in all time zones, that they can pray to Mary at any time credits Mary with omnipresence, and attribute that no mere human being has...only God.

Let me share again the testimonies of some exceedingly prominant Catholics concerning Mary, that Bob Ryan posted. Please prayefully consider whether this is appropriate...

"Mary is all powerful with her divine Son who grants all graces to mankind through her" - Pope Benedict XV, Fausto Appetente Die

"All power is given to Thee [Mary] in heaven and on earth that at the command of Mary all obey, even God. Alphonsus de Liguori, Roman Catholic Cardinal and "saint", from his book The Glories of Mary

"Since the Mother, then, should have the same power as the Son, rightly has Jesus, who is omnipotent, made Mary also omnipotent; The Glories of Mary. (pp 180-181)

"She is omnipotent, because by her prayers she obtains whatever SHE wills. (The Glories of Mary pp 182)

"With a still more ardent zeal for piety, religion and love, let them continue to venerate, invoke and pray to the most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, conceived without original sin. Let them fly with utter confidence to this most sweet Mother of mercy and grace in all dangers, difficulties, needs, doubts and fears. Under her guidance, under her patronage, under her kindness and protection, nothing is to be feared; nothing is hopeless. Because,

while bearing toward us a truly motherly affection and having in her care the work of our salvation, she is solicitous about the whole human race." - Pope Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus

These things are exceedingly problematic and inappropriate. If the word "worship" bothers you(although I do not know how anyone can miss that Mary is being worshipped), then I'll say it another way.

This is IDOLATRY. These things are idolatrous and are an abomination.

And these are not some excentric Catholics over in a corner somewhere. These are Popes and highly regarded Catholic thinkers and theologians. The prayers I posted earlier are officially sanctioned catholic prayers. The Rosary is as official as anything can be in the Catholic world.

The Catholic Church sponsers the processions of Mary idolatry, the kissing of the feet of statues of Mary, and the veneration of paintings of Mary, and gives their "blessing" to all of the Mary apperitions, visitations and shrines devoted to her.

It is highly improper. It is idolatrous.

God bless,

Mike

[Mary's Knight, La]

this may have been brought up before on a similar thread but a priest once pointed out that when any religion worships something as a deity (as opposed to just holding it in a place of honor) all of them without exception offer sacrifices to please it. the jews had animals and christians have our lives.

while i can see how the language could easily give you a problem that's why the church teaches along with it's writing so what it writes can be properly understood. If God had picked some inanimate object through which He would distribute grace to the world, nobody would say that object was God... (let's leave the Eucharist out of it for now it's gotta be a special circumstance when God says the object is Him). If God asks me to petition Him on your behalf so He can be doubly gracious by giving you what you need and answering my prayer. You wouldn't call me God. and if God provided me with something, let's say money for ease of example, and asked me to give it to you, so that He could give me the pleasure of assisting in His divine plan, and give you the money you need you still wouldn't call me God. It is much the same with mary. He set it up as evidenced particularly by the wedding at Cana so that we can ask her for help, knowing and understanding she will in turn go to Jesus. and Jesus in turn hands her the grace to give to us so that she can have the honor of helping Him.

mike forgot one important part of the rosary the meditations on the life of Christ. Most of the wording does indeed ask for the help of mary but look at what we are doing when asking for help... it becomes clear that we are asking her to obtain and give help to us in understanding the life of Jesus so that we may follow him ever more closely. if we were not meditating on the life of Christ i would more than likely be agreeing with the condemnation of it as mary-worship as well as vain repitition. also i disagree about the rosary being the most famous catholic prayer. if you mean by "catholic prayer" prayers that catholics say then probably the Lord's Prayer or the Mass. if you mean prayers only prayed by catholics well i've heard of some baptists particularly those in retirement communities and such praying the rosary as well...

saying we can pray to her at any time doesn't give her omnipresence so much as it shows she is removed from the physical world and no longer sleeps.

the processions serve as a reminder to people of her position in relation to Christ

kissing the statue, while i havent seen it done, would be much the same as a husband kissing the picture of his deceased wife, or a child kissing the picture of a deceased mother it is a sign of love and respect.

while i said earlier i do understand how the wording can lead one astray, it highlights the importance of the personal teaching that accompanies the writings much the way personal teaching by the apostles and the successors is needed to accompany the bible.

as for kneeling before the statue if we're kneeling in prayer then i would say it's a quite correct posture for prayer, i've never heard of genuflecting before a statue though, if it happens it would be the way a gentleman used to bow to a lady.

if you wanna talk about the rosary any more let's not forget the creed at the beginning it mentions mary only once "I believe in Jesus Christ His only Son, conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin mary, crucified under pontius pilate..." then there's the 15 Glory Be s which don't mention her at all, and the 15 fatima prayers which don't mention her at all either, though she's the one who asked us to pray those...

anyways hope this helps, your post was a pleasure to read and a pleasure to respond to. Keep 'em coming

Edited February 21, 2004 by Mary's Knight, La

[Hananiah]

They attribute to her powers and protections that only God can provide, in effect making her into a goddess.

God has a precedent of delegating power to his creatures. So long as Catholics recognize that the only power Mary has is that which God gives to her, we will not be Maryolaters anymore than we are Elijaolaters or Mosesolaters.

The most famous catholic prayer, worldwide, is of course the Rosary. In it there are 150 prayers prayed repetitiously to Mary, compared to about 15 to Almighty God.

Actually there are 50 prayers adressed to God, 151 adressed to Mary, and 1 to St. Michael the Archangel. Then at the end we invoke a whole host of Saints. Besides, the majority of the meditations are on events in the life of Christ. The rosary is really a Christ centered prayer.

Simply telling millions of catholics, worldwide, in all time zones, that they can pray to Mary at any time credits Mary with omnipresence, and attribute that no mere human being has...only God.

I suppose time is linear in heaven, too. God can make anyone in heaven aware of any event on earth he wishes to. This applies to all the Saints, not just Mary. If ten thousand people ask St. John Bosco to pray for them, he can pray for all ten thousand and finish in negative 5 days.

"All power is given to Thee [Mary] in heaven and on earth that at the command of Mary all obey, even God." Alphonsus de Liguori, Roman Catholic Cardinal and "saint", from his book The Glories of Mary

Well, God obeyed the command of Mary at Cana.

This is IDOLATRY. These things are idolatrous and are an abomination.

No, this is proper recognition of what God has done for His greatest creation.

[the_rev]

Let us examine the Rosary,

Jesus was the one that taught the holy rosary. Jesus's prayer is incorporarated in the rosary.

Now let us look at the Hail Mary

Hail Mary Full of Grace, the Lord is with thee- The angel gabriel was the first to pray Hail Mary fulll of grace the Lord is with thee, when Mary was told by the angel that she would have a son "Hail Mary full of grace" was way Mary was greeted. Therefore comes from the bible. The divine inspired word of God.

"Blessed among Woman"- Comes from bible also, Elizabeth said this to Mary during the Visitation. This comes from the bibel, the divine inspired word of God.

"Holy Mary Mother of God" comes directly from the title to affirm Mary's Divinity during the Council of Ephesis (spelling?) 431 A.D.

Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death AMEN- Why not ask this holy woman to pray for us, as she is the queen in heaven. Affirmed by psalm 45 "the queen sits at your right hand arrayed in Gold.

In the book of Genesis, she will crush the head of satan.

Hail Mary full of grace the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou amongst woman and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary Mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death AMEN.

[Archangel]

We honor, respect, and venerate Mary because the Church teaches us that she is not only the mother of Jesus, but the mother of God because Jesus is God. In addition, the Church teaches us that Mary was always without sin, or "full of grace" and "blessed among women" as the bible says. We believe Mary is powerful before Jesus (God) because we believe she is the sinless Mother of God.

One of God's commandments is to "honor thy father and thy mother." Can you imagine how much love and honor Jesus, all powerful God, gives to his dear and sinless mother, Mary?

The bible also tells us that "the prayer of a righteous man is powerful". Who is more righteous and powerful than one who is without sin?

Finally, we love Mary with tender devotion because the Church teaches us that she is not only the mother of Jesus, but our mother as well. Jesus Himself gave her to us to be our mother when He was dying on the cross. Addressing John and Mary, He said, "behold thy son … behold thy mother."

We believe that Mary is the sinless mother of God and of us, and we love and venerate her as such. Her intercessioin is powerful and her love is so tender.

We express these sentiments when we pray the most popular prayer to Mary, the Hail Mary. The first half of the Hail Mary comes right out of the bible from the words of praise that the archangel Gabriel and her cousin Elizabeth addressed to her. The second half of the prayer asks Mary to intercede for us. We pray the Hail Mary over 150 times in a traditional rosary to ask her powerful intercession before almighty God, her son Jesus.

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.

Blessed are you among women

And blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.

Holy Mary, Mother of God,

pray for us sinners,

now and at the hour of our death.

Amen.

[thicke]

God has a precedent of delegating power to his creatures.  So long as Catholics recognize that the only power Mary has is that which God gives to her, we will not be Maryolaters anymore than we are Elijaolaters or Mosesolaters.

Brother Adam - I would like to expand on what Hananiah said a little.

Please read the following from Acts, Chap. 3:

1 Now Peter and John went up into the temple at the ninth hour of prayer.

2 And a certain man who was lame from his mother's womb was carried: whom they laid every day at the gate of the temple, which is called Beautiful, that he might ask alms of them that went into the temple.

3 He, when he had seen Peter and John, about to go into the temple, asked to receive an alms.

4 But Peter with John, fastening his eyes upon him, said: Look upon us.

5 But he looked earnestly upon them, hoping that he should receive something of them.

6 But Peter said: Silver and gold I have none; but what I have, I give thee. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, arise and walk.

7 And taking him by the right hand, he lifted him up: and forthwith his feet and soles received strength.

8 And he leaping up, stood and walked and went in with them into the temple, walking and leaping and praising God.

Now, is it wrong to say Peter or John healed the lame man? We know that the power to heal came from God. It is the same with Mary. We know that it is God's infinite power working in Marian devotions and miracles (including apparitions). We give glory to God and worship him. But, we also accept that because he uses Mary as a vessel for his power and love (just like those nine months when she was pregnant with our Lord), that we must acknowledge her place in salvation history.

Edited February 21, 2004 by thicke

[Brother Adam]

Yes, I have heard these arguments.

Please address the specific writings from Catholic authority addressed in Mikes post.

[DojoGrant]

Brother Adam,

I have dealt with many of these "passages" and "quotes" before. Especially from The Glories of Mary (notice how many times that is used). I eventually looked them up. Sometimes two or even three sentences were minced together. Sometimes they weren't even on the same page. These people aren't getting these prayers themselves. They're getting them from people who got them from someone who got them from somewhere that originally took it out of context.

If a specific quote bothers you, find the source and read the whole section its in. Context is everything, and these things are very out of context. Marian doctrine and veneration is not meant to be taken as just that; it is intimately tied with the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus, and these people deliberately separate it to make it something it is not. I've got the book "True Devotion to Mary" by St. Montfort and read this same type of language. He'll use it, and then say in the same page, something to the effect of, "While this is true, it is only because of her infinite humility and subjection to her Son" or that Mary, despite our devotion to her, is "infinitely less than that which we give to the Father."

Context, context, context.

[KennC]

"The Glories of Mary" a dialogue

I havn't read through it but it may help Adam.

[Laudate_Dominum]

"The Glories of Mary" a dialogue

I havn't read through it but it may help Adam.

Thanks KennC, I just read the article and I HIGHLY recommend it!!!

Brother Adam- I'm sure you're a busy guy, but if you find time I would suggest reading this article as well as the articles that are linked within the article.

It is much better than anything someone can say in a short post.

If you are incredibly studious here are more resources:

(the original article, posted above- most recommended)

http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ54.HTM

http://www.catholicapologetics.net/apolo_31.htm

http://cathinsight.com/apologetics/saints.htm

http://cathinsight.com/apologetics/adventism/redemp.htm

http://www.catholicapologetics.net/apolo_31.htm

http://www.cathinsight.com/apologetics/adventism/image.htm

http://www.lumengentleman.com/index.asp?f=mediatrix

http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/praying.htm

http://www.catholic.com/library/Rosary.asp

http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

http://www.catholic.com/library/Saint_Worship.asp

http://www.catholic.com/library/Do_Catholi...hip_Statues.asp

http://www.catholic.com/library/Intercessi..._the_Saints.asp

Books (Popular):

* Catholic for a Reason II: Scripture and the Mystery of the Mother of God, Emmaus Road Publishing

Hail, Holy Queen: The Mother of God In The Word of God, Scott Hahn

Refuting the Attack on Mary, Father Mateo

For the Love of Mary, Gerard Morrison

Mary: Mirror of the Church, Raniero Cantalamessa

True Devotion To Mary, St. Louis De Montfort

Books (Scholarly):

* All Generations Shall Call Me Blessed, Stephano Manelli

Mary in the Mystery of the Covenant, Ignace de la Potterie (sp?)

Mary Coredemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate, Dr. Mark Miravalle (also any of this author's other books)

* = Most recommended

I think this is a most important thing. You cannot be expected to understand the heights of Marian doctrine and devotion from just reading some apologetics posts and articles. After my conversion I understood these things more in the heart and from experiencing Mary's presence and activity in my life and in the Church. If you want an intellectual grasp of it, it will probably require a lot of research.

And you are right, the Marian stuff is completely irreconcilable, with protestantism that is. And I can assure you, I read the Bible and have studies it a fair amount. And I would certainly not be one to do blasphemy and idolatry!! I can assure you that the teachings and practice of the Church do not endorse idolatry.

The catechism has things to say about idolatry, the saints, Mary, images and statues, devotions, etc.. I can assure you that the practices of the Church are not idolatry! And I'm not a deluded and/or stupid person.

God bless you Brother Adam! :)

[KennC]

Hi L_D;

I'm slow ... I had read it before, some time ago now but it was good to read it again.

[Donna]

Brother Adam...thank you for posting your concerns.

I, too, would like to know page and verse of the Glories of Mary quotes.

Yet, I can tell you, that in a booklet I have (older one) of Public devotions/Novena to Our Mother of Perpetual Help, in one of the prayers it states clearly and unambiguously that Mary is the dispenser of all the gifts of God...and that she as Queen of heaven and Earth, of angels and men, has true Queenly power and perogative.

For many months while converting, and after I was received into the Church, I would not pray the "Hail, Holy Queen" prayer, until I understood a lot more about why Popes and such would attribute to Mary what I thought would only be attributed to God.

In the end, I was given grace to think long and deeply, over a period of week and months, also taking to God my doubts and questions. I wanted them answered and so I asked Him and was, I think, willing to let Him answer me and to accept His answer.

One of His answers was to keep me asking for Mary's intercession. One can only grasp it from the sidelines to a certain point. And the same can be said about the gift of faith itself, and other like things.

Now, the following is my own fallible understnding of things, and I stand corrected if I'm wrong.

But the short answer to your question is simple: God literally came through to us, through Mary. "Jesus Christ" means "the Word Made Flesh", correct? "Jesus" means "Savior", correct?

But this Jesus, in a very precise sense, so to speak, did not exist, before the Incarnation. I'm sorry, that sounds wrong, and it is, but I don't know how else to explain it. The fact is, the Second Person existed, of course, but Him MADE FLESH did not "come" except through Mary. And for His own reasons, The Blessed Trinity decreed and willed positively for all time, that mankind would be redeemed by specifically the Word Made Flesh. He, therefore, HAD to be made flesh, not because God couldn't accomplish redemption another way, but because God willed it that way.

In Hebrews it says "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, tomorrow." If you know your theology you know that changeability is an attribute only of creatures; it implies imperfection. God does not change. He stays the same.

And so when He wills positively (not merely "allowing" something to happen) that our Salvation, lieterally, is to come through this woman cited in Genesis, altho the Incarnation/birth of Jesus was a one-time event, the means of her being a unique means throuigh whom God worked and whom we needed and abosolutely had to have, in order to have salvation via the one-time event of the incarnation, do not change. Ever.

God willed that this means - her - be necessary for us, to obtain salvation (Jesus).

It was her will that the first public miracle occur, not His.

She obtained what she willed. God obeyed her in childhood...we have the example of Cana. If He does not change, is it possible He would continue to grant what she willed?

But we're not talking about your mother or mine (much as we love them, or, wise as they may be). We are talking about the Seat of Wisdom. Her heart and will cannot be other than beating in unison with God, and she is absolutely singular.

God made her what she is. And thank God! She IS truly human, with her own mind and will, her own personality and ways...which ravished Him, for He who could not be contained by the world, confined Himself to her womb. And His Name, at which every knee must bend, in heaven, on earth and under the earth, subjected Himself to and obeyed His own creature.

For, what, 7/8's of His life, He was a Son! That's what He did, be the Son of the Holy Family.

We have the example of the King of Kings right in front of our eyes. It's so simple it's easy to miss. And Americans do not probably understand Kingship and Queenship, even on a natural plane. But she is the Queen Mother...and in my own mind, the Queen Daughter and Queen Mystical Spouse, as well.

She is the Queen of the Jews; the Queen of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

We can ask God about the truth of these things, and take all our doubts, point by point, to Him.

Edited February 22, 2004 by Donna

[Brother Adam]

L_D,

I wish I was very busy! Unfortunately I'm out of work right now. Most unskilled employees are up here. Shoot, I'd give anything to get a job in ministry, but unfortunately a degree means everything these days.

_________________________

Thank you all for your hard work on these responses. This still remains something I can't agree on, as someone mentioned, it is an irreconcilable theology. I still believe giving Mary names belonging only to God remains an act that should not take place.

A couple of notes though -

It does bother me that one would mention "You can't really understand it until you are a Catholic". This is a tactic I've seen used many times by JW's and Mormons. I'm not saying that Catholicism is a false religion, but eek, scary stuff.

It also seems that what Catholic apologist teach non-Catholic Christians and what is actually practiced can be different things. I'm going to keep pondering and keep praying. I know though that my time is quickly drawing to a close that I will have to keep devoting this kind of time to study as I am in desperate need for work to keep me and my wife afloat.

[Aloysius]

who said you can't understand it till you're Catholic? that's not true, there are protestants who have come to find Mary as Mother and Queen too, there's books out there... i forget what they're called, by protestants who are not even on a journey to Catholocism who accept a lot of Catholocism's teachings on Mary.

[Brother Adam]

Uncanny. Carson Weber had me read Revelation 12. I looked up the "woman" mentioned in Revelation 12 in my commentaries. The only thing that makes any kind of sense is that it refers to Mary. One anti-Catholic source said it probably refers to the Messianic community of believers. Yeah, right.

Uncanny...It's starting to click