Thoughts From A Newcomer

[praxedes]

Pax!

Just a quick response before I run off to where I am supposed to be. Thanks for the welcome. Anna, no problem. Ewie, I wrote to you privately but I'll give a quick recap for the people here. Just to clarify...my spiritual director gave me a list of websites/forums/discussion groups, etc., not because I am in any kind of vocational crisis or serious trouble but because I am struggling. That's not being too personal or revealing too much because I have to believe that we all struggle in one or another. I'm sure as we get to know each other better, I will share more. Just to make sure everybody understands....I am looking for some support, prayer, understanding, and most importantly, the opportunity to listen to others as they go through the process of entering more deeply into relationship with God.

I'm not crazy! I certainly don't think (nor does my Spiritual Director) that my struggles are going to disappear, end or be solved via Phatmass!

I guess that is why it is (was) so important for me to talk about - right away - the freedom for people here to speak openly and with candor. I've joined some other discussion groups, and I'm sure I will find some appropriate support in the way that I need it. But in the meantime, I couldn't resist posting my thoughts as a newcomer, and encouraging those with a voice and the ability to critically think - to do so!

Anyway, keep the comments/thoughts/ponderings coming. I'm not sure there is anything as valuable as people feeling safe enough to share the inner workings of their soul, and where they are! and in all candor from my end, this is what thrills me! This is why I am here, and Gloriagurl, Gemma, Tradmom, DameAgnes, Anna....all the rest...keep it coming...speak up!

Thanks for the warm and fun welcome!

Praxedes

PS.....Anna....I WISH I were Mother Praxedes at the Abbey of Regina Laudis! Great artist!

[Guest ambrose]

I agree! We're all adults and there should be room for spirited, frank discussion. Sometimes it might not be all nice-and-pretty, and let us thank God for that. I haven't seen anyone truly speak out of turn, perhaps they've been a little spirited. If criticism has been worthwhile and correct, then we should be grateful to receive it, if it be wrong, let us remember the words of Christ Matthew 5:11
[b]
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.[/b]

(p.s. i don't know my bible that well, I did have to look it up)

And one other thing: let us not forget the overwhelmingly positive things on this board! Right now there are threads devoted to some OLAM photos, Liturgy of the Hours, someone visiting the Franciscan sisters, a family thread or two...there are still lots of great threads full of active, happy content just waiting to be read and responded to. It's not all bad, folks.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='praxedes' post='1486978' date='Mar 28 2008, 03:02 PM']If this is a forum, then it should be a forum. People should be allowed
to express their thoughts and opinions without fear they will be called
a name or put down. People can co-exist and have differing opinions.
And reactions. And likes/dislikes. OR…if I am wrong, and this is not a
safe place for people to express their thoughts, questions, opinions
and experiences, then restructure it. Don’t threaten the posters with
insulting comments like “We’re watching this carefully.” Is this for
adults or not? Moderators…if you want the children to ask questions, to
be answered with carefully scripted approved answers, then modify the
format of this forum. Otherwise, accept the fact that adults can
disagree and still love one another and be in community with one
another, and allow them to work it out.[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
first of all, welcome.

i am sure this is in response to [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=78436"]my thread[/url] about Vocation Station's mission and purpose. if not and i am being too sensitive, i am sorry. my intent in posting such a thread was not to have a 'big brother' presence in the vocation station, but rather to implore people to have some common sense and Christian charity in posting. since you are new, you may not have seen the many threads that we have had over the years that have gotten not just heated but denigrated into bickering and insult matches. i do not speak just about the recent ones, but others in the past as well.

as a moderator, i have been asked by dUSt (the owner of this wonderful website) to monitor the phorums, not just selected ones. i cannot (and the other mods) cannot just 'butt out' of a particular phorum and let adults hash it out, because too often, adults act like children. i do not mean to be insulting, and did not think i was; but rather i am trying to 'head off' behavior before it starts. i am sorry if this seems heavy-handed.

this is a job i do not take lightly, and i (and the other mods) abide by what dUSt has laid out for us. again, i apologize if i seemed 'big brotherly', that was not my intent at all. and i hope if you re-read my post, you will see the majority of it was about treating each other as potential sisters and brothers in Christ, not as entities on a computer. because it saddens me (and others who have commented elsewhere and to me personally) that the Vocation Station has become known for its very un-Christian attitudes at times.

God bless, Mary protect,
Lil Red

[Guest ambrose]

Hi LilRed,

Sorry to butt in again, but I just had a thought: why don't we have a list of specific guidelines to prevent misunderstandings.

One person's definition of "christian" and "charity" might be different from another. If there's a specific "code of conduct" i.e. Refrain from personal attacks/speculation about particular communities/yadda yadda, it might prevent misunderstandings.

Difficult questions, asked in charity, can be interpreted as "biting" when it is not the intention of the poster.

We know it's not an easy job being a moderator, so hang in there

[Lil Red]

[quote name='ambrose' post='1487367' date='Mar 28 2008, 09:37 PM']Hi LilRed,

Sorry to butt in again, but I just had a thought: why don't we have a list of specific guidelines to prevent misunderstandings.

One person's definition of "christian" and "charity" might be different from another. If there's a specific "code of conduct" i.e. Refrain from personal attacks/speculation about particular communities/yadda yadda, it might prevent misunderstandings.

Difficult questions, asked in charity, can be interpreted as "biting" when it is not the intention of the poster.

We know it's not an easy job being a moderator, so hang in there [/quote]
+J.M.J.+
i will suggest to dUSt that he add that to the guidelines already established, but you can find the phorums' guidelines [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?act=boardrules"]here.[/url]

i find the use of smilies to be very helpful in conveying (and not conveying) very helpful. God bless!

[franciscanheart]

i cant say there will ever be a formal address of your post by the moderating team, praxedes, but i want to speak for myself. ill quote you and answer you... (in two posts because i'm only allowed a certain amount of quoted blocks of text...)

[quote name='praxedes' post='1486978' date='Mar 28 2008, 04:02 PM']When one logs on to phatmass, and sees the "phorum" description, the
word "inclusive" is right underneath it. I took that to mean that all
of us should be included and respected, not just consecrated persons.[/quote]
I'm curious to know why you think only consecrated persons would be included... if anything, I'd think the unconsecrated would feel more included considering that most VS bashing starts and ends with consecrated persons!

[quote name='praxedes' post='1486978' date='Mar 28 2008, 04:02 PM']I’m really curious as to what “inclusive” means to the founders and
moderators.[/quote]
There is only one founder but many moderators. Each person probably has his own definition but we all share a common goal: to keep phatmass a friendly (charitable) environment for peoples of all faiths, ages, and backgrounds. The use of the word inclusive was used by the [i]founder[/i] of the site, dUSt. If you really want to know, email him.

[quote name='praxedes' post='1486978' date='Mar 28 2008, 04:02 PM']Does that mean that only the posters who sweetly agree with
someone they perceive to be in authority (because of their status as a
religious or pseudo religious) can post?[/quote]
I again have to wonder where you're finding this prejudice. What religious person has taken on an authority role? The only "authority" I know is dUSt... and I suppose the moderators as an extension of dUSt. (It must be understood, though, that dUSt is the head hancho and really, we just do what he says to do!)

[quote name='praxedes' post='1486978' date='Mar 28 2008, 04:02 PM']Does it mean that someone who
disagrees, and voices their opinion with support is shut down?
Christian charity cannot be enforced, sadly. Shutting down threads
because of heated discussions, in my opinion is counter-productive.
Leaving is also counter-productive. It is akin to a child picking up
his or her toys on the playground, with a great big foot stomp and
returning home to Mommy![/quote]
The closing of threads does not imply the end of a discussion. It simply implies the end of the discussion [i]on the boards[/i]. We, as moderators, are not going to tolerate constant bickering and name-calling. If someone is so determined to have such a petty argument (well, the argument may not be petty but their attitudes certainly are!), they are free to take it to private messages (PMs), a messenger (i.e. AIM), or email. We will not condone such ridiculous behavior on the boards, however. One thing dUSt has always said is that we as a church (and therefore as a phatmass community) stand united. If something is to be debated, it is to be debated in the "Debate Table". If something is to be [i]discussed[/i], it is to be discussed in a respectful manner, mindful of the fact that we are but a few in a vast multitude of believers and that, though we are entitled to our opinions, we do not know everything, nor do we control anyone.

[quote name='praxedes' post='1486978' date='Mar 28 2008, 04:02 PM']At some point or another, we are all called to accountability and we
are asked to defend our faith, our position, our beliefs and/or
thoughts. Communicating through the web is not perfect due to the loss
of face to face interaction and subtle body language and other means of
communication. People are (obviously) more apt to react without censor
because they are often alone and the only thing between them and the
rest of the world is the send button. But that’s okay, as far as I am
concerned. That’s what I was hoping to find here.

I was hoping to find some honesty, and some depth. I was hoping to find
a forum that lived up to its description of being “inclusive.” I was
hoping to find adults who are (were) able to walk up to the plate and
defend their choices and thoughts. This is impossible when threads are
closed and people are chastised as children for their behavior. Why is
it so difficult in this forum for people to express a variety of
opinions without being immediately put-down, corrected and/or labeled?[/quote]
Note that the moderators are not the ones doing the labeling. We do close threads - that much is true - but we do not label. The only labels given are those of "phishy" and "non-phishy". Those are in place for a specific reason and are not meant to create a fuss. It cannot be denied that, at times, even adults behave like children. In those moments, it is okay to charitably correct each other. Moderators are in place to "keep the peace" when members are unable to do this on their own. Whether or not individual members can conduct themselves in a manner which is appropriate, charitable, and/or productive has absolutely nothing to do with the moderating team. All we ask of our members is that they stay relative and productive. At the point that a thread becomes nothing but (or close to) name-calling, finger-pointing, and bickering, we close it. This is the way it's been done for a very long time and for very good reason.

[quote name='praxedes' post='1486978' date='Mar 28 2008, 04:02 PM']I have read a couple of times the chastisement that people expect more
out of this forum than any other because this is the forum that
reflects an individual’s desire to serve God as a religious. This is
very misleading, for religious are human beings first. They have no
more control over God’s call than the young man does who falls in love
with his bride. I find it interesting that the Vocation Station centers
around the vocation to religious life only. How do you include and
support those who feel called to marriage? Consecrated Virginity?
Diocesean Hermit? Single Life? Aren’t we all called to serve and love
God wholeheartedly? Aren’t we all called to consecrate our very lives
and selves to Him?[/quote]
This has been discussed many times before. If you'd like to know more about why this board focuses on vocations to the religious life, you may use the search feature or contact dUSt. (Don't expect an answer though. He doesn't respond to emails.)

[quote name='praxedes' post='1486978' date='Mar 28 2008, 04:02 PM']Is this really an inclusive “home” as so many of you call it? Are older
women welcome? What about older men? Are people who don’t know what
they want – or better yet – what God wants – welcome? Are people who
feel called to live in the world in an active order, without a habit,
welcome? Are people with life experiences, stories, handicaps,
problems, issues, welcome?[/quote]
If you ask the founder, dUSt, and his moderators, our answer would be a resounding "YES". We cannot, however, dictate how others will receive these people. Moderators do not close threads, warn or ban members based on their religious views, political views, race, background, etc. The Debate Table is the best proof of this! Even we moderators have differing opinions on many topics! We are each unique and that is something we appreciate. I'm sorry you have not yet experienced this truth. Perhaps you should read more, especially outside of VS!

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='praxedes' post='1486978' date='Mar 28 2008, 04:02 PM']Do we represent the Catholic Church when we
control and interrupt others’ speech? We have a rich history of
communication being paramount to our faith experience. As someone
already put it beautifully, our last great Holy Father was only too
able to stand tall and claim responsibility for our past mistakes! He
named them. He listened, and he broke the silence. It wasn’t
comfortable, for him, or for us. It was embarrassing, it was shocking,
it was hurtful. We heard things we wished we never heard, and oh….how
much easier it would have been if he stood in the middle of St. Peter’s
and shushed us all! But he didn’t do that….much like another great
Pope, he opened wide the windows and let the fresh air break through,
and the silence and secrecy that caused so much pain began to
ease. As Catholics, we are not in a cult that lives in a black and
white world, or enforces “doctrine over person,” (Lifton). One of the
most amazing aspects of our faith (at least to me) is our willingness
to live in mystery – to even acknowledge that we have mystery! We don’t
– as Catholics – have an explanation for every little thing. Sometimes,
we shrug our shoulders and claim the mystery to be what it is – a
mystery - and we celebrate this mystery in faith.[/quote]
We don't shuch productive conversation. We do, however, close topics that devolve into childish bickering. There is nothing wrong with that. When the members discuss issues respectfully and appropriately, threads are left untouched. More threads are left open than are closed. And usually, several warnings are given before a thread is closed. People are given more than a fair chance to conduct themselves in a way fitting for public communication. When they choose to ignore the requests of the "authority figures", consequences follow. As I said earlier, however, they are still more than welcome to continue their nonsense in private.

[quote name='praxedes' post='1486978' date='Mar 28 2008, 04:02 PM']To become a fully integrated member of a religious community takes a
lifetime. Just because you have a veil on your head and a Rosary
dangling from your belt does not mean you are living the life. You live
the life when you can love your community members as you love yourself.
When the Sister who clicks her pen during Lectio and drives you crazy,
smiles at you over her breviary during the LOH because she loves you,
and your heart melts because you realize… even though she’s driven you
crazy day in and day out … that you love her, too. You live the life
when you watch the Sister who never spoke a word to you the first four
months of your time in the convent die a horrible death from pancreatic
cancer; and you pray for her release and eternal joy with every breath
you have as you hold the bucket for her vomit. You live the life when
you cleanse her body after death and you realize she helped purify your
soul. You don’t live the life by having Mother Superior standing
over you, telling you to behave and stop it! You live the life when you
sit in her office, crying over something stupid, and she tells you to
get out there and start over. That’s when you live the life.[/quote]
Note that in each of your examples you have taken it upon yourself to take the higher road. If you were to glare at the sister clicking her pen or point your finger and call her names, you had better believe Mother Superior would be on you. Or your novice mistress would be. If you held a grudge against the sister that did not speak to you in your first four months and refused to hold that bucket, though there was no one else to hold it, you had better believe you would be called into obedience. So it is here. Just because we are online does not mean that "anything goes".

[quote name='praxedes' post='1486978' date='Mar 28 2008, 04:02 PM']If this is a forum, then it should be a forum. People should be allowed
to express their thoughts and opinions without fear they will be called
a name or put down. People can co-exist and have differing opinions.
And reactions. And likes/dislikes.[/quote]
Yes, this is true. We, as a moderating team, agree with you. This was the purpose of Lil Red's thread. To acknowledge that we are all entilted to (and have) our opinions and beliefs. We are asking that everyone take a moment to remember that fact and to behave in a way which reflects such knowledge.

[quote name='praxedes' post='1486978' date='Mar 28 2008, 04:02 PM']OR…if I am wrong, and this is not a
safe place for people to express their thoughts, questions, opinions
and experiences, then restructure it. Don’t threaten the posters with
insulting comments like “We’re watching this carefully.” Is this for
adults or not?[/quote]
This forum is open to people of many ages, some of them teens. Remember, though, that even adults behave like children. Being "adult" does not make you flawless, without need for occasional charitable correction. We are keeping an especially close eye on Vocation Station right now because of the number of issues that have arisen as of late. Lil Red's intention, I can assure you, was not to mock or insult you. Her intention, rather, was to point out that we do read what you post and that we will not tolerate threads to continue on without any real purpose (outside of name-calling and finger-pointing) or productivity. If you cannot behave like adults, do not be expected to be treated like adults.

[quote name='praxedes' post='1486978' date='Mar 28 2008, 04:02 PM']Moderators…if you want the children to ask questions, to
be answered with carefully scripted approved answers, then modify the
format of this forum. Otherwise, accept the fact that adults can
disagree and still love one another and be in community with one
another, and allow them to work it out.[/quote]
I mean no offense in what I am about to say but considering what has been said thus far, I fear you may take offense anyway. Still, I'm going to say it... You are a newbie. You have not been around for all of the previous bickering and arguments. You are also not a moderator. You do not see the reports we see and handle. You do not get the PMs from members that we get. If we saw that the posters of this board were working at resolving their differences charitably, or agreeing to disagree, we might not feel so inclined to issue a reminder about the intention of the board. That's all the thread was: a reminder. We absolutely understand that people will disagree. It is the way in which they voice their disagreements that we refuse to condone. This is supposed to be an includsive and therefore charitable environment for people to discuss things - including their differing opinions on various matters! - but cannot be such if we allow for threads to devolve into bickering, name-calling, and finger-pointing.

[quote name='praxedes' post='1486978' date='Mar 28 2008, 04:02 PM']Anybody who thinks that religious life is easy, or that living in
community is a walk in the park doesn’t know what they are talking
about. Deigning to tell us with a condescending remark that “we” had
better get it together doesn’t work.[/quote]
Now I think you've lost me... we didn't tell religious to get it together! We asked all members of the vocation station (most of whom are not religious!) to remember what being a member of phatmass, and of the vocation station, is all about. How does that connect to telling you that religious life is easy?

[quote name='praxedes' post='1486978' date='Mar 28 2008, 04:02 PM']When you enter religious life, you
get what you get. Maybe …. an alcoholic, a passive-aggressive door
slammer, a caustic laundress, a bi-polar cellarer, a depressed choir
teacher. In religious life, once you say your yes (after final/solemn
vows that is!), you can’t pick up your toys and leave. You stay. You
learn to work it out. You learn to love your brothers and your sisters
in all of their frailty and with all of their faults.

And then you learn that the plank in your own eye was far, far larger
than that splinter in the eye of the other.[/quote]
And that's great! And if everyone on this board would speak to others as if they were aware of this, I should doubt we would have as many (or as great of) problems as we seem to be having.

again I will just say that this is not the moderators jumping at one little argument. there have been a number of "dramas" in vocation station over the years. we are simply taking some preventative measures. we understand that each person is entitled to his belief system and we do not attempt to subject anyone to our own personal beliefs. we do, however, hold each person on the phorum to a certain standard of charity and respect. this includes holding them accountable for having reasonable, productive [i]discussions[/i] (note i did not say arguments) about the issues of their choice.

to close, i would like to request that if you, in the future, have an issue you would like to take up with a moderator, please do so in private. it is in [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?act=boardrules"]the guidelines[/url] that public criticism of a moderator (or moderators) will result in a warning.

thank you.

[IcePrincessKRS]

Given the lengthy responses from two of our other moderators I'm going to keep mine brief. Action that has been taken to "shut down" threads has occurred because of a failure to follow the phorum guidelines (which have been linked twice now, but let me do it one more time for good measure: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?act=boardrules"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?act=boardrules[/url] ). The majority of threads closed has been because people can't seem to follow this simple rule:

[quote][b]Personal Attacks[/b]
A post or comment that has nothing to do with the topic, but is specifically meant to upset or criticize another person or group of people. This includes, but is not limited to, calling people "heretics" (used in a derogatory manner), "democrooks", etc.

"Never reprimand anyone while you feel provoked over a fault that has been committed. Wait until the next day, or even longer. Then make your remonstrance calmly and with a purified intention. You'll gain more with an affectionate word than you ever would from three hours of quarreling. Control your temper." - St Josemaria Escriva[/quote]

This rule is also breached far more often than it should be in this section of the phorum. I personally find it saddening that people who are supposed to be seeking a religious vocation find it so difficult to maintain charity in their discussions. I know we're all only human and we all make mistakes, but in my mind they are the ones we're supposed to look up to. Entering the Vocation Station is quite often disheartening because of the uncharitable bickering that tends to erupt.

[quote][quote]Catholic vs Catholic Debate[/quote]
A post or comment that results in doctrinal debates that might cause scandal among the faithful. *Effective immediately, [b]any negative criticism of religious or the current Magisterium will result in deletion, and a warning from the moderators.[/b] This includes but is not limited to criticism of the Novus Ordo mass and/or our Holy Father.[/quote]

Also, as Hughey pointed out, if you take issue with our decision to close or edit a post or thread privately message one of the moderators (preferably the one who made the edit) because calling us out publicly breaks this rule:

[quote][b]Public Criticism of Moderators[/b]
All criticism of moderators or administrators should be handled in private via e-mail or private messages. Any public posts will be deleted and a warning issued.[/quote]

No one likes being corrected or edited but if we all practiced a little more Christian charity on dealing with one another instead of resorting to insults we wouldn't have to use the moderator buttons nearly as often as we do. We are following guidelines dUSt has set out for us to follow, those he has posted for all phorum members to follow and rules that strictly apply to moderators. If you have a disagreement with how things are run take it up with the boss, or privately message a moderator and the mods, with dUSt included, can discuss it as a group--which is how we normally make our moderating decisions. Keeping this a happy place is a group effort and while its our job to "clean up the messes", its also part of y'all's job to try not to make messes.

[Veritas]

+

Hughey,

Thanks for taking the time to respond to this. You've done an excellent job. One thing that people who have been around phatmass for a while understand, is that we give people the benefit of the doubt and we recognize legitimate authority. I think those are two very, very good things, albeit counter-cultural. These are requisites of phatmass. Hopefully, some of the newbies, who are critical or doubtful of this process, will hang-back and give it a chance!

It seems to me too, that maybe we could stop being so critical and just start posting like we usually do about postulants, novices, community news, general discernment questions, fun/random polls, etc. It probably IS good for us to realize that VS is different from other phorums and different from other threads -it isn't, for example, debate station and it definitely isn't a place for personal put-downs.

One reason why phatmass is SO GREAT is because of the mods! They are active, they are astute, they are caring, and they are reliable. There are many, many other forums out there, which unceasingly resemble VS of the last few days, because there is no accountability. Let us PLEASE never devolve to a free for all in the name of "freedom".

Pax,
V

Edited March 29, 2008 by Veritas

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='Veritas' post='1487476' date='Mar 29 2008, 02:00 AM']+

Hughey,

Thanks for taking the time to respond to this. You've done an excellent job. One thing that people who have been around phatmass for a while understand, is that we give people the benefit of the doubt and we recognize legitimate authority. I think those are two very, very good things, albeit counter-cultural and requisites of phatmass. Hopefully, some of the newbies, who are critical or doubtful of this process, will hang-back and give it a chance! It seems to me too, that maybe we could stop being so critical and just start posting like we usually do about postulants, novices, community news, general discernment questions etc. It probably IS good for us to realize that VS is different from other phorums and different from other threads -it isn't, for example, debate station and it definitely isn't a place for personal put-downs.

Pax,
V[/quote]

[franciscanheart]

Thanks, V!

[Veritas]

[quote name='hugheyforlife' post='1487481' date='Mar 29 2008, 01:07 AM']Thanks, V! [/quote]

+

Edited March 29, 2008 by Veritas

[Guest Perpetualove]

Dear Sister Praxedes,

I would like to welcome you. I thought it was very interesting reading your thoughts and impressions. I'm sorry you are having a hard time or "struggling" - I will keep you in prayer. I hope that you will find some sense of support and companionship here. I can honestly tell you that I have made some wonderful friends through this forum, and I am very grateful for the support I have through the people here.

I look forward to more of your posts - thanks for your honesty and for jumping right in!

Again, you are in my prayers as you move forward in religious life. God bless and love you,

Perpetua

[EWIE]

There. I freely admit I've been uncharitable as hell, and I've done it deliberately.


Considering the guidlines for posting in this forum, (+charity and -swearing) I am truly surprised that this message was allowed and is still on the phorum.

[EWIE]

Thanks for the welcome. Anna, no problem. Ewie, I wrote to you privately but I'll give a quick recap for the people here. Just to clarify...my spiritual director gave me a list of websites/forums/discussion groups, etc.,


Dear Sister Praxedes,
Thank you for your encouraging message and for clarifying the advise of your SD.

PS.....Anna....I WISH I were Mother Praxedes at the Abbey of Regina Laudis! Great artist!

as is Mother Placid.
Magnificent stations of the cross, she did for the original chapel.