Why Do You Think Organized Religion Is Right?

[Deb]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1484658' date='Mar 26 2008, 10:48 AM']I want to hear why everybody here think any kind of organized religion is right?

Organized religion has lead to massacres, death, prejudice, plots of murder, and many other things. Millions of examples through out history?

Wouldn't it be better for people to not belong to a Religion and did things on their own, to learn about God, the universe, and themselves? Why do so many people pass the buck to 'more spiritual' leaders like the Pope? Shouldn't you work out [b]your[/b] salvation with fear and trembling?

The Pope is not going to get you into heaven. Only your trust in God and your reliance on the blood of Jesus?

Wouldn't the world be in a better place if there weren't Muslims, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, and the millions of religions out there? Why not just do what Jesus asked us to do, seek the Father with all our hearts, minds, strength, and soul?

Looking forward to your answers![/quote]

It seems to me that most of the problems that are currently destroying our world are because people are all going it alone. They have lost their sense of community and responsibility to each other as human beings and children of God. Those who have committed crimes and atrocities in the name of religion are not following their organized religion. I know of no organized religion that advocates the harm of others. Those who are evil will use the name of their religion to commit their crimes and they are solely responsible for them.

One cannot learn of anything on their own. Only the gift and grace of God will reveal his truth to you. That grace comes through the sacraments of the Catholic Church. One who believes that they themselves can interpret the bible on their own are geniuses. Those who think they can do anything at all in this life alone are geniuses. We are here to love one another and take care of one another and that is exactly what true Catholics are all about.

Dissing organized religion is just a cop out. I know. I did it for most of my life. It makes it so much easier to do what you want and convince yourself that what you do is okay.

If I believe in Jesus Christ, then for me, I have to believe in the church that he set up on this earth.
Matthew 16: 18-19 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."

In 1 Corinthians 14: v 26-28, the discussion is on prophecy and speaking in tongues and other chrisms. It says, "What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God. "

Strengthening the church. That is what we do when we belong. Over one billion Catholics go to mass around the world, their prayers are being offered up to God, their sacrifice to the Lord is pleasing to him and his grace flows throughout his churches. We are strengthened as children of God and as a community. We can go to any catholic church in the world, in any language, whether we speak it or not, and we know what is being said in the mass. We are united. We are following the precepts that the Lord and Peter, the first Pope, and the Apostles first laid down. It doesn't get any better than that.

You can go it alone. But, that is what you are, alone.

Edited April 9, 2008 by Deb

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='Deb' post='1495439' date='Apr 9 2008, 08:33 AM']It seems to me that most of the problems that are currently destroying our world are because people are all going it alone. They have lost their sense of community and responsibility to each other as human beings and children of God. Those who have committed crimes and atrocities in the name of religion are not following their organized religion. I know of no organized religion that advocates the harm of others. Those who are evil will use the name of their religion to commit their crimes and they are solely responsible for them.[/quote]

Actually, there was a news story I read about a Mormon minister who microwaved his baby because 'God' told him too. He was involved in an organized religion, and even a leader in it, but did that. Who was he listening too?

I don't really go it alone, I talk to many friends who believe in God all the time. Sometimes it is debating, sometimes it is just celebrating his grace, and sometimes it is just about what we learn about God.

[quote name='Deb' post='1495439' date='Apr 9 2008, 08:33 AM']One cannot learn of anything on their own. Only the gift and grace of God will reveal his truth to you.[/quote]

I agree the gift of grace allows us to learn about God.

[quote name='Deb' post='1495439' date='Apr 9 2008, 08:33 AM']That grace comes through the sacraments of the Catholic Church. One who believes that they themselves can interpret the bible on their own are geniuses.[/quote]

Ye of little faith. God can interpret his word for those willing to open their hearts.

[quote name='Deb' post='1495439' date='Apr 9 2008, 08:33 AM']Those who think they can do anything at all in this life alone are geniuses. We are here to love one another and take care of one another and that is exactly what true Catholics are all about.[/quote]

That is why I have friend who love God that I talk with all the time.

[quote name='Deb' post='1495439' date='Apr 9 2008, 08:33 AM']Dissing organized religion is just a cop out. I know. I did it for most of my life. It makes it so much easier to do what you want and convince yourself that what you do is okay.[/quote]

I don't convince myself that my sins are okay. In fact, now, my sins become even more serious in my eyes than ever before.

[quote name='Deb' post='1495439' date='Apr 9 2008, 08:33 AM']If I believe in Jesus Christ, then for me, I have to believe in the church that he set up on this earth.
Matthew 16: 18-19 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."[/quote]

So, you think that means Peter is the authority? The more I learn about God, the less I believe in my authority, or anybody's authority, and only Jesus has authority over the church. Peter has no authority in my eyes, and neither do the apostles, because they took their authority from Jesus only, so I want to be just like them, asking Jesus to be the only authority in my life. That's why they were the men who turned the world upside down.

[quote name='Deb' post='1495439' date='Apr 9 2008, 08:33 AM']In 1 Corinthians 14: v 26-28, the discussion is on prophecy and speaking in tongues and other chrisms. It says, "What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God. "[/quote]

As I said, I talk to friends who love God all the time. And there is a strengthening all the time, where we pray for and with each other all the time. It is marvelous.

[quote name='Deb' post='1495439' date='Apr 9 2008, 08:33 AM']Strengthening the church. That is what we do when we belong. Over one billion Catholics go to mass around the world, their prayers are being offered up to God, their sacrifice to the Lord is pleasing to him and his grace flows throughout his churches. We are strengthened as children of God and as a community. We can go to any catholic church in the world, in any language, whether we speak it or not, and we know what is being said in the mass. We are united. We are following the precepts that the Lord and Peter, the first Pope, and the Apostles first laid down. It doesn't get any better than that.[/quote]

But it can flow from friend to friend who doesn't go to church as well. If you think a billion Catholics make it to heaven, may I remind you broad is the way that leads to Hell. If you think straight and narrow means a billion people, you should take a class in Mathematics. Unless you are passionate about God, red hot - as Jesus said, he will spew people out.

[quote name='Deb' post='1495439' date='Apr 9 2008, 08:33 AM']You can go it alone. But, that is what you are, alone.[/quote]

I have plenty of friends that I share God with, so I am not alone. I just don't believe it should be messed up with organization, because when you organize something, you will get people who don't represent Christ right.

[dairygirl4u2c]

the mormon... who was he listening to... that's exactl the point. it wasn't the religion. it wasn't God. don't put the blame where it doens't belong. one might argue if he wsan't going it alone in fact, and listened to the Church, he'd be fine, but nope.

i think he's given plenty of reasons why going it alone is compelling. it's what i follow after all.

but with that said, he has not shown how organized religion is necessarily wrong. my beef with him has been that he seems to be suggesting that that's the case without discussing why, other than "people in organized religion has killed people" zombie response put on repeat.

[the 13th papist]

In all humility, Im not that smart. Its nice to have 2000 years of the worlds smartest and holiest people to refer to with my questions. I think alot of people who fancy themselves free thinkers might do well with a little more humility.

Edited April 9, 2008 by the 13th papist

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='the 13th papist' post='1495575' date='Apr 9 2008, 12:07 PM']In all humility, Im not that smart. Its nice to have 2000 years of the worlds smartest and holiest people to refer to with my questions.[/quote]

Don't let that lie enter your head again..

Psalm 139:14
I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

If you are a child of God, then that scripture is true about you. You know what is right and wrong, so don't let indoctrination tell you otherwise.

[Deb]

[quote name='the 13th papist' post='1495575' date='Apr 9 2008, 01:07 PM']In all humility, Im not that smart. Its nice to have 2000 years of the worlds smartest and holiest people to refer to with my questions.[/quote]

I am very smart and I still prefer to have 2000 years of the world's smartest and holiest people to interpret the Lord's word for me.
People have been trying to destroy the church since the beginning of time and Christ knew this would happen. He said he would build his rock on Peter and the gates of Hades would not overcome it.
I prefer to be a part of that church as Christ set it up. I prefer to receive the sacraments that Jesus Christ set up for us. The most precious is the Eucharist. This was not a parable, this was the truth for everlasting grace and life.

As Jesus said more than once, and as reported in John, "Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever."

I personally could not ever survive without the Eucharist. I went too many years of my life without it and now that I have had it, I want it every day. That alone will always keep me in the church.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1495561' date='Apr 9 2008, 05:47 PM']Actually, there was a news story I read about a Mormon minister who microwaved his baby because 'God' told him too. He was involved in an organized religion, and even a leader in it, but did that. Who was he listening too?[/quote]
Okay, but does the Mormon church advocate or condone the microwaving of babies? If not (and it doesn't), then this is not a valid argument against organised religion. It doesn't matter that he's a minister, as people sin & don't always follow their religion exactly. I also doubt that he did this [b]because [/b]of being in an organised religion, but instead has deeper issues.

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1495599' date='Apr 9 2008, 01:01 PM']Okay, but does the Mormon church advocate or condone the microwaving of babies? If not (and it doesn't), then this is not a valid argument against organised religion. It doesn't matter that he's a minister, as people sin & don't always follow their religion exactly. I also doubt that he did this [b]because [/b]of being in an organised religion, but instead has deeper issues.[/quote]

I use this as an example, because one of my 'protestant' friends said - it is better to follow Jesus Christ than a religion, after he read the article.

Don't you think it is better to follow Jesus Christ than to follow what a religion says? Or do you think every doctrine you have been given has been handed straight down from heaven for you?

[Galloglasses]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1495582' date='Apr 9 2008, 12:15 PM']If you are a child of God, then that scripture is true about you. You know what is right and wrong, so don't let indoctrination tell you otherwise.[/quote]

The Church doesn't tell you otherwise, she just celebrates those she knows to have done great things with their faith.
There are plenty of people who believe the Bible yet do horrible, horrible, horrible things with their faith because they interpreted it on their own.... The Westboro Baptists for example, (I will never forget that God Hates ireland site XD)

[Galloglasses]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1495601' date='Apr 9 2008, 01:03 PM']I use this as an example, because one of my 'protestant' friends said - it is better to follow Jesus Christ than a religion, after he read the article.

Don't you think it is better to follow Jesus Christ than to follow what a religion says? Or do you think every doctrine you have been given has been handed straight down from heaven for you?[/quote]

What makes you think you're so Holy that you can't go wrong if you interprit scripture on your own? Just because you're baptised, (which, btw, requires another person and a few witnesses for it to be legit which inadvertedly means you're part of a religion from the get go), doesn't mean you on your own are infallible. At least the Pope has the entire magisterium to consult and argue with.

Edited April 9, 2008 by Galloglasses

[Deb]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1495601' date='Apr 9 2008, 02:03 PM']I use this as an example, because one of my 'protestant' friends said - it is better to follow Jesus Christ than a religion, after he read the article.

Don't you think it is better to follow Jesus Christ than to follow what a religion says? Or do you think every doctrine you have been given has been handed straight down from heaven for you?[/quote]


I can't speak for other religion's but, the Catholic church is totally built around what Jesus Christ has said in the gospels. I believe the early church fathers who instituted the same mass the apostles had and same traditions they followed as Christ, through the Holy Spirit, had them do. Jesus said we were to eat his flesh and drink his blood. Now, if you have figured out a way to do that on your own, please, fill me in.

I also can't speak for other people but after 35 years of my going it alone, God himself pretty much told me to get with the program. He gave me the gift of faith and gave me the Catholic Church. I would love to see everyone there and I do pray for the souls of the unbelievers and for the conversion of the world but, I do not judge others on where they are at in their faith.

I need my church.

[scardella]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1495601' date='Apr 9 2008, 02:03 PM']Don't you think it is better to follow Jesus Christ than to follow what a religion says? Or do you think every doctrine you have been given has been handed straight down from heaven for you?[/quote]

My religion says follow Jesus Christ. Yes, I think that every dogma and doctrine (definitive statements of faith and morals) taught by the Catholic Church's Magisterium is contained within Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition, ie it has revealed by Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

Edited April 9, 2008 by scardella

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1495601' date='Apr 9 2008, 07:03 PM']I use this as an example, because one of my 'protestant' friends said - it is better to follow Jesus Christ than a religion, after he read the article.

Don't you think it is better to follow Jesus Christ than to follow what a religion says? Or do you think every doctrine you have been given has been handed straight down from heaven for you?[/quote]
First, you are assuming that following Jesus and being in an organised religion are mutually exclusive. Second, you didn't answer the question as to whether that man committed that act because of his religion, or if his religion even condones such acts.

As for the second part, Deb answered it very well. When I began examining Catholicism, I was struck by how Scriptural it all is. The parts of the Mass are based in Scripture, the various doctrines are either based in Scripture or Sacred Tradition (from which the Bible actually stems, as well). So, what I see is that the words of Christ match what the Catholic Church says, and so I follow the teachings of the Church in order to follow Christ.


[quote name='Deb' post='1495620' date='Apr 9 2008, 07:24 PM']I can't speak for other religion's but, the Catholic church is totally built around what Jesus Christ has said in the gospels. I believe the early church fathers who instituted the same mass the apostles had and same traditions they followed as Christ, through the Holy Spirit, had them do. Jesus said we were to eat his flesh and drink his blood. Now, if you have figured out a way to do that on your own, please, fill me in.
...
I need my church.[/quote]
Very well said, Deb. Amen.

[Galloglasses]

So is it fundamentally wrong, to you, that we wish to celebrate and worship God as a group, a family, then going lone wolf?

What about Jesus' prayer, 'Lord, that they may be one', this implies society or at the least community, humanity is a creature of order, God's order, we NEED order. Our communities need order. We need the Church.

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1495653' date='Apr 9 2008, 02:39 PM']So is it fundamentally wrong, to you, that we wish to celebrate and worship God as a group, a family, then going lone wolf?

What about Jesus' prayer, 'Lord, that they may be one', this implies society or at the least community, humanity is a creature of order, God's order, we NEED order. Our communities need order. We need the Church.[/quote]

I think God should be a friendship and family thing, and you talk about him with friends and family. Whens the last time your family broke open a bible and each of you read a chapter out of it, and then talk about it? Or is that forbidden by the CC?

I think there is a subtle balance between organization and independence. You can't have one without the other. Each part of the team is separate, but work in tandum, like how God has made billions of different life forms, but each gives back to each other, and makes all other pieces of life a possibility. But each kind of piece of life goes it alone. Sharks stick with sharks, humans with humans, bears with bears, eagles with eagles, ect, ect, ect. Or why would God have made such an example in the world, if he didn't want us to learn from that example, that God wants people to explore him on their own, and share with others, so that others can be blessed by him and what he has taught others.

Make one person overseer of the process will give the enemy an opportunity to mess things up. It should be friends and family sharing with each other, rather than one group saying how all others who don't belong to their group is wrong.