Why Do You Think Organized Religion Is Right?

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='Justin86' post='1493040' date='Apr 5 2008, 04:14 PM']If there is only one truth, then there is only one God. If this one God loves mankind it would make sense that He would put forth one way to Him. That one way is the Catholic Church.

Any questions? [/quote]

Then you haven't read scripture, for there is only one way to the father, and that is Jesus Christ. Not the church. Because according to your logic, anybody who is part of the Roman Catholic Church always goes to heaven. . .

What if an atheist came to CC, but didn't believe in Jesus? Would he go to heaven just because he went to a building?

The is only one way to the father and that is through the son. If you think the Catholic Church is the son, give me your links so I can check it out, and then I will argue each point.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1493319' date='Apr 6 2008, 03:22 AM']Then you haven't read scripture, for there is only one way to the father, and that is Jesus Christ. Not the church. Because according to your logic, anybody who is part of the Roman Catholic Church always goes to heaven. . .

What if an atheist came to CC, but didn't believe in Jesus? Would he go to heaven just because he went to a building?

The is only one way to the father and that is through the son. If you think the Catholic Church is the son, give me your links so I can check it out, and then I will argue each point.[/quote]
We certainly don't believe that someone gets to heaven only be virtue of their church membership. It is through the grace of God, by the sacrifice of Jesus, that anyone goes to Heaven. And Jesus gave us the Church, and he gives us His grace through the sacraments. You might want to look in the [url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm"]Catechism [/url](I believe Louisville Fan gave you the link in another thread, too).

As for the Bible, of course we believe it to be inspired by God, and that He also inspired men to decide which books belonged in the canon. But you must also realise that, prior to the canon being set, different congregations used different books, some of which are not considered canon (for example, some used the Didache). You seem to think that the Holy Spirit wouldn't work through a council to reveal what the set canon was to be. And of course, even the Bible says that it is the Church that is the pillar of truth (1 Tim 3:15).

[Galloglasses]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1493319' date='Apr 5 2008, 09:22 PM']Then you haven't read scripture, for there is only one way to the father, and that is Jesus Christ. Not the church. Because according to your logic, anybody who is part of the Roman Catholic Church always goes to heaven. . .

What if an atheist came to CC, but didn't believe in Jesus? Would he go to heaven just because he went to a building?

The is only one way to the father and that is through the son. If you think the Catholic Church is the son, give me your links so I can check it out, and then I will argue each point.[/quote]

[url="http://www.staycatholic.com/"]http://www.staycatholic.com/[/url]

Go nuts.


And I don't what it is about you, but your veiw of the Church is still VERY schewed, I think people in this thread have answered your question twice over by now.

[dairygirl4u2c]

so, sure if you want ot call the sinners who kill members of the whore, sure whatever, no one is going to necessarily disagree with you.

nice way to not touch the issue of the apostles i brought up. (assuming you read what i wrote i realize everyone's throwing points at you) and everything else.

[SanctitasDeo]

[quote]Whens the last time any of you stopped quoting doctrine, and show the cuddle with my weeble and wub of God to people?

That is my wish, to motivate some of you to stop quoting doctrine of this, that, and the other thing, and start sharing God's compassion, through Christ Jesus. Stop being religious, and start following Jesus Christ. He told you to go out into all the world and teach the nations? If you are his followers, why don't you teach the nations?

At least, I am trying to teach people something I have learned about God. When's the last time you have taught someone something you believe of God?[/quote]

Dude, if you would listen, that is what I have been doing. I have been trying to tell you something I believe of God. You have ignored pretty much everything I have said. It took you three pages to answer one question. Every time anyone brings up a good point, you ignore it. Each point you brought up has been answered.

You started this thread quoting doctrine and accusing everyone here of being self-righteous, blind murderers. Everyone reacted by trying to actually explain their doctrines. That makes some sense. And when you didn't know how to react to what people were saying, you changed tactics and started saying that you just want everyone to know Jesus Christ. You shouldn't start off in such an insulting way if you want people to listen to you.

The other thing you aren't listening to: I do show the l o v e of God to people, as best I can. People can be religious and still do this. I can follow Jesus Christ by being religious. Being religious doesn't mean everything that you think it does.

I am his follower, and I do teach the nations as best I can.

[quote]Organized religion doesn't stop someone from having a relationship with our Saviour, but don't rely on it. Be brave, and study and pray on your own, and test the spirits as you hear them.[/quote]

I don't think you understand me. I knew Jesus Christ first through prayer and personal study. But I feel his Spirit at church, testifying that the things I learn there are true. I felt his Spirit at my ordination and in the temple, testifying the same. I am not relying on organized religion at all for my personal relationship with Christ. I rely on him, on his word, on the priesthood he has given me, and on the ordinances which he gave to us in the New Testament.

[quote]For instance, as you can see in my thoughts in purgatory in another thread about justification and santification, I don't believe in purgatory, because it doesn't make sense when you think of what God has already done. If Jesus has taken away the sins of the world, then aren't my sins on him, and not me? Or was his sacrifice not perfect and now I have to spend time in purgatory (which I find is a contridiction of terms when I think of the after life, because past, present, and future are before the lord - which is why he is omniscient - but at the same time, how much time must I spend in purgatory to be cleansed, if there is no time in the after life?).[/quote]

I don't think you're talking to me here because I agree with you about purgatory.

[quote]On the bible, you guys don't understand how the spirit works do you. God impressed it on someones heart to write gospels and epistles and letters, and later, God impressed it on other people's hearts which books to include. God is the author of the book, not men. He decided what was going to be in the bible and got men to fall in line with his authority. Only Christ has authority over the church. He may have representatives on earth, but he is the authority, not men. Men do as he wills, not the other way around - with all the times men have said - this pagan festival becomes Christian now. King David would have destroyed the Pagans for the festivals they held, as were many good kings of Israel. And yet, after we have their examples of tearing down pagan altars, and God passing judgement of Pagan Kings, we have his 'representives' being like the first jews who came into the promise land, they were permissive of Pagans, and allowed them to keep their practices.[/quote]

I'm not going to claim to know wholly how the Spirit works. But I do know that you are right when you say that God did tell his Twelve Apostles and other representatives to write scripture. He may have even impressed the councils later to include certain books, though I don't think they included everything that they could have.

You are also right when you say that Christ is the authority, not men. However, he does delegate his authority to men in the form of priesthood, such as when he gave to Moses the power to part the Red Sea, or to Elijah to put down the false priesthood of the men of Baal.

[quote]The fact you keep on saying, at this time men choose the books of the Bible kinda takes God out of the equation, so what books should I read, and what books shouldn't I read, because some or all might not have been God's choices for his word!

You will at least conceed that argument for the divine authority of God's word.[/quote]

Men did choose the books of the Bible. God may have inspired them. I know by the Spirit that the books in the Bible are true. I also know that there are books that were not chosen for the Bible that contain truth. I do not conceed that the Bible has any divine authority, however. God has the divine authority. Christ has that divine authority. But the Bible does contain truth.

I would think, the best way for Christianity to flourish again, especially during the end times, is to make it a family affair with Jesus. It should only be done at home, with a few families gathering together.

[quote]The problem with today is there is not enough of what I would call good men of God. Of all the people I have gone to church with there is only one man I would say is a man of God, because no matter what sermon he would give, it was always about Christ Crucified. It was about the Give me your money and God gives back. It was about - Conservatives are good and Liberals are bad. It was about nonsense. It was about God's sacrifice on the Cross - always moved my heart to repent of my sins, and seek God's forgiveness.[/quote]

I know many good men of God. I must be fortunate, then. Also, I am glad that I never hear sermons about politics at church. Politics are all well and good. It is admirable to try to make good moral policy. But church should be a place of learning of Christ.

[quote]To me, church really is a place where self-righteous people go to think they are doing the right thing, while letting the world die outside.[/quote]

To me, church is really a place where imperfect sinners come to learn of the things of Christ in humility, to partake of the bread and water of His sacrament, as he commanded, and to commune in fellowship with other Christians.

Sadly, some people are self-righteous. But no one is perfect. Therefore no church composed of people is perfect, save through the blood of Christ. I believe that Christ did establish a church here on the earth. I believe that it is kept free of corruption by continual revelation from above.

I'm sorry that I can't continue this conversation. Tonight I will be set apart as a missionary, and I will essentially take temporary vows to do nothing that will distract me from the work on which I am sent. So I won't be on this forum at all for a while.

Good luck in your search, and may you find what you are looking for.

And to the rest of you: thank you for making this forum an interesting place. I've learned quite a bit more about Catholics and Catholicism than I did before I came here. I don't share many of your beliefs, but I can respect them.

Godspeed.

p.s Jesusismysuperhero: I really was curious about how you reconcile Paul's words about bishops with your anarchic theology. If you post again before 6 or 7 tonight, could you explain that?

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

Sorry for not answering your questions. Hard to read through message board forum posts.

Let me see if I can answer each one as best as I can.

[quote name='SanctitasDeo' post='1487470' date='Mar 28 2008, 11:50 PM']Are you seriously arguing that the celebration of Christmas is a moral issue?[/quote]

Yes.

[quote name='SanctitasDeo' post='1487470' date='Mar 28 2008, 11:50 PM']Do you really think that the replacement of a pagan holiday with a Christian one is something to argue about?[/quote]

Considering there are examples in the Bible where the Jews destroyed pagan altars and were told by God not to conform to their custom, why has God changed in his attitude? If he hates pagan festivals to the point to say to his people destroy altars and not to involve themselves in them, why has he changed now? God doesn't change, so that is an argument you have to answer. Puritans were persucuted by the Catholic Church because they wouldn't accept Yule as a Christian Holiday.

[quote name='SanctitasDeo' post='1487470' date='Mar 28 2008, 11:50 PM']Is that really something that all right-thinking people should oppose?[/quote]

That sounds like 1984? What is a right-thinking person? Because I don't like the fact that the Catholic Church instituted Yule as a Christian Holiday by calling it Christmas means that I am not a right-thinking person. Is that what you are saying?

Being different doesn't mean what you are intimating there.

[quote name='SanctitasDeo' post='1487470' date='Mar 28 2008, 11:50 PM']What about WWI and II or maybe Communism? I've heard all three blamed on Catholics by 'right-thinking' protestants and non-denominationalists and so forth.[/quote]

They're pretty much religious bigots, if they blame all the world's problems on one organization. There is just quite a few organizations all doing the wrong thing making the world the way it is. The Mystery of Babylon killed the Prophets and is guilty of all murders, and to my knowledge, the Catholic Church wasn't around back when Abel and the Prophets were around.

[quote name='SanctitasDeo' post='1487470' date='Mar 28 2008, 11:50 PM']I think that by your logic, anyone who follows doctrines associated with Luther should also be blamed for his blatant disregard for the poor peasants of his time, who, realizing that they should be free of the unholy authority of their feudal masters, set out to free themselves. He wrote a book urging that they all be killed. They were. He misused the influence he had over the nobility of Germany, thus all his intellectual legacy should be blemished.[/quote]

If he did (please supply sources), then I agree, he should be considered guilty of that kind of evil.

[quote name='SanctitasDeo' post='1487470' date='Mar 28 2008, 11:50 PM']Oh, and I don't hate, appreciate to say this, but God has condoned murder somewhat similar to the Inquisition in the past. If you have read the bible cover to cover, you must remember all those commandments to Israel to slay all them who are not Israel.[/quote]

Yes I have, and I would consider the people in the promise land who threw babies into fire horrible, and should be brought to justice. I also believe people who rape children should have the same fate handed to them right now. Nothing is more important to make sure children are protected, as they are our future. Anybody selling drugs, raping or murdering young children should be brought to justice. Jesus said it is better that a 100 pound weight would be placed on their necks and to be thrown in the deepest oceans.

[quote name='SanctitasDeo' post='1487470' date='Mar 28 2008, 11:50 PM']You never did address anything that I said earlier. I still want to know why my belonging to an organized religion stops me from being able to get down on my own knees and know God through prayer and scripture study. The leaders of my church don't intercede any way on my behalf. I work out my salvation with fear and trembling. And I am as much a priest of God as they are. They just have the keys to administer to the world.[/quote]

It doesn't, but you need to accept that God's children come in all sorts of shapes and sizes. In a world where there are billions of types of life that he has created - and yet all work together for each other's benefit, why can't his church also be like that.

Just do put your trust in a church, but in God's son. You can't have trust in both.

[Brother Adam]

[quote]Considering there are examples in the Bible where the Jews destroyed pagan altars and were told by God not to conform to their custom, why has God changed in his attitude?[/quote]

This is why I don't understand Protestantism. There is a massive difference between actually taking part in paganism and offering a Christian alternative to something that is pagan. Protestants do it all the time. Super Bowl parties at church, contemporary Christian music, Christian skate parks, etc. How is the Feast of the Nativity of the Lord in any way pagan? Please, point anything out about the rite, the Gospel readings, the blessing, that it's pagan.

[quote]Jesus said it is better that a 100 pound weight would be placed on their necks and to be thrown in the deepest oceans.[/quote]

You are misquoting scripture. The passage, Matthew 18:6, warns against causing "little ones to sin". Did you know heresy and apostasy are a sin? That means if you teach others heresy or to abandon the Church Christ founded, you fall under Jesus' condemnation. Do you really trust in yourself that much?

[quote]Just do put your trust in a church, but in God's son. You can't have trust in both.[/quote]

God told us to trust his Church. Really. It's in the Bible.

1 Timothy 3:15. So if you trust in God's Son, you trust in His Church.

[Archaeology cat]

JesusIsMySuperHero,

Would you mind giving references for Catholics persecuting Puritans because of their refusal to celebrate Christmas? And as far as I can see, the Puritans were against Christmas not because of it having supplanted a pagan festival (note that it is not the celebration of a pagan festival), but because of the tendency (in England, at least) for people to get drunk during the celebration of the 12 days of Christmas. When Oliver Cromwell came to power, he outlawed the celebration of Christmas, and enforced that. So it seems like just the opposite of what you said occurred. I don't doubt that there would have been some backlash after Cromwell's death, when the monarchy was reinstated, but it doesn't seem to match the claims you're making. When I look at more recent arguments against Christmas, it is centred on Christmas not being celebrated in the Bible. Of course, it makes no sense to be sola scriptura (see the Scripture referenced in Bro Adam's post, 1 Tim 3:15), but that's another debate. But again, I see nothing of Catholics persecuting Puritans for not celebrating Christmas, so I would appreciate seeing credible sources in case I missed something.

God bless.

Edited April 7, 2008 by Archaeology cat

[dairygirl4u2c]

so what he's saying is pretty much akin to.... "i'm not christian because chrisitans have killed and you know hte fruits by the spirit" i do concede the popes should have stopped hte killings, but one could argue chrisitains could stop many atrocities but don't.

here is what it's like diaglouging with him.

"i'm not chrisitan because christians have murdered"
"yes, but not all christians kill, and chrisitainty teaches that you don't murder"
"i'm not chrisitan because chrisitans have murdered"
"and even if chrisitans could have and didn't do something when they should have, they didn't do it, and should have known better, they are sinners after all"
"i'm not christian because chrisitans have murdered"
"so are you saying that the apostles were incapable of murder? and judas doesn't count? and what about that the ible is full of the aposltes' sins? or, are you saying you wouldn't have followed them had they killed? i don't think either makes much sense... how do you justify this?"
"i'm not christian because chrisitans have murdered"
*nods and walks away...

he's bordering on obstinency and feigned ignorance. only repsonding to weak points to justify the straw man he's created. definitely not personally responsible. shake the dust (the ultra-handsome) (the ultra-handsome) (the ultra-handsome) (the ultra-handsome) (the ultra-handsome) (the ultra-handsome) from your shoes and move on, i say.

Edited April 7, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1494098' date='Apr 7 2008, 08:41 AM']...
he's bordering on obstinency and feigned ignorance. only repsonding to weak points to justify the straw man he's created. definitely not personally responsible. shake the dust (the ultra-handsome) (the ultra-handsome) (the ultra-handsome) (the ultra-handsome) (the ultra-handsome) (the ultra-handsome) (the ultra-handsome) from your shoes and move on, i say.[/quote]

Dang, Dairy. You got a tripple whammy with the April Fool's fiddler.

[dairygirl4u2c]

try typing dust (the ultra-handsome) (the ultra-handsome) and see what happens.
then try editing it.
then to experiment as i did, try editing again to see if your eyes aren't playing games on you. and then try again to see if it'll add more etc etc.

Edited April 8, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[jeffpugh]

I know, I know. If you venture out side of the debate board, you'd see there is delegation about dust (the ultra-handsome) changing the filters back. I mentioned your post specifically as a reason why to change it. Anywho, continue on, people.

[dairygirl4u2c]

well, i for one don't mind it, but that's just me...

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='Brother Adam' post='1494054' date='Apr 6 2008, 11:43 PM']This is why I don't understand Protestantism. There is a massive difference between actually taking part in paganism and offering a Christian alternative to something that is pagan. Protestants do it all the time. Super Bowl parties at church, contemporary Christian music, Christian skate parks, etc. How is the Feast of the Nativity of the Lord in any way pagan? Please, point anything out about the rite, the Gospel readings, the blessing, that it's pagan.
You are misquoting scripture. The passage, Matthew 18:6, warns against causing "little ones to sin". Did you know heresy and apostasy are a sin? That means if you teach others heresy or to abandon the Church Christ founded, you fall under Jesus' condemnation. Do you really trust in yourself that much?
God told us to trust his Church. Really. It's in the Bible.

1 Timothy 3:15. So if you trust in God's Son, you trust in His Church.[/quote]

The way you misquote me is kinda disturbing friend. I've only seen someone take half quotes a few times, and it is always to make someone look bad. You have broken a commandment with this post, as leaving only bits and pieces of what I wrote has brought a false witness against me. I would repent of your sin there, because God takes false testimony seriously.

I guess you don't want to put up the fact I say, anybody who has raped children should have a hundred pound weight put upon them and thrown in the deepest oceans. Or do you condone child rape and child pornography?

I don't put any trust in myself at all Brother Adam, because there is nothing I can do without Jesus. I only put my trust in him. He will keep me from death and hell, despite your feigned self-righteousness.

All I have to say is, if I am wrong, let the lord judge me for my wrongs. I am more than willing to let his whip teach me how to live, for I love my lord's rebuke, for it is a saving rebuke. I love his discipline. I have had to do some very hard things, because God told me it was not time to something I wanted, and it always leaves a pit in my stomach. But I know it is what is best for me, and I will gratefully accept it.

[scardella]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1492857' date='Apr 4 2008, 11:29 PM']Wisdom states, evil trees can only produce evil, and good trees can only produce good fruit. Are you telling me Jesus is a liar, because what you are saying, sometimes good trees can produce evil fruit.[/quote]

The Body of Christ (aka the Church) always produces good fruit. The Church in its fullness is the Catholic Church. The Popes of the Catholic Church go back to Peter, and the bishops of the Catholic Church go back to the Apostles. As was said many times before, there was definite structure in Jesus' organization of His disciples and in the early Church after the Resurrection.

You are failing to make a distinction between actions of the Church and Her members. Her members are sinful men in need of a savior. They commit many sins, sometimes falsely using religion as a cloak. The Church itself, however, is without spot or blemish. The Church is the bride and Jesus is the bridegroom of Revelations.

In another bit of Scripture, Paul writes that Jesus is the head and the Church is the body. Can the body be in union with the head, while the body is defiled and the head is not? NO. Thus, the Church is not defiled, because she is in union with the head, Jesus Christ. You should also note that Paul refers to the members of the Church in terms of hands, feet, eyes, etc. in 1 Cor 12. These are specific structures within the human body that have unique purposes. As a matter of fact, the human body is a wonderfully complex structure, not an amorphous blob of cells. By making reference to the different roles that people play within the Body of Christ, Paul is making the case indirectly that the Church has structures supported by the different roles that members make within that Body. Roles=structure.

[quote]However, some religious bigots took it upon themselves to 'punish' protestants and jews and other non-believers. Can you see what I am going with that. For sure, there is a spirit of religion out there that masqurades as the spirit of God, convincing men and women to commit evil deeds because their religion is the truth.[/quote]

You have to prove that the religion itself is promoting evil deeds, and that's a doctrinal issue. [b]And since different religions promote wildly different things, you have to do it on a religion-by-religion basis.[/b]

[quote]But your answer gives away something I have been saying. [color="red"]I don't point any fingers at any one particular religion, but at them all.[/color] What right did the religious bigot Muslims have to kill honest men and women who wanted to go the the holy land to trace the foot steps of Jesus?[/quote]

Why? You have not proven that organized religion, [b]because[/b] it is organized religion, is somehow evil.

[quote]In a way, that is true. But that would require all of us to be automatons, thinking and acting like the Borg. I believe we can all believe a few fundamental truths, and yet debate over Purgatory. I don't personally believe in it, because Jesus' blood takes me straight to heaven, and I have been made whiter than snow. However, believing in purgatory doesn't mean you can't agree with me that Jesus' death saved us from sin? Lets agree to that.[/quote]

Actually, it would not require us to be automatons. We are not automatons because we all believe that 1+1=2. In fact, we would think someone ridiculous if they did not believe that. In the same way, we can all safely agree that WWII happened. To think otherwise would be ignoring a vast mountain of evidence.

If people believe the same thing, based on faith and reason, why would that make them like the borg?

[quote]I don't believe that. I don't believe we all have to believe every single thing that the others believe to be saved, except one thing - Jesus Christ died for our sins.

It is true people can be deceived by spirits posing as God. I know I have in my life. But that goes as far in the religious world as the non-religious world as well. Spirits certainly inspired the Muslims in the Crusades, some Catholics in the inquisitions, Popes burning people at the stake for standing against indulgences and Yule, and cult leaders in the Muslim faith who convinced men to slam planes into building. So, if spirits can convince people their religion is right to commit atrocities, why be a follower of a religion, when we can be followers of Jesus only.
But the authority isn't just with the Apostles. Actually, the more I learn about Jesus, really - he's the authority, not the Apostles. Great men of God, but they were not the authority. They were the foundation, but only Jesus is the head of the church, not Peter, not the Apostles, not the descendants of the apostles. Jesus is the only head of the church, and he doesn't need apostles or prophets any more, because his spirit can lie inside each of us.[/quote]


[quote]You should open your bible and read Revelation 14-21. I'll give you a head start.[/quote]

As a "good form" note, don't make huge quotes, whether from Scripture or other authors. It completely muddles your point. Secondly, I have read the Bible from cover to cover. Don't assume that we're not familiar with Scripture.