Why Do You Think Organized Religion Is Right?

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1488388' date='Mar 29 2008, 07:45 PM']Also, what if, hypothetically, Jesus did leave a physical church, beyond one where everyone does their own thing in the name of personally responsible.

Would they be expected to be perfect? No. no reasonable person would expect that.

would you have stopped following Jesus, or at least stopped following him with the other apostles, when you saw how sinful his apostles were, including Peter? Peter denied Jesus. Thomas doubted him. (not even getting into Judas) Peter didn't sit with the Jews when he should have at dinner. These are just off the top of my head.

again, it seems like a cop out ot point to the bad people within the church, instead of dealing with the issues of the church itself.[/quote]

Let me address this.

Although you are correct, no person is perfect, and no leadership is perfect. But when leadership of a religion or organization has gone too far, shouldn't people have the right to stand against it? Kings were murdered during the French revolution because they treated their people like scum.

People are right about me not understanding indulgences and purgatory. Frankly, I don't want to complicate my understanding of God.

God sent his son who died on the cross and now is seated on the right hand of God (meaning power and authority of God) on the throne. I believe Jesus died on the cross for my sins. I have repented of my sins, and he has been faithful and just to forgive me of my sins, as he did on earth. I can cleaned, of all my blood guiltness of my sins, and when I die, the Father will not see my sins, but see the blood which has made me whiter than snow.

All I am saying really is, don't take any man's word for anything, check it out on your own, and seek the spirit of God, because it can't lead you to anything but the truth.

To be perfectly honest, none of you knew what Scripture I was even hinting at when I wrote this topic.

Jesus said, good trees can only produce good fruit, and evil trees can only produce evil fruit. So if you have an organization that gave Popes the power to religiously convice millions to go forward with the Inquisitions, than how can that organization be the good tree Jesus planted? It could only be something that replaced that. Even the very first act after Constantine wrought to organization the Roman Catholic church under a state religion was the deaths of millions who thought differently. He was more concerned about how to keep peace his kingdom, than being lead by the holy spirit.

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='scardella' post='1487467' date='Mar 28 2008, 11:46 PM']The Church does not murder people nor does it condone it. Perhaps other religions do. Furthermore, you are failing to distinguish between legitimate use of something and illegitimate use. Because something is used improperly does not make it inherently bad. You are drawing the incorrect conclusion that because some organizations have committed evil things at some times, that organizations, as such, are evil. This is a logical fallacy.
This is another logical fallacy. Emotional appeal. However, I shall address each of those points that regard Christianity.[/quote]

Wisdom states, evil trees can only produce evil, and good trees can only produce good fruit. Are you telling me Jesus is a liar, because what you are saying, sometimes good trees can produce evil fruit.

[quote name='scardella' post='1487467' date='Mar 28 2008, 11:46 PM']1. The Inquisition: this was not sponsored by the Church. This was not administered by the Church. This was not condoned by the Church. However, some Catholic clergy did participate.[/quote]

I will check that out, any good books your recommend on that subject?

However, some religious bigots took it upon themselves to 'punish' protestants and jews and other non-believers. Can you see what I am going with that. For sure, there is a spirit of religion out there that masqurades as the spirit of God, convincing men and women to commit evil deeds because their religion is the truth.

[quote name='scardella' post='1487467' date='Mar 28 2008, 11:46 PM']2. Crusades: These were originally about creating a safe passageway to the Holy Land from Europe. It was not about killing the Turks. The Church did not say, "Lets go kill the Muslims!"


Pilgrims were increasingly being harrassed, killed, etc. by the Muslims, and this was in response. There were some crusades that were more secular in nature that were not sanctioned by the Church.[/quote]

But your answer gives away something I have been saying. I don't point any fingers at any one particular religion, but at them all. What right did the religious bigot Muslims have to kill honest men and women who wanted to go the the holy land to trace the foot steps of Jesus?

[quote name='scardella' post='1487467' date='Mar 28 2008, 11:46 PM']How far would you go to prove your religion right? I'll pick up my cross and follow Jesus through the Church that He founded.[/quote]

I don't have a religion, only faith in Jesus. I would die for him, if I felt in the holy spirit, it was my time to go back to my father.

[quote name='scardella' post='1487467' date='Mar 28 2008, 11:46 PM']I do think it(the Bible) is a source (not the only source) of sound doctrine. However, I acknowledge that I am full of error and prejudice myself, and acknowledge that multiple people can have very widely differing interpretations of the same text. Being that Jesus implored us to be one, the only way for us to truly be united in faith is if we believe the same thing.[/quote]

In a way, that is true. But that would require all of us to be automatons, thinking and acting like the Borg. I believe we can all believe a few fundemental truths, and yet debate over Purgatory. I don't personally believe in it, because Jesus' blood takes me straight to heaven, and I have been made whiter than snow. However, believing in purgatory doesn't mean you can't agree with me that Jesus' death saved us from sin? Lets agree to that.

[quote name='scardella' post='1487467' date='Mar 28 2008, 11:46 PM']The only way to guarantee that we believe the same thing is to create an authority that protects the validity of the text and the interpretation of the text.[/quote]

I don't believe that. I don't believe we all have to believe every single thing that the others believe to be saved, except one thing - Jesus Christ died for our sins.

It is true people can be deceived by spirits posing as God. I know I have in my life. But that goes as far in the religious world as the non-religious world as well. Spirits certainly inspired the Muslims in the Crusades, some Catholics in the inquisitions, Popes burning people at the stake for standing against indulgences and Yule, and cult leaders in the Muslim faith who convinced men to slam planes into building. So, if spirits can convince people their religion is right to commit atrocities, why be a follower of a religion, when we can be followers of Jesus only.

[quote name='scardella' post='1487467' date='Mar 28 2008, 11:46 PM']The authority that Jesus established were the Apostles with Peter as the rock. Those Apostles have been succeeded through the generations to the people we now call bishops and Peter has been succeeded through the generations (in an unbroken line, mind you) to the person we now call the pope. They have been given that power and responsibility to protect and promulgate that very faith that Jesus taught.[/quote]

But the authority isn't just with the Apostles. Actually, the more I learn about Jesus, really - he's the authority, not the Apostles. Great men of God, but they were not the authority. They were the foundation, but only Jesus is the head of the church, not Peter, not the Apostles, not the descendants of the apostles. Jesus is the only head of the church, and he doesn't need apostles or prophets any more, because his spirit can lie inside each of us.

[quote name='scardella' post='1487467' date='Mar 28 2008, 11:46 PM']What are you talking about? BTW, where is the "Babylon System" in the bible?[/quote]

You should open your bible and read Revelation 14-21. I'll give you a head start.

1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

6And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

7Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

8And there followed another angel, saying, [b]Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.[/b]

Notice how it says, all nations. That means the system controls just about everything.

9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

13And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

14And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

20And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
Revelation 15

1And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

2And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

4Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

5And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:

6And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

7And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

8And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.
Revelation 16

1And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

2And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

3And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

4And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.

5And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.

6For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

7And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.

8And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.

9And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

10And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

11And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

12And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

13And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

17And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

18And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

19And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and [b]great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.[/b]

20And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

21And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
Revelation 17

[b]1And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

2With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

3So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

4And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

5And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.[/b]

All kings have drank of wine of her fornication. That is the blood of the saints, and the martyrs of Jesus.

6And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

7And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

8The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

9And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

10And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

11And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

12And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

15And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

16And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall don't hate, appreciate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

17For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

18And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
Revelation 18

1And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.

2And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

3For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

5For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

6Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

7How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

8Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

9And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

10Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

11And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

12The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,

13And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.

14And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.

15The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,

16And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

17For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,

18And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

19And they cast dust (the ultra-handsome) on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

20Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

21And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

22And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;

23And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

24And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Revelation 19

1And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Revelation 20

1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21

1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

6And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

9And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

10And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

12And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

13On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

14And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

16And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

17And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

18And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

19And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

20The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.

21And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

22And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

25And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

26And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

27And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

[quote name='scardella' post='1487467' date='Mar 28 2008, 11:46 PM']Honestly, after reading what you have written, I believe that you have a specific axe to grind against the Church, and that you're simply using the "organized religion" as a sham argument to cover up some pain or guilt.

Why are you maligning the Church that Jesus founded?[/quote]
I am not maligning the Catholic Church. I am not even catholic, or raised catholic. I just don't agree with what it has to be say, as it has always been lead by people who were more concerned with power than the holy spirit.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1492857' date='Apr 5 2008, 04:29 AM']However, some religious bigots took it upon themselves to 'punish' protestants and jews and other non-believers. Can you see what I am going with that. For sure, there is a spirit of religion out there that masqurades as the spirit of God, convincing men and women to commit evil deeds because their religion is the truth.[/quote]
That isn't really the question, though. In any group of people, of any affiliation, there will be some who do not follow all the tenets of that group, and who may even go radically against it. There will be some who even teach something contrary to that group. That does not mean that the organisation itself is calling for such things. The Catholic Church herself does not condone murder, and has always considered murder to be a mortal sin. Have Catholics murdered? Yes. Some perhaps even said they were doing it for the Church. But the point remains that the Church has never taught that it is alright to murder. Thus that argument cannot be used against her.

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1492857' date='Apr 5 2008, 04:29 AM']Popes burning people at the stake for standing against indulgences and Yule,[/quote]
May I ask for a reference for this? It was the selling of indulgences that was wrong (not indulgences themselves), and the Church never taught that it was alright to sell indulgences. There is also nothing stating that popes will be sinless. As we know, even Peter denied Christ. But the Pope cannot [b]teach [/b]error in matters of faith and morals.

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1492857' date='Apr 5 2008, 04:29 AM']So, if spirits can convince people their religion is right to commit atrocities, why be a follower of a religion, when we can be followers of Jesus only.[/quote]
What is to stop that lone follower from being led astray by a spirit?

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1492857' date='Apr 5 2008, 04:29 AM']But the authority isn't just with the Apostles. Actually, the more I learn about Jesus, really - he's the authority, not the Apostles. Great men of God, but they were not the authority. They were the [b][color="#FF0000"]foundation[/color][/b], but only Jesus is the head of the church, not Peter, not the Apostles, not the descendants of the apostles. Jesus is the only head of the church, and he doesn't need apostles or prophets any more, because his spirit can lie inside each of us.[/quote]
Catholics believe that Jesus is the Head of the Church. And yes, the Apostles are the foundation. The Church was [b]founded [/b]specifically on Peter, and continued in the papacy. I must ask, though, why you would say there is no need of apostles anymore. If that were the case, why did Jesus have apostles in the first place? Surely it would make no sense to create some kind of organisation, and then not expect it to continue? And yes, the apostles, disciples, and early Church were quite organised. Today I read in Acts 6 about the apostles choosing certain people to perform certain tasks. Division of labour is a sign of an organised society. And of course Paul speaks about church organisation as well. I'd recommend reading the section of church organisation in the book Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic (a good read, in my opinion).

Edited April 5, 2008 by Archaeology cat

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1492830' date='Apr 5 2008, 04:34 AM']First, I follow the man Jesus Christ daily. That's the only man I follow. I don't care for politicians, religious leaders, or anybody else. If the Apostles just followed Jesus, so will I. I'll take their example, and not anybody elses. If other people decide to do wickedly, the bible tells me let the wicked be wicked and just be just. I will stand up and die for Jesus.[/quote]

Ah, so you are prepared to accept the [i]Bible[/i] as your authority.

Did that Bible fall down from Heaven ready-bound in a nice little book?

No.

The different books of the Bible were examined and judged to be part of the Scriptural canon during the Council of Nicea, a council that was convened by a Catholic pope and composed of Catholic bishops. Without that council, that [i]Catholic[/i] council, you would have no Bible to read. People would still be confused over which books to accept and which books to reject. This is solid, irrefutable, historical [i]fact[/i].

[quote]Do you even know when God is talking to you, or when it is you thinking, or when the devil is whispering lies in your ears?[/quote]

You apparently make that claim for yourself, which means that you are part of an organised religion whether you like it or not. It's just that you are the only one doing the organising and making the decisions about what you want to believe and what you don't want to believe. It's like picking and choosing sweets and chocolate from a sweet counter.

Your argument about the good fruit and the bad fruit is also flawed. By that logic, any Christian who has ever committed a sin since joining the faith (i.e. all of us) can't really be following Jesus. This kind of superficial interpretation is what you end up with when people decide that they need to interpret the Bible 'personally'.

[dairygirl4u2c]

it still seems to me you're playing games to get out of really examing the teachings of the church.

also, you still push about killings of the church. you didn't really address the hypothetical of Jesus' followers.... is it okay that the apostles never killed anyone, that their sins were only a lesser degree of bad? a tree by their fruits... they were sinners too, and could be argued bad fruit. was it impossible for the apostles to have killed then? how is judas an exception given hat he did? so if not impossible for the apostles to have killed, but had they killed, would they have been a group that you would not have followed because of their sins? your argument from this perspective doesn't really add up to much. if the CC was constantly bad, you might have something, but it's not, as a people. so either you're claiming the apostles, more acurrately and their followers, could not have killed.... or you're arguing you wouldn't have followed that group back then if they had.... neither of which make much sense.

ie the popes never killed people in the inquisitions much, it was that they didn't do anything when they should have. even if the popes did tough kill, it was not a teaching of fraith and morals, but only them being sinners, as the apostles were sinners. plus, most of the time, the church does good, and has only those few time in history it's been bad.

if jesus did leave a physical church, i wouldn't expect anything less than it being full of sins, while generally good fruits,,,, somehting that characterize the CC and teachings and its impact on the world beyond the isolated events ofthe inquisitions etc.
i would expect though in that church, consistency in teachings. again, the issues you seem to intent to avoid.

just because teachings are complicated, like purgatory, doesn't mean it's not from God. any simple teaching can be complicated. surely you respect christians who are theologians, reasoning from scriptures etc. that could be applied to the catholic church. no catholic has to live a life of understanding complications, they are only to live a life obedient to Jesus and the bible and arguably to them his Church. the complications are only there if you are a christian want a deeper understanding. biblical theology can be deep, you would i'm sure agree.
if you think purgatory is bad in terms of denying the salvic work of Jesus, then you better discuss it, cause you're arguemnt can't just be that you assume that's true.... you're presupposing an assumption that you could only know properly by discussing it.
so, you ahve not proven purgatory wrong or anything else, you've only proven you don't want to think about it.

it's a cop out to say no one knew what scriptures you were talking about, probably only no one has responded to them. a tree by their fruits scripture is read in catholic churches. the whore of babylon passage is lodged against that church all the time, especially here. people here are some of the best knowledgeable people i know about the bible.
www.scripturecatholic.com
i know i'm not speaking only for myself when i say every passage you've cited is familiar.
you can play stereotypes but it's not reality. maybe you're not experience enough wiht catholics to know they know the bible, often. not all christians know the bible either... only those who know better do.

the whore of babylon... is sort of a backhanded compliment to the church, to those who argue it at first. cause it's not true, but at least they recognize that the church has something to it... even if it's bad, it's at least aknoweledged there' soeting. then, if seens that that argument doens't work, then that something turns into what if... what if it's true.
kinda like how don't don't hate, appreciate, appreciate is in many ways better than indifference, cause at least there's passion there, and if don't don't hate, appreciate, appreciate is gone, it has much potential to it.

don't just read the quote, but read the link too:
[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/whore_of_babylon.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/whore_of_babylon.asp[/url]
-This passage gives us one reason why the Catholic Church cannot be the Whore. We are told that the heads "are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come." If five of these kings had fallen in John’s day and one of them was still in existence, then the Whore must have existed in John’s day. Yet Christian Rome and Vatican City did not. However, pagan Rome did have a line of emperors, and the majority of commentators see this as the line of kings to which 17:10 refers. Five of these emperors are referred to as having already fallen, one as still reigning in John’s time, and another yet to come. Since Jerusalem had no such line of kings in the first century, this gives us evidence that the Beast (though not the Whore) is Rome.

the CC is almost certainly not babylon the whore. yet, you will proably just ignore this issue, like you ignored purgatory, and go on takign superficial strikes instead of personally reasponsible tackling hte issues. instead, you will go on about the occasional bad fruits, that even the apostles had and any church of God would have, and so isn't really even an argument at all.

Edited April 5, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1492836' date='Apr 4 2008, 11:47 PM']People are right about me not understanding indulgences and purgatory. Frankly, I don't want to complicate my understanding of God.[/quote]

Is it really complicating things or helping you arrive at a greater understanding of something you, yourself admit, you are not entirely clear on? The simple answer is not always the right one.

And, I am surprised no one picked up on this, but under the "intellectual" front about organized religion you are exposing your fear, above all, of it.

God Bless

[dairygirl4u2c]

so if i were you, as i do, i'd attack it from trying to find inconsistencies in faith and morals.

Edited April 5, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[Galloglasses]

I had clearly underestimated the intensity of this thread in my last post. :U

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]and/or, something he's not equipped to deal with right now in his life, whether it because of pride or other reasons.[[/quote]

well, i should have said that the other erasons may be that he needs time etc, just to clarify. so that that dawkins comment wouldn't have needed to be said, at least as far as my posts, were i to have clarified.

[dairygirl4u2c]

also, the CC praises people who stood against the sins of the church memebers of the past. i remember seeing that back when i was a catholic.... prayers during mass to the people who were persecuted by their own church for doing the right thing. the church doesn't teach that you can't stand against it when it's wrong on non-faith and morals. in fact, it encourages it, and praises it, particularly if you gave yoru life for that.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1492922' date='Apr 5 2008, 10:48 AM']it still seems to me you're playing games to get out of really examing the teachings of the church.

also, you still push about killings of the church. you didn't really address the hypothetical of Jesus' followers.... is it okay that the apostles never killed anyone, that their sins were only a lesser degree of bad? a tree by their fruits... they were sinners too, and could be argued bad fruit. was it impossible for the apostles to have killed then? how is judas an exception given hat he did? so if not impossible for the apostles to have killed, but had they killed, would they have been a group that you would not have followed because of their sins? your argument from this perspective doesn't really add up to much. if the CC was constantly bad, you might have something, but it's not, as a people. so either you're claiming the apostles, more acurrately and their followers, could not have killed.... or you're arguing you wouldn't have followed that group back then if they had.... neither of which make much sense.

ie the popes never killed people in the inquisitions much, it was that they didn't do anything when they should have. even if the popes did tough kill, it was not a teaching of fraith and morals, but only them being sinners, as the apostles were sinners. plus, most of the time, the church does good, and has only those few time in history it's been bad.

if jesus did leave a physical church, i wouldn't expect anything less than it being full of sins, while generally good fruits,,,, somehting that characterize the CC and teachings and its impact on the world beyond the isolated events ofthe inquisitions etc.
i would expect though in that church, consistency in teachings. again, the issues you seem to intent to avoid.

just because teachings are complicated, like purgatory, doesn't mean it's not from God. any simple teaching can be complicated. surely you respect christians who are theologians, reasoning from scriptures etc. that could be applied to the catholic church. no catholic has to live a life of understanding complications, they are only to live a life obedient to Jesus and the bible and arguably to them his Church. the complications are only there if you are a christian want a deeper understanding. biblical theology can be deep, you would i'm sure agree.
if you think purgatory is bad in terms of denying the salvic work of Jesus, then you better discuss it, cause you're arguemnt can't just be that you assume that's true.... you're presupposing an assumption that you could only know properly by discussing it.
so, you ahve not proven purgatory wrong or anything else, you've only proven you don't want to think about it.

it's a cop out to say no one knew what scriptures you were talking about, probably only no one has responded to them. a tree by their fruits scripture is read in catholic churches. the whore of babylon passage is lodged against that church all the time, especially here. people here are some of the best knowledgeable people i know about the bible.
www.scripturecatholic.com
i know i'm not speaking only for myself when i say every passage you've cited is familiar.
you can play stereotypes but it's not reality. maybe you're not experience enough wiht catholics to know they know the bible, often. not all christians know the bible either... only those who know better do.

the whore of babylon... is sort of a backhanded compliment to the church, to those who argue it at first. cause it's not true, but at least they recognize that the church has something to it... even if it's bad, it's at least aknoweledged there' soeting. then, if seens that that argument doens't work, then that something turns into what if... what if it's true.
kinda like how don't don't don't hate, appreciate, appreciate, appreciate is in many ways better than indifference, cause at least there's passion there, and if don't don't don't hate, appreciate, appreciate, appreciate is gone, it has much potential to it.

don't just read the quote, but read the link too:
[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/whore_of_babylon.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/whore_of_babylon.asp[/url]
-This passage gives us one reason why the Catholic Church cannot be the Whore. We are told that the heads "are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come." If five of these kings had fallen in John's day and one of them was still in existence, then the Whore must have existed in John's day. Yet Christian Rome and Vatican City did not. However, pagan Rome did have a line of emperors, and the majority of commentators see this as the line of kings to which 17:10 refers. Five of these emperors are referred to as having already fallen, one as still reigning in John's time, and another yet to come. Since Jerusalem had no such line of kings in the first century, this gives us evidence that the Beast (though not the Whore) is Rome.

the CC is almost certainly not babylon the whore. yet, you will proably just ignore this issue, like you ignored purgatory, and go on takign superficial strikes instead of personally reasponsible tackling hte issues. instead, you will go on about the occasional bad fruits, that even the apostles had and any church of God would have, and so isn't really even an argument at all.[/quote]
Dairy... did you write that? There's some good stuff in there You've learned a lot in the last Year (since I've joined PM, anyways)

[SanctitasDeo]

I don't know why you still haven't answered my question. I asked you why belonging to an "organized religion" stops me from having a personal relationship with my Saviour. You seem to think that everyone who belongs to anything organized just gives up all thought and does whatever their leaders tell them without thinking and praying and testing it with the Spirit. Why do you think this? I don't and neither does anyone else that I know.

I agree that it can happen, but frankly, I see more it happening in the rather unorganized non-denominational churches in my area. Many people blindly follow their unorganized and non-denominational pastors here in the South.

[quote]All we can do is live life in faith. I don't like being involved in organized religion, because the apostles weren't organized, and the early church wasn't organized, but now it is.[/quote]

What? Why did Paul talk so much about Bishops and so forth? Why are there qualifications for being a bishop, if there was no organization. What is a bishop to you? Do you have them?

Many of the books in the Bible are epistles sent from the apostles to the bishops and so forth of the churches organized in the various cities to which the epistles were sent. If there was no organization, how did Paul and the other apostles have authority to direct the Church. Christ gave them that authority when he organized them and gave them direction to organize His church

[quote]I will ask this question, and I want all of you to answer it. Jesus commissioned all of us to go out and teach the nations. . . Have you? Have you shared Christ Crucified with your loved ones who haven't repented of their sins yet, without getting into the whole religious thing with them. Have you? The apostles did! Have you?[/quote]

This next week, I am embarking on a two-year mission to share the gospel of Jesus Christ with the people of Russia. I will teach his doctrine, which is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism for the remission of sins, and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands.

I share what I know when I get the chance. I wish I could be better about it.

(And if I don't get the chance to respond to this thread again, that is why. I won't really have much in the way of internet access while I am gone.)

[quote]Do you even know when God is talking to you, or when it is you thinking, or when the devil is whispering lies in your ears?[/quote]

Yes. Do you?

[quote]I'd prefer to spend time with my loved ones sharing faith with them, instead of the whole - do as I say bunch of self-righteous people. Many of your answers reeked of self-rightousness.[/quote]

[img]http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/oliphant/oa048.jpg[/img]

Edited April 5, 2008 by SanctitasDeo

[Justin86]

[quote]I want to hear why everybody here think any kind of organized religion is right?[/quote]
If there is only one truth, then there is only one God. If this one God loves mankind it would make sense that He would put forth one way to Him. That one way is the Catholic Church.

Any questions?

Edited April 5, 2008 by Justin86

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1492922' date='Apr 5 2008, 09:48 AM'][url="http://www.catholic.com/library/whore_of_babylon.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/whore_of_babylon.asp[/url]
-This passage gives us one reason why the Catholic Church cannot be the Whore. We are told that the heads "are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come." If five of these kings had fallen in John’s day and one of them was still in existence, then the Whore must have existed in John’s day. Yet Christian Rome and Vatican City did not. However, pagan Rome did have a line of emperors, and the majority of commentators see this as the line of kings to which 17:10 refers. Five of these emperors are referred to as having already fallen, one as still reigning in John’s time, and another yet to come. Since Jerusalem had no such line of kings in the first century, this gives us evidence that the Beast (though not the Whore) is Rome.

the CC is almost certainly not Babylon the whore. yet, you will proably just ignore this issue, like you ignored purgatory, and go on taking superficial strikes instead of personally reaponsible tackling hte issues. instead, you will go on about the occasional bad fruits, that even the apostles had and any church of God would have, and so isn't really even an argument at all.[/quote]

Did I say it was the whore, or was a part of the whore? Surely, atheists are part of the whore of Babylon, as are satanists, witches, wiccans, druids, and many other types of people.

I am saying, everybody who has murdered is a part of the whore of Babylon, as is everybody who has raped children, raped women, raped men, and caused all sorts of abuse to all man kind. If someone gets it into their head that killing for their religion is right, then they are part of the whore of Babylon.

I find it much better to not live for a religion, because I have no religion to kill for.

Edited April 6, 2008 by JesusIsMySuperHero

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='SanctitasDeo' post='1493036' date='Apr 5 2008, 04:11 PM']I don't know why you still haven't answered my question. I asked you why belonging to an "organized religion" stops me from having a personal relationship with my Saviour. You seem to think that everyone who belongs to anything organized just gives up all thought and does whatever their leaders tell them without thinking and praying and testing it with the Spirit. Why do you think this? I don't and neither does anyone else that I know.

I agree that it can happen, but frankly, I see more it happening in the rather unorganized non-denominational churches in my area. Many people blindly follow their unorganized and non-denominational pastors here in the South.[/quote]

Organized religion doesn't stop someone from having a relationship with our Saviour, but don't rely on it. Be brave, and study and pray on your own, and test the spirits as you hear them.

For instance, as you can see in my thoughts in purgatory in another thread about justification and santification, I don't believe in purgatory, because it doesn't make sense when you think of what God has already done. If Jesus has taken away the sins of the world, then aren't my sins on him, and not me? Or was his sacrifice not perfect and now I have to spend time in purgatory (which I find is a contridiction of terms when I think of the after life, because past, present, and future are before the lord - which is why he is omniscient - but at the same time, how much time must I spend in purgatory to be cleansed, if there is no time in the after life?).

On the bible, you guys don't understand how the spirit works do you. God impressed it on someones heart to write gospels and epistles and letters, and later, God impressed it on other people's hearts which books to include. God is the author of the book, not men. He decided what was going to be in the bible and got men to fall in line with his authority. Only Christ has authority over the church. He may have representatives on earth, but he is the authority, not men. Men do as he wills, not the other way around - with all the times men have said - this pagan festival becomes Christian now. King David would have destroyed the Pagans for the festivals they held, as were many good kings of Israel. And yet, after we have their examples of tearing down pagan altars, and God passing judgement of Pagan Kings, we have his 'representives' being like the first jews who came into the promise land, they were permissive of Pagans, and allowed them to keep their practices.

The fact you keep on saying, at this time men choose the books of the Bible kinda takes God out of the equation, so what books should I read, and what books shouldn't I read, because some or all might not have been God's choices for his word!

You will at least conceed that argument for the divine authority of God's word.

I would think, the best way for Christianity to flourish again, especially during the end times, is to make it a family affair with Jesus. It should only be done at home, with a few families gathering together.

The problem with today is there is not enough of what I would call good men of God. Of all the people I have gone to church with there is only one man I would say is a man of God, because no matter what sermon he would give, it was always about Christ Crucified. It was about the Give me your money and God gives back. It was about - Conservatives are good and Liberals are bad. It was about nonsense. It was about God's sacrifice on the Cross - always moved my heart to repent of my sins, and seek God's forgiveness.

I've been to a couple of catholic masses, as my family is 'catholic' on my mother's side. It was never about Jesus. Only someone giving their opinion about a topic that was picked for at the Sunday. It never made me want to ask God for his forgiveness. I went to confession once or twice until I became passionate about learning about God.

But the more passionate I became about God, the more disturbed I became about what people would pray for, and thought about God. It almost seemed like people were moved to give church money for riches, and praying to have twin boys - instead of letting God bless them in the way God wanted to bless them. The final straw for me was when I wanted to set up an interaction website for the young people to use to interact with people in an area with high amounts of drug addiction, alcohol abuse, and prostitution, and the youth leaders told me that it wasn't a good idea because some people might say - Church s*cks. I couldn't believe they didn't believe God couldn't work a miracle through that interactive website. So, I left.

To me, church really is a place where self-righteous people go to think they are doing the right thing, while letting the world die outside.

Whens the last time any of you stopped quoting doctrine, and show the cuddle with my weeble and wub of God to people?

That is my wish, to motivate some of you to stop quoting doctrine of this, that, and the other thing, and start sharing God's compassion, through Christ Jesus. Stop being religious, and start following Jesus Christ. He told you to go out into all the world and teach the nations? If you are his followers, why don't you teach the nations?

At least, I am trying to teach people something I have learned about God. When's the last time you have taught someone something you believe of God?

Edited April 6, 2008 by JesusIsMySuperHero