Why Do You Think Organized Religion Is Right?

[T-Bone _]

[quote]After all, God says that the Babylon System is responsible for all murders in history[/quote]

In my experience, pretty much anyone who uses the terms: Babylon System, Babylon Mystery, Babylon Religion, etc. is an anti-Catholic troll and not worth listening to.

Edited March 29, 2008 by T-Bone _

[Aloysius]

the Church originally met in the TEMPLE in Jerusalem for prayer, it was only after they got kicked out by the Jews that they started to meet in homes out of necessity, until they were able to secure their own designated sacred places. there were designated Churches within St. John's lifetime, and archaeological evidence shows that a few rich roman converts donated their mansions to be used as Churches and secret lodgings for Ss. Peter and Paul. throughout it all, they were organized.

after St. Paul had a vision from Jesus Christ Himself telling him to be an apostle, he went to Jerusalem to speak to the Apostles (ie the Bishops of the time) and get a mandate from them, even though he had already received a mandate from Christ. seems pretty organized to me

FYI, the Catholic Church HAS condemned the popes who sold indulgences (which are something which you do not understand, they are simply the effects of prayers that heal a soul of the damage caused by sin after they have been forgiven of it by true repentance). They did so at the Council of Trent. And before then, the Church consistently taught against what it called "simony" ie, the selling of spiritual items for worldly benefit. That was an error which was corrected... people weren't burned at the stake for refusing to accept the idea of selling indulgences, there were plenty of laymen, priests, and bishops who remained in the Church who were always against that practice, and they made their voices known in the Counterreformation at the Council of Trent.

As regards killing people for standing up against Christmas, I have not heard of that chapter of history. Is there any historical evidence of Christians being killed for not accepting Christmas, or are you just presuming that there were people which there is no historical record of who refused to accept the celebration of the Nativity at the same time as the winter solstice used to be?

[mariahLVzJP2]

[quote name='Lord Philip' post='1484758' date='Mar 26 2008, 01:11 PM']Hello JesusIsMySuperHero,

There is a very simple answer to this, and a very complex answer to this. Let's start with the simple and work our way to the complex, shall we?

First, I prefer organized religion (I will assume by "Organized Religion", in the context of this forum, means the Catholic Church) because the only alternative is unorganized religion. Instead of being guided by timeless truths that do not change and have been valued by humanity since its beginning, with unorganized religion we are guided by our passions, the hippest new pop star, and any flashy thing that catches our fancy in the heat of the moment. In other words, without 'organized religion' we have no religion at all, or rather a religion of self-worship.

Let's take your "non organized religion" beliefs. Are you aware that this is simply the latest fad? Fads like this have come and gone for thousands and thousands of years. All of them have denounced the Catholic Church, some even calling it "dead." Now they are all dead, but the Church remains. The passing of time is like a river. Fads like the one you believe come and are gone in the blinking of an eye. This is because it is dead to begin with. Dead things are carried along the river and helplessly disappear into the horizon. Only a living thing can go against the current. Only a living thing can fight against the ever moving tides of time. Here the Church stands, though she has ben pronounced dead time and time again. But this is our secret: we have a God who knows the way out of the grave.

(To all the Catholics out there, I know you are just itching for me to acknowledge how thoroughly I have stolen from Chesterton in the last paragraph....please forgive me).

Let's go a little beyond this: let's start bringing in some evidence. I am guessing that since you like Jesus so much (but are not Catholic) you have read the Bible. I will not even touch upon how completely the Bible depends on the Church: let's just assume for now that the Bible stands on its own.

You seem to like Jesus a whole lot, but you only pick what you like about him and leave the rest by the wayside. In the end, it is just a religion of you instead of a true personal religion about God (which you aspire to). This is because the standard which you use to pick and choose what you believe about Jesus is what suits [b]you[/b] the most. So Jesus means nothing to you if he does not agree with you. So I don't understand why you even need Jesus at all: you didn't need him to tell you the things that you like; you already liked them. Could you please tell me why you like Jesus so much if all you get from him are things you already know?

Now let me tell you what I mean by you picking and choosing: you are ignoring everything Jesus said about the Church. Much more than mere "organized religion", I align myself to the Church. Let's look at some examples:

The classic example: the establishment of the Authority of the Petrine office and the promise of the Church's unassailable glory-- Matthew 16.17-19:

"And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven."

Let's move on. Ephesians 5.23:

"Because the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the church. He is the saviour of his body."

Did you catch that? First of all, this does not say that he is the savior of just anyone who happens to like him and a couple of his sayings. It says that he is the savior of his BODY, which is the Church. Now what could possibly by organized if a body is not organized? A body is visible, clearly identifiable, well defined with strict boundaries and works in harmony [b]because the whole body [u]submits[/u] to the head[/b]. We Catholics choose to submit to the Head who is Christ Jesus who established this Church: not another Church, not a spiritual religion which only exists inside an individual's mind. No, the Universal Church with Christ as its invisible Supreme Head and the Successor of Peter as the lowly visible head whose headship is one of service and sacrifice, not self-glorification, is the true Body of Christ.

The passage goes on to describe in graphic detail how we are the very flesh, blood and bones of Jesus Christ. You cannot be a fan of Jesus without being a fan of his body. Can you imagine me coming up to you and saying: "I really like you so much and I admire you. It is just this body of yours that I don't like. I don't like being accountable to it and I don't like the look of your eyes when I am doing something you don't like. I tell you what, I will cut your throat so that you can be a disembodied spirit. That way I can do whatever the hell I want, and when I need you I can get nice feelings from thinking about your spiritual self floating in the clouds." You would be horrified. Jesus is horrified at you doing that to him. Jesus does not want admirers. He wants members of his body.

I Timothy 3.15:

"But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."

This is the nail in the coffin. There can be nothing else to say about unorganized religion. It is the Church which is the pillar and foundation of the truth: not you, not just any individual out there who happens to feel spiritual on Wednesdays but carnal on Fridays, not even me. Only submission to Christ, which is the same thing as submission to his body, the Church, is the way for you to know the truth, and for the truth to set you free.

Religions causing wars? Why don't you read a little history. Do some research, find for me specific evidence where religion has caused an unjust war. I do not mean some religious person or cleric (you might as well say that people with eyeballs start wars), I mean a definitive, declarative statement of divine revelation which has been the catalyst for war.

What you will find is that greed, corruption, pride, and perhaps even LACK of religion were the causes of those wars. If anything, the anti-religion of Communism and Nazism in JUST THE LAST 100 YEARS is responsible for more destruction of human life than all the wars the world ever saw combined ten times over. If ANYONE needs to face up to responsibility for the loss of life, it is the atheistic or the unorganized religion folks. There is reasoning behind this: in both atheism and unorganized religion, the individual is free to define for him or herself what is right and wrong: plain and simple. There is no objective right and wrong, only relative right and wrong based on taste, evolution, and whim. Killing millions of Jews is therefore arbitrary. Why not?

Can you tell me why it is wrong to kill Jews? I don't want your opinion, I want hard facts that work within your own framework of thought. If Hitler was standing right in front of you, what would you tell him that would make him accountable to your own private organized religion? And once you did that why could he not turn around and say, "Your religion might be good for you, but my religion of torture, death, and war is good for me. Don't impose your values on me." Hellfire and damnation.

I hope this helps you understand why we follow "organized religion". We are sane, we like order instead of chaos, we are consistent, and our God has set things up this way and commanded us to obey. Plain and simple.

Farewell and God bless,

Philip[/quote]

Awesome post!

It would be cool if JesusIsMySuperHero addressed it

[cmotherofpirl]

'JesusIsMySuperHero' wrote:
Why hasn't anybody addressed my arguement, I will not belong to a system that murders people?
[color="#0000FF"]So you are not under the authority of any government, although the Bible says you should be?[/color]

Or have you forgotten the Inquisitions, the crusades, 9/11, or any of those things, were organized religion decided that other people's religion were below them, so they murdered others because they didn't belong to their religion.
[color="#4169E1"]I suggest to read the articles in the reference section to aquaint yourself with the facts concerning the Inquisition or crusades. 9/11 was not the result of an organized religion, just a band of murders using religion as an excuse. People and small groups often do that.[/color]


How can anybody condone such things? Are you senseless? How far would you go to prove your religion right? I don't accept anything that promotes murder, be it a government or religion!
[color="#0000FF"]I don't see people condoning sin here.[/color]

So, you please address the data.
I would say, what part of thou shall not kill do you not understand?
I have no religion. I just quote the Bible, and let the words fall where they fall. Or don't you accept that the entire Bible is a source of sound doctrine?
[color="#0000FF"]
The Bible is a Catholic book, whose texts were preserved and collated by the Catholic Church in the early centuries. It is not the summit of doctrine nor meant to be. The NT itself states " the Church is the pillar and foundation" and the Apostles are to "hand on their teaching", which is what the Church has done since Pentecost 2000 years ago. If you claim to have no religion then you are no christian, because christianity is a community-based religion.[/color]

I would be the first to say Hitler is wrong for murder, and so are religions who have committed murder as well. After all, God says that the Babylon System is responsible for all murders in history - starting from Caine. Any religion that has one leader murder one person for standing against it on the side of morality - like people who once stood against popes who brought us 'Christ'mas - which was Yule, and took people's money - claiming dead loved ones could leave purgatory because of their gifts - and were burnt to the stake for it. . . Don't tell me those things didn't happen?
[color="#0000FF"]
Kindly give us source for you issue with Christmas. You don't understand Purgatory or Indulgances , did you read the article I linked to?[/color]

Those are two examples of things that Popes have done that people have rightly opposed, and died as a result of it.

If they were guilty of it then, they are still guilty of it now - and so I will not belong to any organization who hasn't condemned those men. . .

[color="#0000FF"]So you have read all of Catholic history to know what the Church has or has not condemned?[/color]

[dairygirl4u2c]

the CC condemns when its clear its people acted wrong, usually. if it don't it's prob cause it's complicated or they've not been informed. that its people have acted wrong, is proof that its people is sinful, not the teaching of its church.

even the pope can sin, but that does't detract from its teaching.
plus, techincally, not teaching soemthing is't the same as teaching something wrongfully.

you seemed to have accepted that this is a significant distinction, that's why you posted the stuff about purgatory.

now, for some reason, you're again focusing on the people's sins and not the flaws in the teachings.
and you've not addressed the issue of contradiction of its teaching.

so, to me, it seems you're evading the issues.

[Apotheoun]

I don't belong to "organized religion"; instead, I belong to the body of Christ, i.e., the Catholic Church.

[Galloglasses]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1488001' date='Mar 29 2008, 04:00 PM']I don't belong to "organized religion"; instead, I belong to the body of Christ, i.e., the Catholic Church.[/quote]

True as that is, your post was rather provocative.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1488030' date='Mar 29 2008, 06:19 PM']True as that is, your post was rather provocative.[/quote]
but accurate

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1488030' date='Mar 29 2008, 03:19 PM']True as that is, your post was rather provocative.[/quote]
It is not really a provocative comment; I simply do not believe that the cliché phrase "organized religion" has any substantive content.

Edited March 30, 2008 by Apotheoun

[Galloglasses]

Point taken.

[dairygirl4u2c]

Also, what if, hypothetically, Jesus did leave a physical church, beyond one where everyone does their own thing in the name of personally responsible.

Would they be expected to be perfect? No. no reasonable person would expect that.

would you have stopped following Jesus, or at least stopped following him with the other apostles, when you saw how sinful his apostles were, including Peter? Peter denied Jesus. Thomas doubted him. (not even getting into Judas) Peter didn't sit with the Jews when he should have at dinner. These are just off the top of my head.

again, it seems like a cop out ot point to the bad people within the church, instead of dealing with the issues of the church itself.

Edited March 30, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[Lord Philip]

We have been addressing your argument. We have dealt with the "Religion Causes War" theory of yours, and people have time and time again dealt with these silly accusations about the Inquisition and the like. Do you think we go around trying to convince people that these things were okay? The Church has repudiated these actions, and if you really cared about the truth you would have known that.

I will say this, though. The Inquisition and the other terrible times in history do not even begin to compare with the massive death toll and genocide accomplished in the century of atheism and non-religion. As I said (I always have to repeat myself to my opponents), all the death from all the tragedies of the past does not come close to the death and destruction of the last centry. How do you explain that? How come your beloved unorganized religion has done the opposite of solve the violence problem?

"I would say, what part of thou shall not kill do you not understand?"

This answer is not sufficient. You are saying that we should all decide what is true for ourselves. Why should I listen to you, the Bible, or anybody? You are just a man. For all I know, the Bible was just written by men. I am a man. Why should I take another man's opinion any more seriously than my own, since we are all ontologically equal? By saying "thou shalt not kill," you are throwing a maxim of organized religion at me. How come you rush to organized religion for your answers to tough problems, but you stay far away from it when it makes demands on you? This is inconsistent, JesusIsMySuperhero. Tell me, is it part of your personal religion to be inconsistent?

This would not work with Hitler for the very same reason that I laid out in the last paragraph.

So before you can come and judge Christianity, you have some fundamental problems that you must solve. How can you tell me that I am wrong in doing anything, much less the Catholic Church, when you cannot even tell Hitler he is wrong for killing Jews (outside your personal opinion)? Can you please work that out for me? What if my personal unorganized religion becomes a twisted sort of Catholicism where I say that we must kill Muslims and people who prefer unorganized religion? What would you say to me then?

There is nothing more to say.

God bless,

Philip

[dairygirl4u2c]

i think everything that was said to him was in one ear and out the other.

and/or, something he's not equipped to deal with right now in his life, whether it because of pride or other reasons.

he's definitely not proven himself personally responsible.

[Galloglasses]

While Lord Phillip makes aclear, (and somewhat damning), counter arguement, can I call on people to lower the level of contempt?

Dairygirl's last post there was viably dripping with it. No offence. I think the majority here have answered his question several times, but consider the fact that he may not have processed what you have said yet. This happens sometimes. Extreme case, Richard Dawkins thinking all Religion is intrinsically evil despite daily proofs to the opposite, every day case, you hear what you're teacher in school is telling you plainly yet you still fail to comprehend for some unknown reason. Give the person time to think it through, its been a while since his last post here. Try not to take advantage of the time to attack his case again and again till he has had time to argue back.

I haven't participated in this thread but i'm keeping an eye on it, seems like a good thing to source apologetics from.

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='Lord Philip' post='1489572' date='Mar 31 2008, 12:02 PM']We have been addressing your argument. We have dealt with the "Religion Causes War" theory of yours, and people have time and time again dealt with these silly accusations about the Inquisition and the like. Do you think we go around trying to convince people that these things were okay? The Church has repudiated these actions, and if you really cared about the truth you would have known that.[/quote]

So, athiests who don't have the holy spirit kill millions, I know that. So does organized religion. . .

Maybe both aren't lead by the holy spirit?

[quote name='Lord Philip' post='1489572' date='Mar 31 2008, 12:02 PM']I will say this, though. The Inquisition and the other terrible times in history do not even begin to compare with the massive death toll and genocide accomplished in the century of atheism and non-religion. As I said (I always have to repeat myself to my opponents), all the death from all the tragedies of the past does not come close to the death and destruction of the last centry. How do you explain that? How come your beloved unorganized religion has done the opposite of solve the violence problem?[/quote]

So the holy spirit lead popes and bishops to kill millions during that time? Jesus said a good tree can only produce good fruit, and an evil tree can only produce evil fruit. Hmmmmm, what fruit would produce murder?

[quote name='Lord Philip' post='1489572' date='Mar 31 2008, 12:02 PM']"I would say, what part of thou shall not kill do you not understand?"

This answer is not sufficient. You are saying that we should all decide what is true for ourselves. Why should I listen to you, the Bible, or anybody? You are just a man. For all I know, the Bible was just written by men. I am a man. Why should I take another man's opinion any more seriously than my own, since we are all ontologically equal? By saying "thou shalt not kill," you are throwing a maxim of organized religion at me. How come you rush to organized religion for your answers to tough problems, but you stay far away from it when it makes demands on you? This is inconsistent, JesusIsMySuperhero. Tell me, is it part of your personal religion to be inconsistent?

This would not work with Hitler for the very same reason that I laid out in the last paragraph.[/quote]

First, I follow the man Jesus Christ daily. That's the only man I follow. I don't care for politicians, religious leaders, or anybody else. If the Apostles just followed Jesus, so will I. I'll take their example, and not anybody elses. If other people decide to do wickedly, the bible tells me let the wicked be wicked and just be just. I will stand up and die for Jesus.

[quote name='Lord Philip' post='1489572' date='Mar 31 2008, 12:02 PM']So before you can come and judge Christianity, you have some fundamental problems that you must solve. How can you tell me that I am wrong in doing anything, much less the Catholic Church, when you cannot even tell Hitler he is wrong for killing Jews (outside your personal opinion)? Can you please work that out for me? What if my personal unorganized religion becomes a twisted sort of Catholicism where I say that we must kill Muslims and people who prefer unorganized religion? What would you say to me then?[/quote]

Chistianity is just a fancy term for a follower of Jesus Christ. It was actually an insult to be called a Christian once upon a time - as that was what people were called by non-believers who mocked them.

You say I am inconsistent. Okay, I'll accept that. If you think I am inconsistent, go ahead. None of us understands full truth, nor will we ever. All we can do is live life in faith. I don't like being involved in organized religion, because the apostles weren't organized, and the early church wasn't organized, but now it is. It is one of the ways that the world is, because there are people who want to gate keep knowledge and understanding for their own benefit. I'd prefer to spend time with my loved ones sharing faith with them, instead of the whole - do as I say bunch of self-righteous people. Many of your answers reeked of self-rightousness. I will ask this question, and I want all of you to answer it. Jesus commissioned all of us to go out and teach the nations. . . Have you? Have you shared Christ Crucified with your loved ones who haven't repented of their sins yet, without getting into the whole religious thing with them. Have you? The apostles did! Have you?

Do you even know when God is talking to you, or when it is you thinking, or when the devil is whispering lies in your ears?

[quote name='Lord Philip' post='1489572' date='Mar 31 2008, 12:02 PM']There is nothing more to say.

God bless,

Philip[/quote]