Why Do You Think Organized Religion Is Right?

[T-Bone _]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1485333' date='Mar 26 2008, 07:56 PM']So, you're saying you think disorganized religion is better? [/quote]

And now to lame things up:

[img]http://www.nomic.net/deadgames/imperial/28.2/calvin.gif[/img]

[MissScripture]

[quote name='T-Bone _' post='1485604' date='Mar 27 2008, 07:29 AM']And now to lame things up:

[img]http://www.nomic.net/deadgames/imperial/28.2/calvin.gif[/img][/quote]
But you just wandered into the alliteration always area. All your posts on this thread now must be alliteration!

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

Wow guys,

You'd think I just personally attacked all of you.

Hitler went his way this. Communist Atheism has tried that. Wow. Are you trying to make solid arguments without resorting to - you're just wrong?

First of all, who says with unorganized bible reading and prayer someone wouldn't talk about the Bible and God, and lead them to reading the bible and God and making a decision on their own.

I talked to an atheist about the Bible, and how it really tells people who to live personally responsible lives, how to stand against corruption in religion and government, and he said he would start to read the bible himself, because he might learn now than he did 10 years ago. Chalk one up to me being a 'Preacher'. I didn't think of myself as a preacher, but I gave him a sermon. . .

I don't believe God wants any organized way of coming to him. He wants people to share with each other, like it was during the Book of acts. Or do you think there were Cathedrals when 70,000 believers in Jeuruslem gathered? Or was it, they went from home to home, fellowshipping, and people noticed, and started to believe, because it wasn't organized, it was very disorganized, because who can organize that from the get go?

Regularilly, things would change - like Stephen being made someone who would go to widows with food to show the love and generosity of God.

I have read the bible front to back, and all I can see if God telling people to stand against corruption - be it in religion or government. Doesn't mean we don't obey them, but when we see something corrupt, we stand against it, and say it is corrupt, to the point where it might actually get us killed, because we are not to love our lives to the death.

[SanctitasDeo]

[quote]Wow guys,

You'd think I just personally attacked all of you.[/quote]

I expect that it is more like everyone just thinks you're wrong. Sorry if my tone in particular came in a little strong.

[quote]Hitler went his way this. Communist Atheism has tried that. Wow. Are you trying to make solid arguments without resorting to - you're just wrong?

First of all, who says with unorganized bible reading and prayer someone wouldn't talk about the Bible and God, and lead them to reading the bible and God and making a decision on their own.[/quote]

I could say the same things to you. Most of your arguments seem to stem from the fact that you think we're wrong. It's all cool, of course. I mean, I don't really expect any of you to put any stock in my interpretations of the Bible, or in the extrabiblical scripture in which I believe. And I might disagree with your interpretations of the Bible.

Who says that in the presence of organized religion, I can't read the Bible and come to Christ, as well as lead others to come to Christ? This can happen with or without organized religion. I believe that God will take anyone as far as they are willing to go.

[quote]I talked to an atheist about the Bible, and how it really tells people who to live personally responsible lives, how to stand against corruption in religion and government, and he said he would start to read the bible himself, because he might learn now than he did 10 years ago. Chalk one up to me being a 'Preacher'. I didn't think of myself as a preacher, but I gave him a sermon. . .[/quote]

Awesome.

[quote]I don't believe God wants any organized way of coming to him. He wants people to share with each other, like it was during the Book of acts. Or do you think there were Cathedrals when 70,000 believers in Jeuruslem gathered? Or was it, they went from home to home, fellowshipping, and people noticed, and started to believe, because it wasn't organized, it was very disorganized, because who can organize that from the get go?[/quote]

I do believe that God has organized a way of coming back to him. He does want people to share with each other, just like in the Acts of the Apostles.

Of course there were no Cathedrals in Jerusalem. That would be kinda silly. I mean, why put in a Cathedral in the place where they just killed the founder of your religion. You'd have a lot of opposition to that sort of thing, probably get some zoning laws passed against, maybe some bricks through windows, that sort of thing. Besides, why build a Cathedral when there aren't actually 70,000 believers to fill it. I bet the Apostles were fairly practical about that sort of thing.

It would make sense to build some small churches, though. Perhaps enough to fit the amount of people that would use them. Or maybe they met in homes or other buildings, that has been done before, too. They may have built these small church buildings in each of those cities where they went around establishing churches, you know, each of those churches that Paul sent epistles to.

[quote]I have read the bible front to back, and all I can see is God telling people to stand against corruption - be it in religion or government. Doesn't mean we don't obey them, but when we see something corrupt, we stand against it, and say it is corrupt, to the point where it might actually get us killed, because we are not to love our lives to the death.[/quote]

Sounds good to me. Jesus didn't like corruption. I don't like corruption either.

You know, it seems to me that this discussion is going to come down to one thing. The problem here is not the possibility of corruption in organized religion. I don't believe that God would shy away from doing what he wanted regardless of the possibiities.

The main difference between us, however, is that of authority and priesthood. There are many reason for having an organized church. Priesthood is the main one, I think. Before Christ went to the Heavens, he granted Peter the sealing power and the power to act as proxy for Christ, in His name. He gave him the keys to receive revelation for the world. He held the power to perform the ordinances that Christ commanded the Apostles to perform, such as baptism. He organized his followers into a priesthood structure, such as the twelve Apostles. This, it seems to me, is the main reason that he organized a church in the first place.

As I see it, this is what this discussion is about. It doesn't really have much to do with the corruptions possible when corrupt men take advantage of an organization. Mostly it is about the recognition of the priesthood God gave to us for his purposes.

I believe that I am following the prophet of God on Earth. That is why I belong to an organized religion.

Edited March 28, 2008 by SanctitasDeo

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='SanctitasDeo' post='1486448' date='Mar 28 2008, 05:37 AM']Of course there were no Cathedrals in Jerusalem. That would be kinda silly. I mean, why put in a Cathedral in the place where they just killed the founder of your religion. You'd have a lot of opposition to that sort of thing, probably get some zoning laws passed against, maybe some bricks through windows, that sort of thing. Besides, why build a Cathedral when there aren't actually 70,000 believers to fill it. I bet the Apostles were fairly practical about that sort of thing.

It would make sense to build some small churches, though. Perhaps enough to fit the amount of people that would use them. Or maybe they met in homes or other buildings, that has been done before, too. They may have built these small church buildings in each of those cities where they went around establishing churches, you know, each of those churches that Paul sent epistles to.[/quote]

In his book [i]Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic[/i], David Currie quotes from an inventory of a second-century church's possessions to show that liturgically based, organised worship has been around since the beginnings of Christianity. The church possessed gold candlesticks, incense burners, oil for anointing, altar linens, and many of those other devotional objects that people associate with Catholicism. As it's not possible to have liturgical worship without organised religion, it can't really be disputed that Christianity was organised from the beginning. That much is evident from the New Testament alone.

It seems to me as though you are treating the phrase 'organised religion' as a cliche rather than looking at what it actually is.

[scardella]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1486267' date='Mar 27 2008, 09:35 PM']You'd think I just personally attacked all of you.[/quote]

I was feeling more like than Sorry if it came across that way.

You still have not addressed my questions regarding the compilation of the bible and its preservation and propagation before the Protestant Reformation.

[quote]First of all, who says with unorganized bible reading and prayer someone wouldn't talk about the Bible and God, and lead them to reading the bible and God and making a decision on their own.[/quote]

Don't you think it's rather confusing to non-Christians when one Christian tells them of the wonders of Jesus' Resurrection, whereas other Christians claim it's allegory? When one Christian says that liturgy is wrong, whereas another sings its praises? When one claims that we consume Jesus' Body by reading Scripture, another by receiving a symbolic communion, and yet another claims that it is truly His Body and Blood? These are the sorts of things that turn people off. There would be absolute chaos in terms of what people believe.

[quote]I don't believe God wants any organized way of coming to him. He wants people to share with each other, like it was during the Book of acts. Or do you think there were Cathedrals when 70,000 believers in Jeuruslem gathered? Or was it, they went from home to home, fellowshipping, and people noticed, and started to believe, because it wasn't organized, it was very disorganized, because who can organize that from the get go?[/quote]

What about the Apostles and presbyters and deacons? That is not organization? What about when Paul talks about them coming together for the Lord's Supper? Is that not organized?

[quote]Regularilly, things would change - like Stephen being made someone who would go to widows with food to show the love and generosity of God.

I have read the bible front to back, and all I can see if God telling people to stand against corruption - be it in religion or government. Doesn't mean we don't obey them, but when we see something corrupt, we stand against it, and say it is corrupt, to the point where it might actually get us killed, because we are not to love our lives to the death.[/quote]

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1486267' date='Mar 27 2008, 10:35 PM']Wow guys,

You'd think I just personally attacked all of you.

Hitler went his way this. Communist Atheism has tried that. Wow. Are you trying to make solid arguments without resorting to - you're just wrong?

First of all, who says with unorganized bible reading and prayer someone wouldn't talk about the Bible and God, and lead them to reading the bible and God and making a decision on their own.

I talked to an atheist about the Bible, and how it really tells people who to live personally responsible lives, how to stand against corruption in religion and government, and he said he would start to read the bible himself, because he might learn now than he did 10 years ago. Chalk one up to me being a 'Preacher'. I didn't think of myself as a preacher, but I gave him a sermon. . .

I don't believe God wants any organized way of coming to him. He wants people to share with each other, like it was during the Book of acts. Or do you think there were Cathedrals when 70,000 believers in Jeuruslem gathered? Or was it, they went from home to home, fellowshipping, and people noticed, and started to believe, because it wasn't organized, it was very disorganized, because who can organize that from the get go?

Regularilly, things would change - like Stephen being made someone who would go to widows with food to show the love and generosity of God.

I have read the bible front to back, and all I can see if God telling people to stand against corruption - be it in religion or government. Doesn't mean we don't obey them, but when we see something corrupt, we stand against it, and say it is corrupt, to the point where it might actually get us killed, because we are not to love our lives to the death.[/quote]
LOL, we are not attacking you, simply pointing out the error in your thinking and facts.

Did you miss the part about the CHURCH being the pillar and foundation? Its in Timothy.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i think i've provided a solid argument for purgatory. you can disagree with it, ultimately, if you want. but, you have to provide reasons for disagreeing, and also find another beef with the CC if you concede the purgatory thing is plausibly biblical if you want to say they are corrupt.

saying "i think the CC is corrupt" doesn't accomplish a whole lot, if what you see as corrupt is plausible. all you have at best is something plausile yourself, and from where i'm sitting, i disagree with you even as a noncatholic that it's plausible.
so it's ironic that the CC and its members would find your beliefs and your system of beliefs corrupt, and unbiblical to add to the irony.

the reason i'm pushing you is, my personal agenda is to find a decent arguemnt against the church, and if you can't provide it, then it doesn't help me in my search against the church, but actually tells me there's another person who doesn't have much of a basis to be against the CC. (so you're not doing much in your pursuit against incorruption)

the personal responsiblity stuff is a solid argument. but, as someone who is personally responsible, it seems you should look into and discuss this stuff more. after you've done that, as a personally responsible person, then you've proven yourself. if you don't, then you've not shown yourself to be personally responsible.

[thessalonian]

Man is a social being. Further his accomplishments are far greather when he works together. True enough he can be more destructive as well. A sad fact of our sin nature. But we are striving to understand an infinite God. To get a glimpse of who he is and what he wants to do for us if we will let him. He has given us a Church that is 2000 years old and far wiser than we can be individually. He has given us this Church to instruct us far beyond what we could do in a lifetime ourselves. The more we know him, the more we love him and that is what he wants for us. Individually we are incapble of the heights to which we can reach. I was thinking about the Wright brothers inventing the airplane a few weeks ago. How easy it now is to build an airplane. Even I could do it. Yet at the time noone could do it. Individually we possess such a small part of the knowledge on earth both with regard to the secular and with the spiritual. When we come together and build on the past that is when we achieve greatness. We can look at the bad all day long and judge it through the foggy lenses in our glasses of today. But what is forgotten many times by the anti-catholic is the great saints of the Church who have IN FACT done more good than the evil that has been done through those in the Church. There are far more good popes than bad ones for instance. But this is never admitted or talked about.

[Lord Philip]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1486267' date='Mar 27 2008, 07:35 PM']Wow guys,

You'd think I just personally attacked all of you.

Hitler went his way this. Communist Atheism has tried that. Wow. Are you trying to make solid arguments without resorting to - you're just wrong?

First of all, who says with unorganized bible reading and prayer someone wouldn't talk about the Bible and God, and lead them to reading the bible and God and making a decision on their own.

I talked to an atheist about the Bible, and how it really tells people who to live personally responsible lives, how to stand against corruption in religion and government, and he said he would start to read the bible himself, because he might learn now than he did 10 years ago. Chalk one up to me being a 'Preacher'. I didn't think of myself as a preacher, but I gave him a sermon. . .

I don't believe God wants any organized way of coming to him. He wants people to share with each other, like it was during the Book of acts. Or do you think there were Cathedrals when 70,000 believers in Jeuruslem gathered? Or was it, they went from home to home, fellowshipping, and people noticed, and started to believe, because it wasn't organized, it was very disorganized, because who can organize that from the get go?

Regularilly, things would change - like Stephen being made someone who would go to widows with food to show the love and generosity of God.

I have read the bible front to back, and all I can see if God telling people to stand against corruption - be it in religion or government. Doesn't mean we don't obey them, but when we see something corrupt, we stand against it, and say it is corrupt, to the point where it might actually get us killed, because we are not to love our lives to the death.[/quote]

JesusIsMySuperhero,

This is typical of people who cannot deal with the tremendous amount of evidence brought up against their claim: they cry "attack" and ad hominem. I, along with several others, put a lot of time in addressing your objections to organized religion. Yet you did not even begin to address the points that any of us brought up. You just brushed it aside. None of us said "you are just wrong." If you want that go to a Baptist board. That does not fly with Catholics nor does evading data and arguments.

Please look through the things we have said and address them. I would particularly like to know how you would answer the question I posed in my post:

"Can you tell me why it is wrong to kill Jews? I don't want your opinion, I want hard facts that work within your own framework of thought. If Hitler was standing right in front of you, what would you tell him that would make him accountable to your own private organized religion? And once you did that why could he not turn around and say, "Your religion might be good for you, but my religion of torture, death, and war is good for me. Don't impose your values on me.""

I would also like to know what your response is to the evidence shown in opposition to your claim that "religion causes wars."

Finally, I would really like to know how you escape the problems of organized religion by embracing unorganized religion. Now be careful: I asked "how" here. This requires actual arguments from you, not just assertions about organized religion.

No "you are just wrong" here. Answer the questions. Address the data.

Thank you,

Philip

[dairygirl4u2c]

not discussing the issues is like politicians who avoid the issues to engage in platitudes and rhetoric.

granted, personal responsiblity is a decent argument, and an important issue, but now is the time to put that responsiblity money where your mouth is, and discuss the issues.

a responsible person does not go to a religious website and declare their religion corrupt, and then not discuss why he thinks it's corrupt (an actual discussion and not mere declarations).

so, personal responsiblitiy suggests that he cut the chatter, and get to the issues. otherwise, he's being irresponsible.

it's about hte issues.

Edited March 28, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[abercius24]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1484658' date='Mar 26 2008, 10:48 AM']I want to hear why everybody here think any kind of organized religion is right?

Organized religion has lead to massacres, death, prejudice, plots of murder, and many other things. Millions of examples through out history?

Wouldn't it be better for people to not belong to a Religion and did things on their own, to learn about God, the universe, and themselves? Why do so many people pass the buck to 'more spiritual' leaders like the Pope? Shouldn't you work out [b]your[/b] salvation with fear and trembling?

The Pope is not going to get you into heaven. Only your trust in God and your reliance on the blood of Jesus?

Wouldn't the world be in a better place if there weren't Muslims, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, and the millions of religions out there? Why not just do what Jesus asked us to do, seek the Father with all our hearts, minds, strength, and soul?

Looking forward to your answers![/quote]

God is a God of organization -- which is why we generally have conhesive bodies & minds and can begin to contemplate such things. Organization itself is a virtue. The abuse of organization -- such as the mafia and corrupt politics -- is evil. And that evil exists where ever there are people to abuse their power -- inside and outside the Church. Have you considered how many people have been killed and tortured in the name of organized secularism, or organized atheism? Or how about those that suffered and died at the hands of the Barbarians -- the original anarchists and proponents of disorganized living? The problem isn't organization -- the problem is the lack of concern for one's fellow man, and one's tendency to love themselves more than others -- and love themselves more than God.

Edited March 29, 2008 by abercius24

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

Why hasn't anybody addressed my arguement, I will not belong to a system that murders people?

Or have you forgotten the Inquisitions, the crusades, 9/11, or any of those things, were organized religion decided that other people's religion were below them, so they murdered others because they didn't belong to their religion.

How can anybody condone such things? Are you senseless? How far would you go to prove your religion right? I don't accept anything that promotes murder, be it a government or religion!

So, you please address the data.

[quote name='Lord Philip' post='1486851' date='Mar 28 2008, 01:36 PM']"Can you tell me why it is wrong to kill Jews? I don't want your opinion, I want hard facts that work within your own framework of thought. If Hitler was standing right in front of you, what would you tell him that would make him accountable to your own private organized religion? And once you did that why could he not turn around and say, "Your religion might be good for you, but my religion of torture, death, and war is good for me. Don't impose your values on me.""

I would also like to know what your response is to the evidence shown in opposition to your claim that "religion causes wars."

Philip[/quote]

I would say, what part of thou shall not kill do you not understand?

I have no religion. I just quote the Bible, and let the words fall where they fall. Or don't you accept that the entire Bible is a source of sound doctrine?

I would be the first to say Hitler is wrong for murder, and so are religions who have committed murder as well. After all, God says that the Babylon System is responsible for all murders in history - starting from Caine. Any religion that has one leader murder one person for standing against it on the side of morality - like people who once stood against popes who brought us 'Christ'mas - which was Yule, and took people's money - claiming dead loved ones could leave purgatory because of their gifts - and were burnt to the stake for it. . . Don't tell me those things didn't happen?

Those are two examples of things that Popes have done that people have rightly opposed, and died as a result of it.

If they were guilty of it then, they are still guilty of it now - and so I will not belong to any organization who hasn't condemned those men. . .

[scardella]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1487419' date='Mar 29 2008, 12:12 AM']Why hasn't anybody addressed my arguement, I will not belong to a system that murders people?[/quote]

The Church does not murder people nor does it condone it. Perhaps other religions do. Furthermore, you are failing to distinguish between legitimate use of something and illegitimate use. Because something is used improperly does not make it inherently bad. You are drawing the incorrect conclusion that because some organizations have committed evil things at some times, that organizations, as such, are evil. This is a logical fallacy.

[quote]Or have you forgotten the Inquisitions, the crusades, 9/11, or any of those things, were organized religion decided that other people's religion were below them, so they murdered others because they didn't belong to their religion.[/quote]

This is another logical fallacy. Emotional appeal. However, I shall address each of those points that regard Christianity.

1. The Inquisition: this was not sponsored by the Church. This was not administered by the Church. This was not condoned by the Church. However, some Catholic clergy did participate.

2. Crusades: These were originally about creating a safe passageway to the Holy Land from Europe. It was not about killing the Turks. The Church did not say, "Lets go kill the Muslims!" Pilgrims were increasingly being harrassed, killed, etc. by the Muslims, and this was in response. There were some crusades that were more secular in nature that were not sanctioned by the Church.

[quote]How can anybody condone such things? Are you senseless? How far would you go to prove your religion right? I don't accept anything that promotes murder, be it a government or religion![/quote]

How far would you go to prove your religion right? I'll pick up my cross and follow Jesus through the Church that He founded.

[quote]So, you please address the data.
I would say, what part of thou shall not kill do you not understand?

I have no religion. I just quote the Bible, and let the words fall where they fall. Or don't you accept that the entire Bible is a source of sound doctrine?[/quote]

I do think it is a source (not the only source) of sound doctrine. However, I acknowledge that I am full of error and prejudice myself, and acknowledge that multiple people can have very widely differing interpretations of the same text. Being that Jesus implored us to be one, the only way for us to truly be united in faith is if we believe the same thing. The only way to guarantee that we believe the same thing is to create an authority that protects the validity of the text and the interpretation of the text. The authority that Jesus established were the Apostles with Peter as the rock. Those Apostles have been succeeded through the generations to the people we now call bishops and Peter has been succeeded through the generations (in an unbroken line, mind you) to the person we now call the pope. They have been given that power and responsibility to protect and promulgate that very faith that Jesus taught.

[quote]I would be the first to say Hitler is wrong for murder, and so are religions who have committed murder as well. After all, God says that the Babylon System is responsible for all murders in history - starting from Caine. Any religion that has one leader murder one person for standing against it on the side of morality - like people who once stood against popes who brought us 'Christ'mas - which was Yule, and took people's money - claiming dead loved ones could leave purgatory because of their gifts - and were burnt to the stake for it. . . Don't tell me those things didn't happen?[/quote]

What are you talking about? BTW, where is the "Babylon System" in the bible?

[quote]Those are two examples of things that Popes have done that people have rightly opposed, and died as a result of it.

If they were guilty of it then, they are still guilty of it now - and so I will not belong to any organization who hasn't condemned those men. . .[/quote]

Honestly, after reading what you have written, I believe that you have a specific axe to grind against the Church, and that you're simply using the "organized religion" as a sham argument to cover up some pain or guilt.

Why are you maligning the Church that Jesus founded?

[SanctitasDeo]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1487419' date='Mar 29 2008, 12:12 AM']Why hasn't anybody addressed my arguement, I will not belong to a system that murders people?

Or have you forgotten the Inquisitions, the crusades, 9/11, or any of those things, were organized religion decided that other people's religion were below them, so they murdered others because they didn't belong to their religion.

How can anybody condone such things? Are you senseless? How far would you go to prove your religion right? I don't accept anything that promotes murder, be it a government or religion!

So, you please address the data.
I would say, what part of thou shall not kill do you not understand?

I have no religion. I just quote the Bible, and let the words fall where they fall. Or don't you accept that the entire Bible is a source of sound doctrine?

I would be the first to say Hitler is wrong for murder, and so are religions who have committed murder as well. After all, God says that the Babylon System is responsible for all murders in history - starting from Caine. Any religion that has one leader murder one person for standing against it on the side of morality - like people who once stood against popes who brought us 'Christ'mas - which was Yule, and took people's money - claiming dead loved ones could leave purgatory because of their gifts - and were burnt to the stake for it. . . Don't tell me those things didn't happen?

Those are two examples of things that Popes have done that people have rightly opposed, and died as a result of it.

If they were guilty of it then, they are still guilty of it now - and so I will not belong to any organization who hasn't condemned those men. . .[/quote]

Well, let's see. First of all, I am reasonably certain that the Catholic Church has condemned the Inquisitions, Crusades, murders and so forth. Secondly, no leader of my church has ever murdered any person standing against it on the side of morality. When we have killed, it has been in self-defense against people who would violate their sacred right to worship God.

Are you seriously arguing that the celebration of Christmas is a moral issue? Do you really think that the replacement of a pagan holiday with a Christian one is something to argue about? Is that really something that all right-thinking people should oppose? What about WWI and II or maybe Communism? I've heard all three blamed on Catholics by 'right-thinking' protestants and non-denominationalists and so forth.

I hope you don't celebrate Christmas.

I think that by your logic, anyone who follows doctrines associated with Luther should also be blamed for his blatant disregard for the poor peasants of his time, who, realizing that they should be free of the unholy authority of their feudal masters, set out to free themselves. He wrote a book urging that they all be killed. They were. He misused the influence he had over the nobility of Germany, thus all his intellectual legacy should be blemished.

Oh, and I hate to say this, but God has condoned murder somewhat similar to the Inquisition in the past. If you have read the bible cover to cover, you must remember all those commandments to Israel to slay all them who are not Israel.

Sorry if my tone got a bit strong in places. Some of what you said skirts along the kind of thing I hear from some fellow Christians who heard from their pastor that this church believes this or that church believes that. I hear lies from Christians who believe that it is okay to lie in order to bring people to what they believe is the truth. Somewhere down that slope is the idea that murder is okay if it might help the truth. I don't believe that you are like these people. But I am sensitive to the seeming of it.

You never did address anything that I said earlier. I still want to know why my belonging to an organized religion stops me from being able to get down on my own knees and know God through prayer and scripture study. The leaders of my church don't intercede any way on my behalf. I work out my salvation with fear and trembling. And I am as much a priest of God as they are. They just have the keys to administer to the world.

Edited March 29, 2008 by SanctitasDeo