Why Do You Think Organized Religion Is Right?

[Lord Philip]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1484658' date='Mar 26 2008, 08:48 AM']I want to hear why everybody here think any kind of organized religion is right?

Organized religion has lead to massacres, death, prejudice, plots of murder, and many other things. Millions of examples through out history?

Wouldn't it be better for people to not belong to a Religion and did things on their own, to learn about God, the universe, and themselves? Why do so many people pass the buck to 'more spiritual' leaders like the Pope? Shouldn't you work out [b]your[/b] salvation with fear and trembling?

The Pope is not going to get you into heaven. Only your trust in God and your reliance on the blood of Jesus?

Wouldn't the world be in a better place if there weren't Muslims, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, and the millions of religions out there? Why not just do what Jesus asked us to do, seek the Father with all our hearts, minds, strength, and soul?

Looking forward to your answers![/quote]

Hello JesusIsMySuperHero,

There is a very simple answer to this, and a very complex answer to this. Let's start with the simple and work our way to the complex, shall we?

First, I prefer organized religion (I will assume by "Organized Religion", in the context of this forum, means the Catholic Church) because the only alternative is unorganized religion. Instead of being guided by timeless truths that do not change and have been valued by humanity since its beginning, with unorganized religion we are guided by our passions, the hippest new pop star, and any flashy thing that catches our fancy in the heat of the moment. In other words, without 'organized religion' we have no religion at all, or rather a religion of self-worship.

Let's take your "non organized religion" beliefs. Are you aware that this is simply the latest fad? Fads like this have come and gone for thousands and thousands of years. All of them have denounced the Catholic Church, some even calling it "dead." Now they are all dead, but the Church remains. The passing of time is like a river. Fads like the one you believe come and are gone in the blinking of an eye. This is because it is dead to begin with. Dead things are carried along the river and helplessly disappear into the horizon. Only a living thing can go against the current. Only a living thing can fight against the ever moving tides of time. Here the Church stands, though she has ben pronounced dead time and time again. But this is our secret: we have a God who knows the way out of the grave.

(To all the Catholics out there, I know you are just itching for me to acknowledge how thoroughly I have stolen from Chesterton in the last paragraph....please forgive me).

Let's go a little beyond this: let's start bringing in some evidence. I am guessing that since you like Jesus so much (but are not Catholic) you have read the Bible. I will not even touch upon how completely the Bible depends on the Church: let's just assume for now that the Bible stands on its own.

You seem to like Jesus a whole lot, but you only pick what you like about him and leave the rest by the wayside. In the end, it is just a religion of you instead of a true personal religion about God (which you aspire to). This is because the standard which you use to pick and choose what you believe about Jesus is what suits [b]you[/b] the most. So Jesus means nothing to you if he does not agree with you. So I don't understand why you even need Jesus at all: you didn't need him to tell you the things that you like; you already liked them. Could you please tell me why you like Jesus so much if all you get from him are things you already know?

Now let me tell you what I mean by you picking and choosing: you are ignoring everything Jesus said about the Church. Much more than mere "organized religion", I align myself to the Church. Let's look at some examples:

The classic example: the establishment of the Authority of the Petrine office and the promise of the Church's unassailable glory-- Matthew 16.17-19:

"And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven."

Let's move on. Ephesians 5.23:

"Because the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the church. He is the saviour of his body."

Did you catch that? First of all, this does not say that he is the savior of just anyone who happens to like him and a couple of his sayings. It says that he is the savior of his BODY, which is the Church. Now what could possibly by organized if a body is not organized? A body is visible, clearly identifiable, well defined with strict boundaries and works in harmony [b]because the whole body [u]submits[/u] to the head[/b]. We Catholics choose to submit to the Head who is Christ Jesus who established this Church: not another Church, not a spiritual religion which only exists inside an individual's mind. No, the Universal Church with Christ as its invisible Supreme Head and the Successor of Peter as the lowly visible head whose headship is one of service and sacrifice, not self-glorification, is the true Body of Christ.

The passage goes on to describe in graphic detail how we are the very flesh, blood and bones of Jesus Christ. You cannot be a fan of Jesus without being a fan of his body. Can you imagine me coming up to you and saying: "I really like you so much and I admire you. It is just this body of yours that I don't like. I don't like being accountable to it and I don't like the look of your eyes when I am doing something you don't like. I tell you what, I will cut your throat so that you can be a disembodied spirit. That way I can do whatever the hell I want, and when I need you I can get nice feelings from thinking about your spiritual self floating in the clouds." You would be horrified. Jesus is horrified at you doing that to him. Jesus does not want admirers. He wants members of his body.

I Timothy 3.15:

"But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."

This is the nail in the coffin. There can be nothing else to say about unorganized religion. It is the Church which is the pillar and foundation of the truth: not you, not just any individual out there who happens to feel spiritual on Wednesdays but carnal on Fridays, not even me. Only submission to Christ, which is the same thing as submission to his body, the Church, is the way for you to know the truth, and for the truth to set you free.

Religions causing wars? Why don't you read a little history. Do some research, find for me specific evidence where religion has caused an unjust war. I do not mean some religious person or cleric (you might as well say that people with eyeballs start wars), I mean a definitive, declarative statement of divine revelation which has been the catalyst for war.

What you will find is that greed, corruption, pride, and perhaps even LACK of religion were the causes of those wars. If anything, the anti-religion of Communism and Nazism in JUST THE LAST 100 YEARS is responsible for more destruction of human life than all the wars the world ever saw combined ten times over. If ANYONE needs to face up to responsibility for the loss of life, it is the atheistic or the unorganized religion folks. There is reasoning behind this: in both atheism and unorganized religion, the individual is free to define for him or herself what is right and wrong: plain and simple. There is no objective right and wrong, only relative right and wrong based on taste, evolution, and whim. Killing millions of Jews is therefore arbitrary. Why not?

Can you tell me why it is wrong to kill Jews? I don't want your opinion, I want hard facts that work within your own framework of thought. If Hitler was standing right in front of you, what would you tell him that would make him accountable to your own private organized religion? And once you did that why could he not turn around and say, "Your religion might be good for you, but my religion of torture, death, and war is good for me. Don't impose your values on me." Hellfire and damnation.

I hope this helps you understand why we follow "organized religion". We are sane, we like order instead of chaos, we are consistent, and our God has set things up this way and commanded us to obey. Plain and simple.

Farewell and God bless,

Philip

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1484754' date='Mar 26 2008, 02:00 PM']Well, if I must go with one of the teachings of the Catholic Faith, then I will show the illogically of the purgatory - not that this is the reason I don't agree with the religion - I have presented my reasons I do not accept the religion - or any religion for that matter.

Purgatory teaching says we must spend [b]time[/b] being purified before we go before God in heaven.

Here's the illogical reason that is not the truth. In heaven- there is no time? So how much time must we spend in Purgatory before we go before God? None - that's the answer - because the moment we die, our spirit goes before God.

One life, and then the judgement. It is not One life, some time in purgatory, and then the judgement.

So if that doesn't make sense, because there is no time in heaven, then it is not the truth, and if it is not the truth, it's a lie, a convienient lie to pacify people. Who is the father of all lies? Who is the father of the teaching of Purgatory? Satan.

Sorry, on that teaching alone, I will not accept the CC teachings, so I would rather share my faith in God on an individual basis, than be part of a mass religion that teaches nonsense when you understand God, the spirit, and heaven.[/quote]
You are attacking something you clearly don't understand. Wouldn't it be better if you attack what we actually believe.
Here is a primer on the topic and the scripture:
[url="http://www.scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html"]http://www.scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html[/url]

and in your reading kindly remember that the Catholic Church is older than the NT, and actually complied the Scriptures you have today out of her own collected teachings.

[withouthavingseen]

JesusIsMySuperHero,

It is as I suspected. You did not want an answer, you wanted a fight, or maybe only to rant. That's fine, but you'll excuse me kindly, I hope.

If Jesus is your superhero, and you want to get to know Him better, you will be well advised to read the four gospels, the most reliable historical documents available regarding Him. I would follow by reading Acts of the Apostles, to see how His closest, nearest disciples continued His work. Then I would read the letters of St. Paul to see the challenges that faced the earliest Christians - they are familiar to us today.

God bless.

[Lord Philip]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1484754' date='Mar 26 2008, 11:00 AM']Well, if I must go with one of the teachings of the Catholic Faith, then I will show the illogically of the purgatory - not that this is the reason I don't agree with the religion - I have presented my reasons I do not accept the religion - or any religion for that matter.

Purgatory teaching says we must spend [b]time[/b] being purified before we go before God in heaven.

Here's the illogical reason that is not the truth. In heaven- there is no time? So how much time must we spend in Purgatory before we go before God? None - that's the answer - because the moment we die, our spirit goes before God.

One life, and then the judgement. It is not One life, some time in purgatory, and then the judgement.

So if that doesn't make sense, because there is no time in heaven, then it is not the truth, and if it is not the truth, it's a lie, a convienient lie to pacify people. Who is the father of all lies? Who is the father of the teaching of Purgatory? Satan.

Sorry, on that teaching alone, I will not accept the CC teachings, so I would rather share my faith in God on an individual basis, than be part of a mass religion that teaches nonsense when you understand God, the spirit, and heaven.[/quote]

Time is not an essential teaching of the doctrine of Purgatory. Cleansing is, though. And cleansing is not merely something to do with Purgatory: cleansing is the heart of what God gives to humanity.

[SanctitasDeo]

[quote]I want to hear why everybody here think any kind of organized religion is right?

Organized religion has lead to massacres, death, prejudice, plots of murder, and many other things. Millions of examples through out history?

Wouldn't it be better for people to not belong to a Religion and did things on their own, to learn about God, the universe, and themselves? Why do so many people pass the buck to 'more spiritual' leaders like the Pope? Shouldn't you work out your salvation with fear and trembling?

The Pope is not going to get you into heaven. Only your trust in God and your reliance on the blood of Jesus?

Wouldn't the world be in a better place if there weren't Muslims, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, and the millions of religions out there? Why not just do what Jesus asked us to do, seek the Father with all our hearts, minds, strength, and soul?

Looking forward to your answers![/quote]

I belong to an organized religion, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I don't understand why you think that by belonging to an organized religion, I am in any way passing the buck to God's Prophet, or to any bishop or priesthood leader I have.

I am working out my own salvation with fear and trembling. I read the scriptures on my own, and pray on my own, and it was alone, on my knees, that I found God and His Son. This is all very possible within the context of organized religion. I am not, and have never been, any sort of mindless drone blindly following my leaders without thought.

Organized religion has not led to war, etc. any more than government has. In fact, government is kind of a prerequisite to war. Maybe we should outlaw government.

I believe that the--organized--religion I belong to is necessary because Jesus thought so, when he organized the church. I believe that Abraham didn't go it alone. I believe that he was part of a church. He was the patriarch of his family, and the head of that part of the church even as Adam was.

What is there about organized religion that stops me from doing what Jesus said, and seeking the Father with all my hearts, minds, strength, and soul? It is what I do every day.

[scardella]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1484658' date='Mar 26 2008, 10:48 AM']I want to hear why everybody here think any kind of organized religion is right?[/quote]

In the Bible, God is a God of order, cf Genesis 1. If He created the natural order, and He created the Law, and He created Man who instinctively orders himself, why would worship be any different?

[quote]Organized religion has lead to massacres, death, prejudice, plots of murder, and many other things. Millions of examples through out history?[/quote]

Individuals have committed massacres, death, prejudice, plots of murder and many other things. Millions of examples of these crimes were committed by individuals. I admit it is rather tongue-in-cheek, but we're worse off if we stand alone. (As a matter of fact, we'd be coagulated milk, because the coagulated milk stands alone.)

[quote]Wouldn't it be better for people to not belong to a Religion and did things on their own, to learn about God, the universe, and themselves? Why do so many people pass the buck to 'more spiritual' leaders like the Pope? Shouldn't you work out [b]your[/b] salvation with fear and trembling?

The Pope is not going to get you into heaven. Only your trust in God and your reliance on the blood of Jesus?[/quote]

How would we know about Jesus if we had not heard it from another? (Faith comes from what is heard." - some Pauline epistle) Who would have settled the debate as to the contents of the Bible? Who would have continued to copy the manuscripts?

It's quite evident that Jesus Himself imposed order among his followers. Amongst his many disciples, there was a group of 72. He also hand picked the Apostles, and chose Peter to be the head; if you doubt that, then you at least can tell that several apostles enjoyed more intimacy than the others (Peter, James and John).

Furthermore, even among the Apostles that Jesus picked, there was a traitor, Judas. John's Gospel says that he used to steal from the contributions. He betrayed Jesus. If Jesus chose Apostles, even including one that would do evil for all the world to remember, why should we choose otherwise?

[quote]Wouldn't the world be in a better place if there weren't Muslims, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, and the millions of religions out there? Why not just do what Jesus asked us to do, seek the Father with all our hearts, minds, strength, and soul?

Looking forward to your answers![/quote]

[dairygirl4u2c]

if you want to get into specifics like purgatory, i'd recommend you start threads on each topic.
you've picked the right place to come to, if you want to learn the specifics of the catholic religion. i don't know of any website that is better for that.
after probing the religion, i think you'll see it's more formidable than you probably thought to begin with.
not to be insultful to what you know, but i'd guess most people here who'd knowledgable debate with you have probably heard it all. but, perhpas you too will teach people here something new.
just be sure to ask the question, and stick with it, and you'll go far.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i'd also recommend approaching the teachings as if the argument for it is plausible, then don't automatically assume it's wrong.
then go to the next one. and do the same plausibility test.
from my experience, the whole of catholic teaching is plausible.
right now, i tend to disagree with some of it, and some things i have not resolved and does not fare well with their claims so i remain non-catholic. but i have not completely disowned the idea that they might be right.


1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for "suffer loss" in the Greek is "zemiothesetai." The root word is "zemioo" which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).

1 Cor. 3:15 – further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, "but only" (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase "but only" (or “yet so”) in the Greek is "houtos" which means "in the same manner." This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This arguably proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

---------
i'd also look at the deuterocanonical books and read where they prayed for the dead. "It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead." (2 Maccabees 12:46
now, you might question the validity of those books, but that would only lead you to looking into whether the bible you have now is complete, and your basis for thinking that.

from what i've gathered so far, the catholic and orthodox have the best arguments for the deuterocanonical books, because the council that made the canon listed the deuterocanonical books are part of the "canon", to my understanding.
i still have a lot more questions, but.

--------
some people also say that these passages above only mean that those who are justified yet sanctified are punished and are awareded proportionate with their works.... ie saved by faith alone but faith is never alone, and all those "works rewards" versuses from st paul in romans.
the problem with that though, is that those same ideas could be said to be purgatory, the doctrine isnt exclusive to those ideas. the only problems is that catholic teach different on sanctification and justification, but that's not so much contingent with purgatory as it is a related but separate doctrine to purgatory.

now, if you said it was contingent, faith/works and purgatory, i'd want to know where you get that from. it doesn't seem like justification is being finished in purgatory so much as sanctification. i've heard theologians say final justification is at death. (and that rings true with the catholic idea that purgatory is like a porch to heaven, cause you're already at that point saved, and the teaching that your sins are not being forgiven but rather you are making amends) but whatever the case, remember that the doctrine and most, are not defined to the extreme areas, which is where theologians live in thought, and os don't let yourself get too confused when the boundaries of the doctrine are fuzzy.
(edit, well if you have temporal aspects to be cleansed, i could see saying you are saved but not justified, but that's an awkward state of being, if that were possible... i've not heard of saved but not justified (aside from redemption thelogy but that's another issue))

and that'd only cause you to ask whether your ideas on santification and justificatio nare true or not. and there are formidable beliefs about that, if you want me to describe them.

Edited March 26, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[rkwright]

dairy I swear you are sounding more and more Catholic with every post...

[Slappo]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1484806' date='Mar 26 2008, 11:18 AM']dairy I swear you are sounding more and more Catholic with every post...[/quote]

I think he can defend the Catholic faith better then most Catholics! Dairy, want a job at my church?

Seriously... the one thing that drives me up the wall about us Catholics is our lack of knowledge (well... not those on phatmass... but worldwide . Really... we have the fullness of truth yet don't bother to learn it?!!!

God love you,
Marcus

[dairygirl4u2c]

just fyi, the path i prefer to take in attacking the CC is asking whether it's contradicted itself. if it's what it claims, it cannot have did that. in two thousand years, you'd think it has.

and i could get into some of the issues i have, if you want me to. i think it'd be better for you to ask the questions and learn on your own for awhile first though.

Edited March 26, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[Socrates]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1484658' date='Mar 26 2008, 09:48 AM']I want to hear why everybody here think any kind of organized religion is right?[/quote]
So, you're saying you think disorganized religion is better?

[quote]Organized religion has lead to massacres, death, prejudice, plots of murder, and many other things. Millions of examples through out history?[/quote]
Quite a vague claim.
First of all, I don't believe in "organized religion" as some general principle. I believe specifically in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church founded by Jesus Christ and handed down from His Apostles.
I'm not going to be an apologist for Islam, Hinduism, or other false religions, and whatever they do is irrelevent to my faith.

[quote]Wouldn't it be better for people to not belong to a Religion and did things on their own, to learn about God, the universe, and themselves? Why do so many people pass the buck to 'more spiritual' leaders like the Pope? Shouldn't you work out [b]your[/b] salvation with fear and trembling?

The Pope is not going to get you into heaven. Only your trust in God and your reliance on the blood of Jesus?[/quote]
You're right. The Pope can't save anybody's soul. Jesus Christ alone saves. The Pope merely hands down the teaching authority Jesus Christ gave to Peter:
"And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and [b]upon this rock I will build my church[/b], and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (Matt. 16:18).

Note, Jesus founded a [b]Church[/b]. I'd suggest reading the Acts of the Apostles, which clearly shows the original Christians acted as a Church, a community, an organization. They met to decide on doctrinal matters. It wasn't "every man for himself."

[quote]Wouldn't the world be in a better place if there weren't Muslims, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, and the millions of religions out there?[/quote]
Well, most of the world's people follow one of these religions.
While you accuse "religion" of being responsible for the world's murders and other ills, the record of the irreligious is certainly no better.
Atheistic Communism was responsible for far more murders and other attrocities than all the religions of the world put together; it was responsible for over 100 million deaths by most estimates.
The Communists have always been enemies of "organized religion" and are officially atheistic.
And Adolf Hitler had rejected the Church, and instead chose to "do things on his own." Certainly neither he nor the world was the better because of it.

Edited March 27, 2008 by Socrates

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1484740' date='Mar 26 2008, 05:42 PM']I don't like the violence happening because of Organized religion. If there was no such thing as Protestants and Catholics, then those murders wouldn't have happened. . .

But people who want power will ensure people do things their way.[/quote]

You contradict yourself here.

First of all you say that these murders wouldn't have taken place if Catholicism and Protestantism didn't exist.

Then you say that 'people who want power will ensure people do things their way'.

And lust for power has nothing to do with organised religion. Lust for power can take many different shapes, from the abusive spouse to the overambitious journalist with the poison pen. Anybody who comes into contact with other human beings has the power to inflict damage on them. This is not restricted to, [i]or caused by[/i], organised religion.

I am part of an organised community of believers because, as a human being, I need companionship and support. We aren't designed to 'go it alone'. We do need other people.

Catholics don't believe that the pope is in any way 'holier' than we are. There have been some downright sinful popes. It's the office that's holy. Saying that listening to other people for spiritual teaching and guidance is undervaluing your own relationship with God is like saying you should never go to a close family member for advice or support on anything. [i]Be quiet, Mum, you're not an authority on this. I'm doing it my own way.[/i] That sounds horribly cold and selfish. I am glad to be part of this wonderful Catholic community - the body of Christ with its many members - and I know that we're all valuable working parts of it.

[Slappo]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1484813' date='Mar 26 2008, 11:29 AM']just fyi, the path i prefer to take in attacking the CC is asking whether it's contradicted itself. if it's what it claims, it cannot have did that. in two thousand years, you'd think it has.

and i could get into some of the issues i have, if you want me to. i think it'd be better for you to ask the questions and learn on your own for awhile first though.[/quote]

I'm a Junior Theology major with acceptance to an accelerated graduate program at the best undergraduate theology program in the United States (Not sure that they have the best grad program, but it is a good one). It isn't that *I* don't bother learning my faith, or have yet to learn my faith, its that a majority of my Catholic brothers and sisters are ignorant of Church teaching.

Send me a PM with what you think the Church has contradicted itself on. I think the ends don't justify the means contradiction has been well enough refuted already though in other threads of yours. As Al has said several times we must determine first whether or not the means are evil and withholding truth even for the purpose of deception is not necessarily lying. I'm sure you of course know it has to be infallible Church teaching in contradiction for it to hold any relevance as disciplines and the thoughts of Catholic theologians hold no weight in the line of contradiction.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i don't think i am allowed to PM members, as i'm non-catholic.
those are not my beefs with the CC. also i've never really thought it contradicted itself on that stuff. fyi, i don't think anyone has debunked anyone on that stuff though; it's just differences of opinion.

dairygirl4u2c@yahoo.com

Edited March 27, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c