Why Do You Think Organized Religion Is Right?

[hoosieranna]

What led you to the conclusion that 6 is the number of man? Sounds a bit random.

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='Nadezhda' post='1506913' date='Apr 22 2008, 05:35 PM']What led you to the conclusion that 6 is the number of man? Sounds a bit random.[/quote]

What day was man made on - day 6
How many tribes were in Israel - 12 - 6 times 2.
Man is to work how many days in a week, according to God - Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.
Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest: that thine ox and thine ass may rest, and the son of thy handmaid, and the stranger, may be refreshed.
How many years shall a man be a slave - If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.
How many years shall a field be used for planting - And six years thou shalt sow thy land, and shalt gather in the fruits thereof:
There are numerous examples where God wanted 6 things for the tabernacle made by Israel, because that is where men interacted with God.

I could go on and on showing that God's interactions with us have had the number 6 involved, including the day God created man.

So, six must be a very important number when it comes between man and God

Also, this last scripture should one hundred per cent declare man's number is six.

Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: [b]for it is the number of a man[/b]; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Six is an important number to God when it comes to men, and so I will stick with six is the number of man, and through that I understand that 666 is the number of the beast because man is trying to make himself God.

[Deb]

If you are actually looking at a number as your theory for all then there could be many numbers to be used. Revelations itself uses the number seven constantly. The passage you quoted in the Catholic translation is, "for it is the number of a person." not a man or men.

The book of revelation is more than likely regarding the time it was written rather than a future prediction. At that time, many believed that Nero was not really dead but that he was going to return with an army. As he was so feared because of his horrifying acts against the Christians, he was coded as 666 which is his name. This is far more likely due to only one reference to that number.

The beast has been referred to many people over time and many thiings. If in 2000 years of history of the church hasn't been willing to make a definite response on what it means, I am not sure how you did.

Now, if you take the square root of the beast, 25.8069758 and divide it by the binary code of the beast, which is 1010011010 and then multiply it by 00666 (zip code of the beast) you will get Satan. Not man. Nope. No way, Jose.

In case you are interested, there are 30 references to the number 7 in revelations and only 5 of the number 6.

Edited April 23, 2008 by Deb

[ironmonk]

Ok...

Even thought post 128 was ignored, here's a little learnin fo ya....
The most reasonable explination I've heard about the number is...
7 is the perfect number
3 is the number of God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit - aka The Trinity (a doctine of the Catholic Church))
6 is the number of man, falling just short of perfect (7).

6, three times (666) is man trying to make himself god.


Prophecies in the Scriptures can have more than one meaning. The book of Revelation has many applications... It applied to the time of Nero, it applies to the end of the world as we know it, and the Mass is detailed in it... I highly suggest reading "The Lambs Supper - The Mass Heaven On Earth" by Scott Hahn.


God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited April 23, 2008 by ironmonk

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='ironmonk' post='1503641' date='Apr 19 2008, 07:40 PM']Simply saying "organized religion is right" is wrong. Only the Catholic Church is right, because it was the Church established by Christ. Other organized religions have some truths to them, but they also have many errors. Only the Catholic Church has the successor of Peter. John 21:15-17
No it hasn't. People have lead people to massacres, death, prejudice, plots of murder, and many other things.

[b]True. But the reason many have done that is to have power over the people.[/b]

If you are trying to refer to the Crusades, there were 11 of them. The first eight were just, and commissioned by the Pope to win the Holy Land which was taken by savages. The last few Crusades were the king trying to expand his kingdom disguised as a Crusade.
That is not what Christ wanted. That is not what Christ taught.

[b]I wouldn't say so on the first eight were just as they were commissioned by the Pope. Unless, you mean he couldn't have been wrong doing that? What if what he decided upon was iniquity? What if God didn't want any crusades at all, and the Pope went against his choice? I wouldn't want to be the Pope who did that![/b]

[b]St. Matt 28:18 [/b]
[color="#8B0000"]Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. [/color]
[b]19 [/b][color="#8B0000"]Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, [/color]
[b]20 [/b][color="#8B0000"]teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age[/color]."[/b]

[b]So, if anybody teaches people about God and the saviour, and baptizes them should be in the Church God created. To say that someone who isn't part of the Catholic Church who does this is not in God's church is pretty arrogant? What makes you right? Your religious teachings.[/b]

My old professor said that when we here something from some, consider where it comes from? Does the Catholic Church have an vested interest in making sure that everybody considers them the true church? Yes. Could it be then the fact people can say, hey - just pray and read your bible on your own as a threat, a threat that can't be fought, like other forms of denominationalism?

I have no offical religion, other than I am a follower of Jesus Christ. I would do all that he asks me of.

[b]Luke 10:16[/b] "[color="#8B0000"]He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me[/color]"

[b]I do not deny that Jesus Christ died on the cross, and that he has a group of spiritually born people born from above doing his will on earth. Those people are the church. They transcend all things because they are God's chosen, and as Scripture says, there are few and far in between. They might be serving God at an organized church, and they might be serving God in some unothorodox way.

I have friends, just to let you know, who have seen Jesus open one of the seal judgments in heaven. When he told me, I was just blown away. Anybody who sees different visions, if you can't find what you saw in scripture, than it might not be of God, because my friend said the only visions he had are ones that can be read about in the scriptures.

He doesn't belong to the Catholic Church either, and he was the first person that honestly told me that going to a church is hindering many people's spiritual growth before God.[/b]

[b]St Matt 18:17[/b] (Jesus said) [color="#8B0000"]If he refuses to listen to them, [b][u]tell the church[/u][/b]. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.[/color]

What does the Scripture say that the Pillar and Foundation of Truth is? Answer, The Church....

[b]That is because God writes his laws on the hearts of the repentant. I know the truth, because it is written on my heart, and it can never be taken from me ever. Since I am a believer in Jesus Christ and I have repented of my sins, I am part of the church, and therefore I have those laws written on my heart, guiding me through the ways I should go through God's still small voice.[/b]

[b]1 Tim 3:15[/b]
But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is [u]the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth[/u].

I am a believer, and so I am part of the household of God.

[b]Acts 8:30-35[/b] - And Philip running thither, heard him reading the prophet Isaias. And he said: Thinkest thou that thou understandest what thou readest? 31Who said: And how can I, unless some man shew me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. 32And the place of the scripture which he was reading was this: He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb without voice before his shearer, so openeth he not his mouth. In humility his judgment was taken away. His generation who shall declare, for his life shall be taken from the earth? 34And the eunuch answering Philip, said: I beseech thee, of whom doth the prophet speak this? of himself, or of some other man? 35Then Philip, opening his mouth, and beginning at this scripture, preached unto him Jesus.

[b]Okay, I have told people about Jesus too. I must be part of the church.[/b]

[b]2 Peter 1:20 [/b]- Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.

[b]Wow, that says all scripture is divine, because man wasn't really part of the process to write it. Remember, it says no prophecy of scripture is made - not subject too - private interpretation. Wow, thanks for the exact wording.[/b]

[b]2 Peter 3:16[/b] - As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.

[b]Before my friend taught me a lot about iniquity, I have to say that I am guilty of that prophecy.[/b]

[b]Ephesians 2:20[/b]
having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,

[b]The corner stone is the far most important stone, as it keeps the foundation from crumbling. So Jesus is much more important than the apostles ever were, as if there was no Jesus, there would be no apostles to build a group of believers on.

Remember the apostles are nothing special. They are men like you and me. So, I don't hold them in any higher esteem. The only one I esteem is Jesus.[/b]

[b]Revelation 21:14[/b]
And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

We must follow the Church that Christ built on the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets.
What gets us to Heaven is that Christ died for our sins. What the Pope does is the same thing Peter did, tends the Lord's sheep St. John 21:15-17

[b]Yes, they were the first, and through that, they are the last as well, because the last is first, and the first is last. Just to let you know, my one friend spiritually named me Peter. I guess I am the same as your first 'Pope', not that I am that important. God is the only important one.

The world would be a better place if everyone actually followed their religion teachings.

The world would be even better than that if everyone was in the Church God built on the Apostles which is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth - The Catholic Church - and actually followed the teachings.
Please see the above verses I quoted, we are doing what Christ told us to do... in the Church that He built to Teach us about Him... Guided by the Holy Spirit and Never to be Overcome.

[b]But all of them had the attitude, follow me as I follow Christ. Am I to follow people who are not following Christ anymore.

Jesus would be against the central banks, because they are an abomination to scripture, as it allows rich men to control nations by putting them into debt, which is 100 per cent against God's word in proverbs 22:7, the rich ruleth over the pour, and the borrower is servant of the lender, teaching us personal responsibility with our finances, as those we owe money too are unrelenting masters.

Has the Pope ever condemned the Central banks for stealing the wealth of the nations from under them? Has he campaigned for their removal on the world scene? No.

Hmmm, is the Pope following Jesus and standing on scripture?[/b]

[b]St. Matt 16:18[/b] "[color="#8B0000"]And so I say to you, you are Peter (Kephas), and upon this rock (Kephas) I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.[/color]"
[b]19 [/b][color="#8B0000"]I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven[/color]."

[b]There were a few pagans who thought they were going to have some fun on December 27th, 2007, thinking they are better than God and his children, and I did some binding and loosing that night. . .
Any time you work something with the gifts of the spirit, better make sure it conforms to scripture. The gates of hell can press against me, but I can stand my ground, because I can bind their advances, and turn the forces of heaven loose on them.[/b]

[b]John 1:42[/b]
Then he brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, "[color="#8B0000"]You are Simon the son of John; you will be called Kephas[/color]" (which is translated Peter).

Kephas is Aramaic for Rock.

[b]So you are saying your church is built only on Peter? I would say, do what Peter did, follow only what Jesus had to say.[/b]

[b]Matt 5:13 [/b]
"[color="#8B0000"]You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot. [/color]

[b]That is the unfortunate fact about organized religion now a days. It has lost its medicinal properties, and as a result, it will be trampled underfoot.[/b]

[b]14 [/b][color="#8B0000"] You are the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden. [/color]
[b]15[/b][color="#8B0000"] Nor do they light a lamp and then put it under a bushel basket; it is set on a lampstand, where it gives light to all in the house[/color].

[b]Cool, that is why most people know I am a follower of God, because I wear it proudly. Every time someone sees me say grace before each of my meals, someone sees. Each time everybody sees me stand against corruption, someone sees.

The True Church that Jesus built will be visable for all to see, that it has been visible since the time of the Apostles... The Catholic Church is the only Church that is 2000 years old... The Catholic Church is the "City set on a Mountain that cannot be hidden." All through history, the Catholic Church has been there, all other Christian churches are off shots of the Catholic Church.

Not true. . .

I have meet a group people who have been followers of Jesus Christ since the times of the apostles, who weren't Catholic. . . I'll let you stew on that one for a while.
[/b]
[b]John 14:16 [/b]
[color="#8B0000"]And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always,[/color]
[b]17 [/b][color="#8B0000"]the Spirit of truth, 9 which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you.[/color]
[b]18 [/b][color="#8B0000"]I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. [/color]
...
[b]26 [/b][color="#8B0000"]The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name--he will teach you everything and remind you of all that (I) told you. [/color]
[b]2 Timoty 3:14 [/b]
But you, remain faithful to what you have learned and believed, [b][u]because [/u][/b][u]you know from whom you learned it, [/u]
[b]15 [/b]and that from infancy you have known (the) sacred scriptures, which are capable of giving you wisdom for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
[b]16 [/b] All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

[b]2 Thess 2:15 [/b]
Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.

[b]2 Tim 2:2[/b]
And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well.

[b]1 Corin 11:2 [/b]
I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you.
God Bless,
ironmonk[/quote]

[b]Certainly, you have a tonne of scriptures for me to comment on. Especially the traditions ones. Don't let your traditions be your tomb though. There will be many catholics who will say, I had eucrist every single week, and Jesus will say, I never knew you.

If you think what you do impresses Jesus, it is your heart that impresses him. He will not accept someone being puffed up, saying, I did this, and I did that to him. He will listen to, Jesus, thank you for getting me through all the hardships I went through in life, and thank you for you dying on the cross for me. I thank you for all that you have done. I love you.

I am a filthy sinner, and I don't deserve anything but hell. I thank God that he sent his son for my salvation.[/b]

Edited April 23, 2008 by JesusIsMySuperHero

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1506898' date='Apr 22 2008, 06:32 PM']If I did, I haven't suffered any side effects of one. I am completely healthy. I work on the telephones, so my speech is good. I have a great memory still- most of the time, I remember people's phone number without much of an issue. I also have full mobility. Goes to show, God protects his own. Don't mess with one of God's children. He's there to protect you, and ensure you are safe.

But, I have realized what 666 really is.

It could have been the numerical value of Nero's name. It could also be something most people talk about every single day - playing God,

6 is the number of man, and God is a trinity, so 666 is Man declaring himself God, by taking control of the environment, taking control of nature, and taking control of mans destiny. I think of the system of the beast will be one that is suppose to take care of all your needs, which will lead everybody away from God, because we have become self sufficient.

Eugenics is an essential part of that plan, as it allows those in control to decide what kind of individual gets born.[/quote]
I've heard 6 being the number of man as well. That's not really new. But It's good you caught onto that. It is the numerical value of Nero's name though. It doesn't have to be either or. Nero himself was a man who as you speculate, declared himself a god (litterally), took control of nature (no doubt he was avid in construction of monuments, gardens, towns which requires moving earth), and finally Nero worked to control people's destinies--mainly the early Christians (by trying to kill them off for not worshiping him) and the "barbarians".

So anywho, I enjoy a bit of scriptural exegesis as much as the next, but how bout back on topic? I won't further this tangent any more

[Mercy me]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1507087' date='Apr 22 2008, 09:37 PM'][b]
If you think what you do impresses Jesus, it is your heart that impresses him. He will not accept someone being puffed up, saying, I did this, and I did that to him. He will listen to, Jesus, thank you for getting me through all the hardships I went through in life, and thank you for you dying on the cross for me. I thank you for all that you have done. I love you.

I am a filthy sinner, and I don't deserve anything but hell. I thank God that he sent his son for my salvation.[/b][/quote]

Are you saying that as long as I am truly grateful for Him saving me then I can continue to live as I want?

I have learned when dealing with people to pay closer attention to what they do than what they say. Are you saying that what we do in our lives means nothing?

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='Mercy me' post='1507945' date='Apr 23 2008, 08:35 PM']Are you saying that as long as I am truly grateful for Him saving me then I can continue to live as I want?

I have learned when dealing with people to pay closer attention to what they do than what they say. Are you saying that what we do in our lives means nothing?[/quote]

To immortalize the words of Paul - God forbid.

But one who would say, thank you for all that you have gotten me through shows a heart of humility. I am sorry you don't see it like that.

Edited April 24, 2008 by JesusIsMySuperHero

[ironmonk]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1508033' date='Apr 23 2008, 11:35 PM']To immortalize the words of Paul - God forbid.

But one who would say, thank you for all that you have gotten me through shows a heart of humility. I am sorry you don't see it like that.[/quote]

You seem to be confusing what "traditions" mean.

There are two types of "traditions"... 1) Traditions of men and 2) Sacred Traditions.

Christ makes a very clear distinction... [b]ONLY [/b]"traditions of [b][u]men[/u][/b]" are scoffed at. You are confusing Sacred Traditions with those of men.

You [b]cannot[/b] do whatever you wish because Christ died... you must repent to be saved. If you choose not to repent, you will not be saved. Repent means to change from our sins.

[b]St. Matt 16:24 [/b]
Then Jesus said to his disciples, "[color="#8B0000"]Whoever wishes to come after me[u] must deny himself[/u], take up his cross, and follow me.[/color]
[b]25 [/b][color="#8B0000"]For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. [/color]
[b]26 [/b][color="#8B0000"]What profit would there be for one to gain the whole world and forfeit his life? Or what can one give in exchange for his life?[/color]
[b]27 [/b][color="#8B0000"]For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will [b]repay everyone according to his conduct.[/b] [/color]

Christ clearly says that He will repay us according to our conduct. You are confusing grace and justification.


[b]St. Luke 12:47 [/b]
[color="#8B0000"]That servant who knew his master's will but did not make preparations nor act in accord with his will shall be beaten severely;[/color]
[b]48 [/b][color="#8B0000"]and the servant who was ignorant of his master's will but acted in a way deserving of a severe beating shall be beaten only lightly. Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more. [/color]

If you know the will of the Father, and do not do it, you will be punished.


[b]Acts 15:11 [/b]
On the contrary, we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they.


[b]2 Corin 11:15 [/b]
So it is not strange that his ministers also masquerade as ministers of righteousness. [b]Their end will correspond to their deeds[/b].


[b]St. Matt 10:22 [/b]
[color="#8B0000"]You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved. .[/color]

No one will be saved until the end. We must endure to the end, meaning we must do good works and have faith

[b]St. Matt 24:13 [/b]
[color="#8B0000"]But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved. [/color]

We are not saved until the end.


[b]James 2:14 [/b]
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
[b]15 [/b]If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
[b]16 [/b]and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
[b]17 [/b]So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
[b]18 [/b]Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
[b]19 [/b]You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
[b]20 [/b][b]Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? [/b]
[b]21 [/b]Was not [b]Abraham our father justified by works[/b] when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
[b]22 [/b][b]You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works[/b].
[b]23 [/b]Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."
[b]24 [/b]See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
[b]25 [/b]And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
[b]26 [/b][b]For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. [/b]

This makes if very clear that faith without works is worthless.



God Bless,
ironmonk

[dairygirl4u2c]

yes, there will be many catholics who did all the motions etc and will go to hell. even catholics teach you must be genuine etc. no one said they didn't teach that. give them the benefit of the doubt.

do you even have a point that you think definitively puts the nail on the coffin of the CC? cause you have not brought if up if you do.
you haven't even brought up something that might put the nail on the coffing.

all you rbing up is posturing about personal responsibility without actually getting into the issues (which is not personally responsible) and touchy feely stuff which isn't exclusive from teh CC.

you just kind of stumbled around regarding purgatory, and haven't mentioned anything else that you'd say you disagree with even if it's nto a definitive claim that you say is irrefutably showing the CC wrong.

i'd like to think if people knew me, they'd at least know why i'm not a catholic, my plausible issues. i'm not sure i could say taht for you though. i mean, those vague and baseless reasons i said about emtoional stuff and personal responsiblity are the only reasons i coudl think of if someone asked me why you are not a catholic.

Edited April 24, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[CatholicMax]

A word to the wise Jesusismysuperhero does not seek truth so having this discussion with him severs no purpose. One thing i learned a long time ago is that when someone does not seek truth you can keep talking but the conversation ended before it began. The onlything you can do for him is to pray for his soul and that Christ might take his hard heart and soften it.

[Galloglasses]

Less derogation guys, more debating.

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='CatholicMax' post='1508134' date='Apr 23 2008, 11:22 PM']A word to the wise Jesusismysuperhero does not seek truth so having this discussion with him severs no purpose. One thing i learned a long time ago is that when someone does not seek truth you can keep talking but the conversation ended before it began. The onlything you can do for him is to pray for his soul and that Christ might take his hard heart and soften it.[/quote]

I use to think the very same thing.

Then I realized, its not them that's wrong, but me. . .

I am not so arrogant to say, you don't believe all the right things, so you must not be saved.

Hard hearts are not in the chests of the saved, and I am saved. I know God's voice, so I know when he talks.

Edited April 24, 2008 by JesusIsMySuperHero

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1508415' date='Apr 24 2008, 01:20 PM']Less derogation guys, more debating.[/quote]

Sorry, I am not debating anymore.

I don't see any organized church that follows Jesus anymore. All of them are supremely arrogant about their beliefs, and will condemn those who don't believe the same thing. I don't say that if you are involved in an organized religion you're going to hell. What gives anybody the right to say, because I don't believe what you believe I should be pitied, looked down upon, and scolded, and ridiculed?

I have been called delusional for goodness sake. Where does someone come off making that kind of judgment?

I feel sorry for all of you, because you are blind, and are not willing to see the light of freedom. By accepting an authority other than God and his word, which is what the CC has done, you bind yourself to men to tell you how to live, men who are only interested in themselves, and not your souls.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='CatholicMax' post='1508134' date='Apr 24 2008, 01:22 AM']A word to the wise Jesusismysuperhero does not seek truth so having this discussion with him severs no purpose. One thing i learned a long time ago is that when someone does not seek truth you can keep talking but the conversation ended before it began. The onlything you can do for him is to pray for his soul and that Christ might take his hard heart and soften it.[/quote]
This is called the debate board for a reason, if you don't want to participate that is your choice.