Why Do You Think Organized Religion Is Right?

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

I want to hear why everybody here think any kind of organized religion is right?

Organized religion has lead to massacres, death, prejudice, plots of murder, and many other things. Millions of examples through out history?

Wouldn't it be better for people to not belong to a Religion and did things on their own, to learn about God, the universe, and themselves? Why do so many people pass the buck to 'more spiritual' leaders like the Pope? Shouldn't you work out [b]your[/b] salvation with fear and trembling?

The Pope is not going to get you into heaven. Only your trust in God and your reliance on the blood of Jesus?

Wouldn't the world be in a better place if there weren't Muslims, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, and the millions of religions out there? Why not just do what Jesus asked us to do, seek the Father with all our hearts, minds, strength, and soul?

Looking forward to your answers!

[ardillacid]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1484658' date='Mar 26 2008, 10:48 AM']Organized religion has lead to massacres, death, prejudice, plots of murder, and many other things. Millions of examples through out history?[/quote]
Property, money, and food have led to massacres, death, prejudice, plots of murder, and many other things. Shall we get rid of those too?

Edited March 26, 2008 by notardillacid

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='notardillacid' post='1484661' date='Mar 26 2008, 09:50 AM']Property, money, and food have led to massacres, death, prejudice, plots of murder, and many other things. Shall we get rid of those too?[/quote]

Yes, they have too, because Nations don't use common sense to create fair trade amongst other nations.

People who want control over others will kill others for that control.

So, why do you think organized religion is the way to God, and not learning of God on your own. Are you prejudiced? Do you think you are spiritually superior to me because you belong to an organized religion, and I do not?

[T-Bone _]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1484672' date='Mar 26 2008, 09:07 AM']Yes, they have too, because Nations don't use common sense to create fair trade amongst other nations.

People who want control over others will kill others for that control.

So, why do you think organized religion is the way to God, and not learning of God on your own. Are you prejudiced? Do you think you are spiritually superior to me because you belong to an organized religion, and I do not?[/quote]

The question really is, why do you think going out on your own is the way to God? Do you think you're spirtually superior to us because you do not belong to an organized religion, and we do?

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='T-Bone _' post='1484673' date='Mar 26 2008, 10:15 AM']The question really is, why do you think going out on your own is the way to God? Do you think you're spirtually superior to us because you do not belong to an organized religion, and we do?[/quote]

Good Question,

But God says if you see something acting in a way that is contrary to his ways, to come out from amongst it, and be seperate. I don't agree with anything the organized religious world has done, well . . . ever. So I should come out from amongst them, and be seperate, because God tells us to do that.

Or can you condone the fact organized religion has killed millions in the past centuries. God said the Babylon system is responsible for all murders of all time, so organized religion that has murdered millions is part of that system.

I'd rather go it alone, because I don't agree with murder.

[withouthavingseen]

Hello, JesusIsMySuperHero, my name's Ryan. It's nice to meet you.

One of the answers you received was at least a real attempt, but so far you've mostly gotten flippancy. If you're not really interested in an answer at all, but only angry at something, arrogant toward others, or have some such ill motive, then no anonymous web-answer will likely address the real issue; in which case, I'll leave it untried because I have a great deal of real work to do.

If you are sincerely seeking an answer to your question, then you deserve better than flippancy, and an answer to such a sincere question is work really worth doing. If your question is sincere, I will try to do my best to answer it from my own limited perspective.

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1484658' date='Mar 26 2008, 11:48 AM']I want to hear why everybody here think any kind of organized religion is right?[/quote]

I don't think that any kind of organized religion is right. I think that a wicked religion, well-organized, would be very, very bad. A real threat indeed to all around it. I won't even attempt to defend "organized religion," because I'm not sure what you mean by the phrase.

What I will do, if you are interested, is attempt to explain why I think organization as such is not a bad thing, even in religions; why my Catholic religion is organized into the Catholic Church; and why I belong to it even though it has a spotty history.

Would you be interested in that?

God bless.

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='withouthavingseen' post='1484706' date='Mar 26 2008, 10:57 AM']Hello, JesusIsMySuperHero, my name's Ryan. It's nice to meet you.

One of the answers you received was at least a real attempt, but so far you've mostly gotten flippancy. If you're not really interested in an answer at all, but only angry at something, arrogant toward others, or have some such ill motive, then no anonymous web-answer will likely address the real issue; in which case, I'll leave it untried because I have a great deal of real work to do.

If you are sincerely seeking an answer to your question, then you deserve better than flippancy, and an answer to such a sincere question is work really worth doing. If your question is sincere, I will try to do my best to answer it from my own limited perspective.
I don't think that any kind of organized religion is right. I think that a wicked religion, well-organized, would be very, very bad. A real threat indeed to all around it. I won't even attempt to defend "organized religion," because I'm not sure what you mean by the phrase.

What I will do, if you are interested, is attempt to explain why I think organization as such is not a bad thing, even in religions; why my Catholic religion is organized into the Catholic Church; and why I belong to it even though it has a spotty history.

Would you be interested in that?

God bless.[/quote]

Hello Ryan,

To give you some encouragement, my motives are such.

I want to express my concern about organized religion in the world because I hate murder. Evil in all shapes makes me sick to my stomach, and I can't believe the evils people preputrate on each other in the name of religion. I don't condone any such actions of either Osama Bin Laden or the US government after 9/11. Osama was lead by religious bigotry to kill 3000, and then the US government used the religious bigotry of its country to kill 1 million or more by today because we need to be afraid of the Muslim, because he's got a bomb strapped on his back ready to kill us. Patriot, religious people flock to 'defend their version of God' and their 'country' against the evil Muslim, and at the same time, it was the very same things that caused that day. . .

So, I don't have any il motives, only displeasure for the world today.

Has the Catholic religion promoted violence in the past 50 years, no. Has it caused violence in the past 50 years, yes - the IRA in Ireland killed thousands because England is Protestant. Has the Protestant religions killed Catholics for their beliefs, yes. Have they promoted that - no, but they still have, and will, and will continue to do.

Has the Muslim religion promoted the murder of innocent people in the past 50 years, yes, and it has caused a lot, as Christian missionaries are beheaded and murdered, who only want to share what God has shared with them.

This all happens because people are more motivated by their religion than God. God would not want these sickening death fest to prove which religion is right or wrong. He would want us all to learn from each other, and be like Jesus was - standing against religious and political corruption, loving our neighbours, and giving all of our lives to the Father, our hearts, minds, strength, and souls to him.

I believe the world would be a better place if there was no organized religion, as it would promote more freedom, and resonsibility for each person to pursue the life God wants for them.

[Aloysius]

It's not about organized religion, it's about discovering God by communing with others. We believe Christ instituted a Church so that we could commune with all other Christians throughout the world by means of a visible institution which would ensure that we all had a continuing common frame of reference that was clear and contemporary with us about what the whole of the Christian world believed.

"We do not seek a Christ whom we have invented, for it is only in the real communion of the Catholic Church that we encounter the real Christ." -Pope Benedict XVI

many people throughout the world have invented their own "Christs"... "Christs" who tell them adultery, abortion, and/or divorce are perfectly acceptable, "Christs" that tell them not to believe in the Trinity or not to honor the Mother of Jesus. I'm sorry, but that's not Jesus Christ telling them those things, it is Satan disguised as an angel of light. I commune into the Catholic Church because it is the organic and living Body of Christ, and to commune with it is to commune with Jesus Christ himself. Just as to hear the Apostles was to hear Christ, so too to hear those who have been sent through the ages by the Apostles is to hear Christ.

you may say that the Catholic Church is not the true body of Christ and that I have been deceived, but what you cannot say is that the true way is the individualist way, because that is incompatible with Christianity. Why not seek God on my own? Because Christ did not preach rugged individualism, that was America that has preached that. Christ told us to join together in a community and encounter Him in that way. He did not say "wherever one of you is gathered in my name, there am I", He said "wherever two or three are gathered in my name, there am I". So you may say that the Catholic Church is not the correct Church to go to, but you cannot say that the response is to seek God individually. You must commune with some "church", some "assembly", and you must seek to find out who Christ is THROUGH that church, through that assembly, or you are simply inventing your own Christ from within yourself and not trying to find Him from without, in a community which is His body.

And when you find that system, that community, that organized body of believers that all seek to show each other who Christ is, then I will tell you that my organized body of believers is correct and you will tell me that yours is correct, and we will have a disagreement. And in the debate we have over that disagreement, we will both show each other more about the real Christ than either of us could ever discover on our own. Jesus Christ is found by community, it is the only way to ensure that you have not deceived yourself or been deceived by Satan about who Christ really is.

Oh, and the IRA has killed thousands because England was persecuting Catholics and their military and police were cooperating with nationalist organizations to kill them. But that is neither here nor there, organized religion does not cause violence; were it not for the Church, rest assured that Europe would still have warred against the Middle East when it began to invade it. Were it not for the Church, the Irish still would have rebelled against England when they felt England was being unjust against them for their property rights. If anything, the Church tempers wars not encourages them. I just had a teacher of mine here in Ireland who was clearly a marxist complain about why the Church refused to encourage the Irish to rebel against the English... and there were all sorts of things that many Christian rulers wished to accomplish by violence that the Church stopped them from doing. "famines and wars will always be with you until the end of time"... it has always been the Church which in Europe were the principal peacemakers, saving Native Americans from her own Spanish sons by baptizing them, for instance. The more individualistic and less organized religions of the world simply slaughtered them to the point of near extinction, but in South America the Native American culture went through a transition into Christianity with far fewer deaths and the peoples of South America are now a mix of European and native blood, ie it was not a fully effective genocide like the protestants in the north were able to carry out.

[T-Bone _]

[quote name='JesusIsMySuperHero' post='1484675' date='Mar 26 2008, 09:20 AM']Good Question,

But God says if you see something acting in a way that is contrary to his ways, to come out from amongst it, and be separate. I don't agree with anything the organized religious world has done, well . . . ever. So I should come out from amongst them, and be separate, because God tells us to do that.

Or can you condone the fact organized religion has killed millions in the past centuries. God said the Babylon system is responsible for all murders of all time, so organized religion that has murdered millions is part of that system.

I'd rather go it alone, because I don't agree with murder.[/quote]

I actually see your point.

But being a Christian is not a solitary act. Christ founded a [i]community[/i] of believers. If one is alone, then they are vulnerable to bad influences. We need to be in a community so that our "brother can rebuke us" as Christ commanded.

[rkwright]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1484727' date='Mar 26 2008, 11:17 AM']The more individualistic and less organized religions of the world simply slaughtered them to the point of near extinction, but in South America the Native American culture went through a transition into Christianity with far fewer deaths and the peoples of South America are now a mix of European and native blood, ie it was not a fully effective genocide like the protestants in the north were able to carry out.[/quote]

Al what are you talking about here? What individualistic religions did this?

[dairygirl4u2c]

as per what al was saying.... surely Jesus isn't saying it's okay to kill babies etc. you'd agree with that.
and probably agree that a church is better than not church, to help in guidance etc.

to add to what he was saying, to argue in favor of the CC, you might contend that you can be part of a church, but don't have to be part of an officially organized church. the CC would say, and i think al would say, how do you account for the 30000 plus organizations out there? and if it's individual person's belief each, then the number of "churches" is as much as there are people who follow that system. a small church might be a little better than just you, but there's no certainty that it's being led in truth,,,, as it's just a church that's probably going to last a few decades and die out, or evolve at least.... which obviously isn't truth if it evolves.

the bottomline is that the CC stakes claim to objective truth, whereas anyone else really would have no sure claim for objectivity, but rather must rest on pursuing objectivity, while acknowledging much of what they believe may not be objectively true.
now, you might claim to have truth in the bible.... but i guess to add another argument, how do you account for all the varying beliefs out there based on the bible? completely opposing each other. you're at least pursuing objectivity from the bible, and not independant from it, but it's by definition not possible to attain what the CC could theoretically provide, objectively objective truth. not just interpreations of truth that are by definition often wrong.

now, i'd have some counter arguments to that seeing as i'm not catholic, but i'm complicated and it's mess things up. i thought i'd add to the thread to see what your response is.

Edited March 26, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1484727' date='Mar 26 2008, 11:17 AM']It's not about organized religion, it's about discovering God by communing with others. We believe Christ instituted a Church so that we could commune with all other Christians throughout the world by means of a visible institution which would ensure that we all had a continuing common frame of reference that was clear and contemporary with us about what the whole of the Christian world believed.

"We do not seek a Christ whom we have invented, for it is only in the real communion of the Catholic Church that we encounter the real Christ." -Pope Benedict XVI

many people throughout the world have invented their own "Christs"... "Christs" who tell them adultery, abortion, and/or divorce are perfectly acceptable, "Christs" that tell them not to believe in the Trinity or not to honor the Mother of Jesus. I'm sorry, but that's not Jesus Christ telling them those things, it is Satan disguised as an angel of light. I commune into the Catholic Church because it is the organic and living Body of Christ, and to commune with it is to commune with Jesus Christ himself. Just as to hear the Apostles was to hear Christ, so too to hear those who have been sent through the ages by the Apostles is to hear Christ.

you may say that the Catholic Church is not the true body of Christ and that I have been deceived, but what you cannot say is that the true way is the individualist way, because that is incompatible with Christianity. Why not seek God on my own? Because Christ did not preach rugged individualism, that was America that has preached that. Christ told us to join together in a community and encounter Him in that way. He did not say "wherever one of you is gathered in my name, there am I", He said "wherever two or three are gathered in my name, there am I". So you may say that the Catholic Church is not the correct Church to go to, but you cannot say that the response is to seek God individually. You must commune with some "church", some "assembly", and you must seek to find out who Christ is THROUGH that church, through that assembly, or you are simply inventing your own Christ from within yourself and not trying to find Him from without, in a community which is His body.

And when you find that system, that community, that organized body of believers that all seek to show each other who Christ is, then I will tell you that my organized body of believers is correct and you will tell me that yours is correct, and we will have a disagreement. And in the debate we have over that disagreement, we will both show each other more about the real Christ than either of us could ever discover on our own. Jesus Christ is found by community, it is the only way to ensure that you have not deceived yourself or been deceived by Satan about who Christ really is.

Oh, and the IRA has killed thousands because England was persecuting Catholics and their military and police were cooperating with nationalist organizations to kill them. But that is neither here nor there, organized religion does not cause violence; were it not for the Church, rest assured that Europe would still have warred against the Middle East when it began to invade it. Were it not for the Church, the Irish still would have rebelled against England when they felt England was being unjust against them for their property rights. If anything, the Church tempers wars not encourages them. I just had a teacher of mine here in Ireland who was clearly a marxist complain about why the Church refused to encourage the Irish to rebel against the English... and there were all sorts of things that many Christian rulers wished to accomplish by violence that the Church stopped them from doing. "famines and wars will always be with you until the end of time"... it has always been the Church which in Europe were the principal peacemakers, saving Native Americans from her own Spanish sons by baptizing them, for instance. The more individualistic and less organized religions of the world simply slaughtered them to the point of near extinction, but in South America the Native American culture went through a transition into Christianity with far fewer deaths and the peoples of South America are now a mix of European and native blood, ie it was not a fully effective genocide like the protestants in the north were able to carry out.[/quote]
Or the Catholics in Canada who forced the natives into camps, who are now trying to get their land back.

So they may have been more 'kind' in South America, but Catholics encouraged the murder of many in Canada. . .

I don't like the violence happening because of Organized religion. If there was no such thing as Protestants and Catholics, then those murders wouldn't have happened. . .

But people who want power will ensure people do things their way.

I don't recommend organized religion. These other religions you talk about, that's what they are - religions. People following on thought line or another.

And, just to let you know, I do commune with believers. God doesn't say how exactly you are to do that, one way or another, so I commune any way I can. I talk about God with other believers at work. Well if it only takes two people for Jesus to be in their midst, how about just staying home with your wife and kids, significant other, or family?

Sometimes, you have to go it alone. By your words, Abraham shouldn't have left his family and went to a land that God would show him? He went it alone, because God wanted him to learn of him by himself.

On the Devil appears as an angel of light, are you sure it isn't Satan who wants organized religion, telling everybody how good it is, so they stay with him, instead of taking personal responsibility for their own walk with God. After all, you can blame someone else if you don't get into heaven. I don't have that choice - it's me alone responsible for living for God. My family doesn't get me into heaven. I don't have a religion, so that won't get me into heaven. I alone as responsible for who is getting me into heaven. Or would you like to pass the buck to someone else like the Pope?

[dairygirl4u2c]

it seems to me all this talk of catholics and religions killing people is a cop out.
the religions didn't teach as a matter of faith and morals that you are to kill people. the people themselves did that. it's people, not the religions, that are largely killing people.
and if you look at it that way, you'd soon see any number of people who follow their own walk who become murderers etc.
so that's not really the argument you shold be having.

even the CC teaches that its people are sinnners, but the church itself and its teachings are not sinful or wrong.
so i think what you should be arguing is more like what i posted in my last post.
and how you're certain that the CC does not teach objective truth, and your basis for that. how you can be certain, and your arguments.

of course, i would advocate my own arguments... but only cause i dn't see anything else worth arguing about.

Edited March 26, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[Aloysius]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1484738' date='Mar 26 2008, 12:37 PM']Al what are you talking about here? What individualistic religions did this?[/quote]
the religions themselves didn't do that. sorry, I was falling into the same logical fallacy by which our religion is here being blamed for so much violence. but the majority of the English colonists in the North were breakaways from organized religions and many in the colonies were deists and such, quite individualistic... and thus the Native Americans which lived in the states (save Alaska, which was more effected by Russian Orthodox missionaries) ended up wiped out and confined to small reservations. For many of the Native American races, it was a full out genocide, for those for who it was not genocide, it was at least ethnocide.

Compare that to South America, where Catholic missionaries sought to protect the native populations as much as possible. Sure, there was a lot of bad done because Spain wanted to show its power, but the religion of Spain didn't egg that on, it hindered it and undermined it at every turn such that nowadays we see a South America with many people of mixed blood and continuing living native cultural practices.

It was the disorganization of the religions in the north which made it less able to be hindered from its full destructive force against the native populations which is why the Native Americans were much more dessimated in North America (particularly the US) than South America.

Both groups, the English colonists and the Spanish colonists, were set on spreading an empire and killing anything that got in the way of that progress. One was hindered at least partially by a strong organized religion in the Catholic Church, and the other was not. The results are plain to see. Organized Christian Community helps to curb violence and keep peace better than Christian anarchy.

[JesusIsMySuperHero]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1484743' date='Mar 26 2008, 11:46 AM']it seems to me all this talk of catholics and religions killing people is a cop out.
the religions didn't teach as a matter of faith and morals that you are to kill people. the people themselves did that. it's people, not the religions, that are largely killing people.
and if you look at it that way, you'd soon see any number of people who follow their own walk who become murderers etc.
so that's not really the argument you shold be having.

even the CC teaches that its people are sinnners, but the church itself and its teachings are not sinful or wrong.
so i think what you should be arguing is more like what i posted in my last post.
and how you're certain that the CC does not teach objective truth, and your basis for that. how you can be certain, and your arguments.

of course, i would advocate my own arguments... but only cause i dn't see anything else worth arguing about.[/quote]

Well, if I must go with one of the teachings of the Catholic Faith, then I will show the illogically of the purgatory - not that this is the reason I don't agree with the religion - I have presented my reasons I do not accept the religion - or any religion for that matter.

Purgatory teaching says we must spend [b]time[/b] being purified before we go before God in heaven.

Here's the illogical reason that is not the truth. In heaven- there is no time? So how much time must we spend in Purgatory before we go before God? None - that's the answer - because the moment we die, our spirit goes before God.

One life, and then the judgement. It is not One life, some time in purgatory, and then the judgement.

So if that doesn't make sense, because there is no time in heaven, then it is not the truth, and if it is not the truth, it's a lie, a convienient lie to pacify people. Who is the father of all lies? Who is the father of the teaching of Purgatory? Satan.

Sorry, on that teaching alone, I will not accept the CC teachings, so I would rather share my faith in God on an individual basis, than be part of a mass religion that teaches nonsense when you understand God, the spirit, and heaven.