Dating/courtships And Physical Touch

[CatherineM]

I'm female, and I wouldn't say that our first time was boring. I guess my husband is just different.

[Deb]

I can't imagine it ever being boring.

[friendofJPII]

I don't think we should be timing hugs here. That just sounds a bit legalistic.

If you want to save your first kiss for your wedding day, that's wonderful, but I think these folks should keep it to themselves. Not that many actually fulfill this vow, but for those that do go through with it, it can be a source of a spiritual pride. If you are pure, people will notice, you don't need to make an announcement.

That (no kissing) rule until marriage would not work for me. I'm Italian, we kiss everybody. Even the paperboy.
I need a kiss hello and goodbye from my sig other.

While kissing rule is somewhat arbitrary, anything below the neck is off limits, even if you are engaged. Common sense people. I think if you are really in tune with the Holy Spirit He will guide you in this area.

Edited April 14, 2008 by friendofJPII

[XIX]

[quote name='johnnydigit' post='1491166' date='Apr 2 2008, 02:20 PM']so my point, humans (and most mammals) need physical touch for developmental growth, but not as adults. interesting, i wonder why God designed it like this..[/quote]
False.

[url="http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2003-03-09-hug-usat_x.htm"]http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2003-0...-hug-usat_x.htm[/url]

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='XIX' post='1499020' date='Apr 14 2008, 01:43 PM']False.

[url="http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2003-03-09-hug-usat_x.htm"]http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2003-0...-hug-usat_x.htm[/url][/quote]
Very interesting.

[XIX]

[quote name='praying4carmel' post='1495618' date='Apr 9 2008, 03:21 PM']I think it's a wonderful idea JohnnyD, However for most women, the wedding night is less than fireworks!
It might be for the guy but for the woman alas, no. [/quote]
Really?


That's a bit depressing! You spend all of that time waiting, and then you get there, and she's like "meh..."

[Paladin D]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1498986' date='Apr 14 2008, 07:48 AM']I don't think we should be timing hugs here. That just sounds a bit legalistic.

If you want to save your first kiss for your wedding day, that's wonderful, but I think these folks should keep it to themselves. Not that many actually fulfill this vow, but for those that do go through with it, it can be a source of a spiritual pride. If you are pure, people will notice, you don't need to make an announcement.

That (no kissing) rule until marriage would not work for me. I'm Italian, we kiss everybody. Even the paperboy.
I need a kiss hello and goodbye from my sig other.

While kissing rule is somewhat arbitrary, anything below the neck is off limits, even if you are engaged. Common sense people. I think if you are really in tune with the Holy Spirit He will guide you in this area.[/quote]

Fully agree with this.

Debating over the timing of hugs and kisses, is not only legalistic, but rather borderline paranoia. It all depends on context, who you're hugging/kissing, what your intension is, and what type of hug/kiss it is. I'm not for gropping or making out, but why is it such a 'grave evil' (as some of you make it out to be) when two individuals give each other a simple kiss on cheek or lip-to-lip kiss?

[b]Context people.[/b]

Some here presented the question "Would you want seeing your girl/man kissing another man/girl?", which is too broad of a question. Am I gonna slug my girlfriend's parents because she kissed them? Let's assume that the question refers to another male within the same age group, who is not related in any way. Sure, I would be pretty mad [b]if we were dating![/b] Though am I going to get extremely upset knowing that my significant other kissed another man [b]before[/b] we met? Not really, unless I was a jealous and insecure individual. Would I be extremely upset if they went overboard and even slept togther? Absolutely!

[b]Context people.[/b]

It also depends on culture, as [b][i]friendofJPII[/b][/i] pointed out, my family and relatives exchange kisses. Of course it isn't as frequent compared to a full-blood Italian or Greek family (mixture of Polish/Italian), but it still happens. Look at societies in the Middle East and southern Europe, where kissing in public in a non-intimate matter even amongst strangers of the [b]same gender[/b] is not uncommon! Are they in sin?

[b]Context people.[/b]

If you [b]want[/b] to save your kissing until marriage, then more power to you; however, there are those (like myself) who have a different view on the subject. Does this mean I'm degrading the importance or significance of kissing? I don't think so, because I don't generalize the intent or meaning of every kiss into one category. I see no problem with two people who are dating, or especially engaged, kissing each other. I will kiss my girlfriend or fiancee, as 'a' (not the only) sign of affection for her. The kiss I will ultimately give to my future wife within the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony will be of upmost significance and importance compared to any kiss I have ever given in the past; so essentially, I never 'gave my kiss away'. Though when it comes to sexual relations, it's a nother subject matter. Sex must wait until marriage, because that is truely reserved only for your significant other.

[b]Context people.[/b]

So please do some of us a favor, keep your preference as that, a preference, not a moral blueprint for everyone to follow (unless it was mandated by the Church as Divine Teaching, but last I checked, kissing in the basic form is not sinful; however, other acts that can lead to sexual immortality are indeed sinful). I apologize if I may have offended anyone's feelings, which was not my intention, I'm simply speaking my mind.

Edited April 14, 2008 by Paladin D

[johnnydigit]

[quote name='Paladin D' post='1499083' date='Apr 14 2008, 09:26 AM'][b]Context people.[/b]

If you [b]want[/b] to save your kissing until marriage, then more power to you; however, there are those (like myself) who have a different view on the subject. Does this mean I'm degrading the importance or significance of kissing? I don't think so, because I don't generalize the intent or meaning of every kiss into one category.[/quote]

definitely context, and it's definitely acceptable in today's age, but maybe we actually could change the importance, significance, intent, and its meaning. we may not be degrading, but how about UPgrading it? i just wanted to offer the possibility of more. to take it to the next level for the glory of God. to realize that it can be done in today's world, you won't necessarily be an outcast, but rather that God will reward you in the end ten fold.

you don't have to follow the pack. you possibly have the chance to make something great, into something absolutely glorious. imagine a relationship where two devout Catholics take it to the next level and beyond, putting their trust in God and shunning the world, striving for a union which no one has ever reached before. dare i say, striving to perfect a vocation to bring your spouse to heaven.


[quote name='XIX' post='1499034' date='Apr 14 2008, 07:34 AM']Really?
That's a bit depressing! You spend all of that time waiting, and then you get there, and she's like "meh..."[/quote]

hah, yeah. well it may not become fireworks, but is it worth it to try and hope it does burst like a glorious sun? i guess one can only dream.. or maybe strive to make it a reality?

[Paladin D]

[quote name='johnnydigit' post='1499201' date='Apr 14 2008, 03:16 PM']definitely context, and it's definitely acceptable in today's age, but maybe we actually could change the importance, significance, intent, and its meaning. we may not be degrading, but how about UPgrading it? i just wanted to offer the possibility of more. to take it to the next level for the glory of God. to realize that it can be done in today's world, you won't necessarily be an outcast, but rather that God will reward you in the end ten fold.

you don't have to follow the pack. you possibly have the chance to make something great, into something absolutely glorious. imagine a relationship where two devout Catholics take it to the next level and beyond, putting their trust in God and shunning the world, striving for a union which no one has ever reached before. dare i say, striving to perfect a vocation to bring your spouse to heaven.[/quote]

It's a nice goal to set for one's self, but certainly not a requirement for one to be a better Catholic. I believe God may put it on someone's heart a personal endeavor, an aspect in their life that will help them stay closer to God and also improve their lives. It's the same reason why you have Catholics who feel called to practice various devotions in the Church. We're all striving for the same goal (Heaven), and have the same blueprint (the Church), but may have some tweaks here and there that help us get there (devotions, disciplines).

My reason for my disagreement with you is not based on peer pressure, or for social acceptance (if it was, I definately wouldn't be Catholic). It's based on my personal conviction (following the teachings of the Church), and knowing myself as a person. If you feel you should abstain from such acts, which are harmless, to better yourself in that aspect of your life, then you do it; however, this does not apply to everyone.

Compare it to Lent. We are asked to give up something that we enjoy for 40 days, to remind us that we can live without it because all we need is Christ to sustain and fulfill us. You will have ten people in the same room, and more than likely all ten of them will give up different things. I personally gave up chocolate, because I consume too much of it (addict?). Does this mean you should give up chocolate? It wouldn't be a bad idea, despite some of it's health benefits, we really don't need it in our diet to begin with. You could, but you won't, since you don't have a problem with it and only consume it in low quantities compared to me (I'm assuming, I don't know you personally).

Of course, this comparison may not make much sense, but consider the fact that overly consuming food can lead to 'gluttony', which is one of the seven deadly sins. Just as certain affectionate actions can lead to 'lust'.

If you personally feel called to do it, then do it! I'm not complacent, I just don't feel called to practice that discipline/devotion. Does this mean I'm not seeking the call to purity? No. Yours would be considered an 'extra step', it's optional, and not required by all the faithful. Just as praying the Divine Mercy Chaplet everyday is optional, even though it's a powerful devotion.

God bless, and Pax Christi.

[soccer girl =D]

i think the only thing going too far would be groping (and anything beyond that) but thats just my opinion i guess.....

[prose]

Don't people "grope" strangers? I didn't think "groping" was a mutual pleasurable thing....

[friendofJPII]

I have no problem with couples who reserve their first kiss for their wedding day. Hey, if you know that kissing will incline you to go further and you need to take that drastic measure, go ahead. Jesus said, "if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off!" Or if just want to save your first kiss for that special day. That's wonderful.

I only take issue when such couples act superior to others by announcing it, as if their relationship is somehow more pleasing to God because they are taking this step. If we feel called to make such sacrifces to God it should be done privately. Jesus also said, "don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing..." People who are truely holy don't have to act it, they just are.

I also don't think it's the "be all end all." It is possible that couple who kisses with appropriate affection could be more chaste than the couple who has made it known to the world that they are saving their first kiss for marriage.
The second couple may be constantly engaging in impure thoughts and/or conversation, who knows?

Edited April 14, 2008 by friendofJPII

[Paladin D]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1499469' date='Apr 14 2008, 07:43 PM']I have no problem with couples who reserve their first kiss for their wedding day. Hey, if you know that kissing will incline you to go further and you need to take that drastic measure, go ahead. Jesus said, "if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off!" Or if just want to save your first kiss for that special day. That's wonderful.

I only take issue when such couples act superior to others by announcing it, as if their relationship is somehow more pleasing to God because they are taking this step. If we feel called to make such sacrifces to God it should be done privately. Jesus also said, "don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing..." People who are truely holy don't have to act it, they just are.

I also don't think it's the "be all end all." It is possible that couple who kisses with appropriate affection could be more chaste than the couple who has made it known to the world that they are saving their first kiss for marriage.
The second couple may be constantly engaging in impure thoughts and/or conversation, who knows?[/quote]

Absolutely.

[johnnydigit]

[quote name='Paladin D' post='1499263' date='Apr 14 2008, 12:50 PM']Of course, this comparison may not make much sense, but consider the fact that overly consuming food can lead to 'gluttony', which is one of the seven deadly sins. Just as certain affectionate actions can lead to 'lust'.[/quote]

no it does make sense. with chocolate, i doubt it would kick up much fuss if you didn't have a problem with it to begin with, but with chastity nowadays, it is a much more severe problem in our society than chocolate addiction ( ), and i wish there would be more people willing to take a stand and make a testimony. good plugin opportunity for Theology of the Body, too.

oh how pleasing to God would it be if you didn't even get aroused by kissing, but you chose to abstain just for the testimony. methinks that after your wedding, something that would have been common to both you is now spectacular! like diving into a pool of Ghirardelli chocolate after having abstained from it for so long. whether you had an addiction or not, that's gotta be good!

[XIX]

I have a few quirky things that I plan to save for my wedding day.

Edited April 15, 2008 by XIX