jckinsman Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 [quote name='picchick' post='1748631' date='Jan 11 2009, 01:22 AM']Vacuuming should not be done if it causes arousal with your date/coutshipper. However, to clean a bathroom for your date/courtshipper would mos def not be crossing the line. In fact I am in full support of it. I will even hand them the toliet bowl cleaner brush.[/quote] Well since it's my husband,do I now have the right to make him wear an apron when he does it?........providing he's wearing something underneth if the kids are home! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jckinsman Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 [quote name='Slappo' post='1748659' date='Jan 11 2009, 02:14 AM']Here is the HUGE issue I have with the "if it happens to arouse you don't do it" way of thinking... When I first started dating my girlfriend, holding her hand was arousing. Why? Because it was an area of physical touch I hadn't experienced with her before and I became acutely aware of her fingers embracing mine, the feel of her skin, and the warmth of another hand. Now... it doesn't at all because it is something that I'm used to experiencing. Things that are truly meant to be arousing don't stop being arousing after your with someone for a couple months, otherwise most babies wouldn't have been conceived. Over Christmas break all my girlfriend and I could do was talk on the phone (completely pure conversations... but simply the tone change in her voice when she felt loved could do the trick so to say)... sometimes talking to her on the phone itself was arousing... therefore should I... not talk to my girlfriend? That would seem to make it hard to court her. Sometimes when I see her smile I might really just recognize her true and pure beauty as a daughter of God and even that can be arousing. Therefore, since seeing her smile can be arousing, and talking to her can be arousing, holding her hand can be arousing... I shouldn't touch, look at, or talk to her. Arousing doesn't necessarily mean sexual thoughts. Arousal itself is not a bad thing unless intentional without proper conditions being met (I.E married and pursuing marital love). A male can wake up and be aroused, or have an arousing dream in the night, does that mean he should neither sleep nor wake up? Of course not...[/quote] Just apply catholic duct tape,it works like a charm,theres not one arousing thing about ripping it off! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 [quote name='Slappo' post='1748659' date='Jan 11 2009, 01:14 AM']Here is the HUGE issue I have with the "if it happens to arouse you don't do it" way of thinking... When I first started dating my girlfriend, holding her hand was arousing. Why? Because it was an area of physical touch I hadn't experienced with her before and I became acutely aware of her fingers embracing mine, the feel of her skin, and the warmth of another hand. Now... it doesn't at all because it is something that I'm used to experiencing. Things that are truly meant to be arousing don't stop being arousing after your with someone for a couple months, otherwise most babies wouldn't have been conceived. Over Christmas break all my girlfriend and I could do was talk on the phone (completely pure conversations... but simply the tone change in her voice when she felt loved could do the trick so to say)... sometimes talking to her on the phone itself was arousing... therefore should I... not talk to my girlfriend? That would seem to make it hard to court her. Sometimes when I see her smile I might really just recognize her true and pure beauty as a daughter of God and even that can be arousing. Therefore, since seeing her smile can be arousing, and talking to her can be arousing, holding her hand can be arousing... I shouldn't touch, look at, or talk to her. Arousing doesn't necessarily mean sexual thoughts. Arousal itself is not a bad thing unless intentional without proper conditions being met (I.E married and pursuing marital love). A male can wake up and be aroused, or have an arousing dream in the night, does that mean he should neither sleep nor wake up? Of course not...[/quote] I'm glad somebody said this as well as you just did. From what I can understand, it's mostly the intent to arouse for the sake of arousal... like you said, without the conditions being met. That's the central question, and I'm sure that's not your issue, nor is it mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappo Posted January 12, 2009 Author Share Posted January 12, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1749057' date='Jan 11 2009, 07:20 PM']I'm glad somebody said this as well as you just did. From what I can understand, it's mostly the intent to arouse for the sake of arousal... like you said, without the conditions being met. That's the central question, and I'm sure that's not your issue, nor is it mine.[/quote] I just hate it when people say "If it's arousing don't do it" when it should really be "If it is done for the purpose of arousing, then don't do it". But then again... you could always make out and not have the "intention" of arousing each other, but making out imo would still be wrong.. there is no simple "if it does this, then don't do it" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 [quote name='Slappo' post='1749340' date='Jan 11 2009, 11:59 PM']I just hate it when people say "If it's arousing don't do it" when it should really be "If it is done for the purpose of arousing, then don't do it". But then again... you could always make out and not have the "intention" of arousing each other, but making out imo would still be wrong.. there is no simple "if it does this, then don't do it"[/quote] More than that, there really shouldn't be a hard and fast rule within the common sense limits of... well no details needed here. Some people should avoid far more than others, just because by the nature of their crosses, they're more likely to fall into sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1749426' date='Jan 12 2009, 09:54 AM']More than that, there really shouldn't be a hard and fast rule within the common sense limits of... well no details needed here. Some people should avoid far more than others, just because by the nature of their crosses, they're more likely to fall into sin.[/quote] Ok...now we are going in circles because how ever many pages back someone already said this. What some people cannot do should not be forced on someone else. I'll find it....and post it....repost it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 [quote name='Paladin D' post='1499083' date='Apr 14 2008, 10:26 AM']Debating over the timing of hugs and kisses, is not only legalistic, but rather borderline paranoia. It all depends on context, who you're hugging/kissing, what your intension is, and what type of hug/kiss it is. I'm not for gropping or making out, but why is it such a 'grave evil' (as some of you make it out to be) when two individuals give each other a simple kiss on cheek or lip-to-lip kiss? If you [b]want[/b] to save your kissing until marriage, then more power to you; however, there are those (like myself) who have a different view on the subject. Does this mean I'm degrading the importance or significance of kissing? I don't think so, because I don't generalize the intent or meaning of every kiss into one category. I see no problem with two people who are dating, or especially engaged, kissing each other. I will kiss my girlfriend or fiancee, as 'a' (not the only) sign of affection for her. The kiss I will ultimately give to my future wife within the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony will be of upmost significance and importance compared to any kiss I have ever given in the past; so essentially, I never 'gave my kiss away'. Though when it comes to sexual relations, it's a nother subject matter. Sex must wait until marriage, because that is truely reserved only for your significant other. So please do some of us a favor, keep your preference as that, a preference, not a moral blueprint for everyone to follow (unless it was mandated by the Church as Divine Teaching, but last I checked, kissing in the basic form is not sinful; however, other acts that can lead to sexual immortality are indeed sinful). I apologize if I may have offended anyone's feelings, which was not my intention, I'm simply speaking my mind.[/quote] This was posted by PalD on page 4. Make rules for yourself if you so wish but there should not be a forced rule for everything. Everyone is different. Everyone is able to handle more or less depending on their weakness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 [quote name='picchick' post='1749495' date='Jan 12 2009, 10:46 AM']Ok...now we are going in circles because how ever many pages back someone already said this. What some people cannot do should not be forced on someone else. I'll find it....and post it....repost it...[/quote] Sorry. Is there anything left that we haven't said yet? This is a gigantic thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1749725' date='Jan 12 2009, 06:29 PM']Sorry. Is there anything left that we haven't said yet? This is a gigantic thread.[/quote] Oh man, I did not mean to make anyone feel like they need to apologize. This is a huge thread I agree. I am not frustrated with you or slappo about repeating it. I was more showing that this was already said...that there are people out there who are agreeing...I guess. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappo Posted January 17, 2009 Author Share Posted January 17, 2009 [quote name='picchick' post='1751169' date='Jan 14 2009, 11:20 AM']Oh man, I did not mean to make anyone feel like they need to apologize. This is a huge thread I agree. I am not frustrated with you or slappo about repeating it. I was more showing that this was already said...that there are people out there who are agreeing...I guess. Sorry.[/quote] My post had to do more with people thinking that the limit for each individual is based on what causes their body to be aroused. Yes every persons level of physical touch that they can maintain while remaining chaste is different, but ALSO that level is not dependent strictly upon what arouses their body. I've followed this thread fairly carefully (considering I started it), and I don't remember anyone saying that arousal does not necessarily = unchaste (although it can depending on intentions, like if the intention was for arousal). The kiss that I give my girlfriend can be completely chaste although sometimes it may cause arousal, but that same kiss can be completely lustful if I am doing it for the [b]purpose[/b] of causing arousal. If arousal is merely an unintended occurence the act isn't sinful by necessity, although it could still be sinful. Groping your girlfriend but not having the "intention" of arousal I'd say is a disordered form of affection and therefore sinful, however an arousing fairly quick kiss is not a disordered form of affection for a dating couple even though it may cause arousal. I hope that's clear. Now for some people... they may not be able to hold good intentions when say... kissing... and that is when you enter into the realm of subjectivity. I would personally say that any disordered form of affection is objectively sinful, while any other form of affection is objectively pure but can become subjectively sinful by intentions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 I'm really surprised that there are people who are okay with French kissing, making out kissing, petting, and groping, which are, according to Catholic moral theology, gravely sinful! It is my personal opinion, that any more than around ten seconds is too long for kissing... and as for touching: I don't think sitting on the other person's lap would be the best thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappo Posted February 5, 2009 Author Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1772347' date='Feb 4 2009, 05:35 PM']I'm really surprised that there are people who are okay with French kissing, making out kissing, petting, and groping, which are, according to Catholic moral theology, gravely sinful! It is my personal opinion, that any more than around ten seconds is too long for kissing... and as for touching: I don't think sitting on the other person's lap would be the best thing to do.[/quote] I started off telling my girlfriend that I'm not comfortable doing anything with her that I couldn't do with my mother. I.E to this day I'll still lay my head on my moms shoulder/lap watching a movie, and it wouldn't be too weird to give her a kiss on the lips (although not common between my mom anyways)... but other then that my girlfriend and I don't really do anything. Sure I cuddle more often with her, kiss her more often etc then I would my mom but... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Therese Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 [quote name='Slappo' post='1772655' date='Feb 5 2009, 12:14 AM']I started off telling my girlfriend that I'm not comfortable doing anything with her that I couldn't do with my mother. I.E to this day I'll still lay my head on my moms shoulder/lap watching a movie, and it wouldn't be too weird to give her a kiss on the lips (although not common between my mom anyways)... but other then that my girlfriend and I don't really do anything. Sure I cuddle more often with her, kiss her more often etc then I would my mom but...[/quote] Is that your gf in your picture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffpugh Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 I believe that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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