Lying To Nazis

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Marie-Therese' date='09 May 2010 - 12:11 PM' timestamp='1273425116' post='2107684']
Exodus 1:15-21 (Douay)

[i]15 And the king of Egypt spoke to the midwives of the Hebrews: of whom one was called Sephora, the other Phua,
16 Commanding them: When you shall do the office of midwives to the Hebrew women, and the time of delivery is come: if it be a man child, kill it: if a woman, keep it alive.
17 But the midwives feared God, and did not do as the king of Egypt had commanded, but saved the men children.
18 And the king called for them and said: What is that you meant to do, that you would save the men children ?
19 They answered: The Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women: for they themselves are skillful in the office of a midwife; and they are delivered before we come to them.
20 Therefore God dealt well with the midwives: and the people multiplied and grew exceedingly strong.
21 And because the midwives feared God, he built them houses. [/i]

These verses seem to say that these midwives lied to Pharaoh in order to save the male children of Israel, and that God rewarded them. How does this match up with the position that lying is in every case an inexcusable action? I am not disputing or being confrontational, I am genuinely curious. I even brought this very thing up in chat the other night, because I found it during my reading and was fascinated by this scenario.
[/quote]

Read what St. Thomas had to say about this very issue.

"Neither do they confess that they are awed by those citations from the Old Testament which are alleged as examples of lies:for there, every incident may possibly be taken figuratively, although it really did take place: and when a thing is either done or said figuratively, it is no lie . For every utterance is to be referred to that which it utters. But when any thing is either done or said figuratively, it utters that which it signifies to those for whose understanding it was put forth. Whence we may believe in regard of those persons of the prophetical times who are set forth as authoritative, that in all that is written of them they acted and spoke prophetically; and no less, that there is a prophetical meaning in all those incidents of their lives which by the same prophetic Spirit have been accounted worthy of being recorded in writing. As to the midwives, indeed, they cannot say that these women did through the prophetic Spirit, with purpose of signifying a future truth, tell Pharaoh one thing instead of another, (albeit that Spirit did signify something, without their knowing what was doing in their persons:) but, they say that [b]these women were[/b] [b]according to their degree[/b] approved and rewarded of God. [b]For if a person who is used to tell lies for harm's sake comes to tell them for the sake of doing good, that person has made great progress. But it is one thing that is set forth as laudable in itself, another that in comparison with a worse is preferred.[/b] [b]It is one sort of gratulation that we express when a man is in sound health, another when a sick man is getting better. In the Scripture, even Sodom is said to be justified in comparison with the crimes of the people Israel. And to this rule they apply all the instances of lying which are produced from the Old Books,and are found not reprehended, or cannot be reprehended: either they are approved on the score of a progress towards improvement and hope of better things, or in virtue of some hidden signification they are not altogether lies."[/b]

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1312.htm"]http://www.newadvent...athers/1312.htm[/url]

~Sternhauser

Edited May 9, 2010 by Sternhauser

[Sternhauser]

I'm not going to mince words. I think it is foul and scandalous to see the majority of Catholics here advocating an intrinsically evil act.

~Sternhauser

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='07 May 2010 - 08:23 PM' timestamp='1273278192' post='2106540']
I know that I do not allow nonsense or evasive answers when I ask questions. I recognize them every time. And evil as they were, the Gestapo were not unintelligent.
[/quote]

Which is why I think all this "just use mental reservation" stuff just won't work.

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='07 May 2010 - 08:23 PM' timestamp='1273278192' post='2106540']
It is better to remain silent or kill the aggressors, and risk the possibility that the Jews may die, than to lie to save them. As Dominic Savio said, "[i]Death before sin![/i]" [/quote]

But would not handing over an innocent person to be murdered - especially when one has a chance to save them - also be a sin? In fact, a greater one?

I guess we all have to gauge what we could get away with.

Additionally, if we were willing to take the risk of hiding Jews in the first place and set up hiding spaces, etc., would not we also have a "plan B" for the possibility that Nazis would come to our door?

Edited May 9, 2010 by Norseman82

[Marie-Therese]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='09 May 2010 - 01:41 PM' timestamp='1273426890' post='2107691']
Read what St. Thomas had to say about this very issue.

"Neither do they confess that they are awed by those citations from the Old Testament which are alleged as examples of lies:for there, every incident may possibly be taken figuratively, although it really did take place: and when a thing is either done or said figuratively, it is no lie . For every utterance is to be referred to that which it utters. But when any thing is either done or said figuratively, it utters that which it signifies to those for whose understanding it was put forth. Whence we may believe in regard of those persons of the prophetical times who are set forth as authoritative, that in all that is written of them they acted and spoke prophetically; and no less, that there is a prophetical meaning in all those incidents of their lives which by the same prophetic Spirit have been accounted worthy of being recorded in writing. As to the midwives, indeed, they cannot say that these women did through the prophetic Spirit, with purpose of signifying a future truth, tell Pharaoh one thing instead of another, (albeit that Spirit did signify something, without their knowing what was doing in their persons:) but, they say that [b]these women were[/b] [b]according to their degree[/b] approved and rewarded of God. [b]For if a person who is used to tell lies for harm's sake comes to tell them for the sake of doing good, that person has made great progress. But it is one thing that is set forth as laudable in itself, another that in comparison with a worse is preferred.[/b] [b]It is one sort of gratulation that we express when a man is in sound health, another when a sick man is getting better. In the Scripture, even Sodom is said to be justified in comparison with the crimes of the people Israel. And to this rule they apply all the instances of lying which are produced from the Old Books,and are found not reprehended, or cannot be reprehended: either they are approved on the score of a progress towards improvement and hope of better things, or in virtue of some hidden signification they are not altogether lies."[/b]

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1312.htm"]http://www.newadvent...athers/1312.htm[/url]

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Thank you. I am not well read in the Summa and has not seen this. It just struck me as I was reading in Exodus and was curious about it.

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='09 May 2010 - 01:43 PM' timestamp='1273427032' post='2107692']
I'm not going to mince words. I think it is foul and scandalous to see the majority of Catholics here advocating an intrinsically evil act.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

I didn't advocate lying; I was simply curious about the interpretation of those verses. I think that in a situation where a human life is at stake, it necessarily causes a person to want to do something to protect that life. The impulse is understandable.

When you said you would kill the aggressors rather than lie, how would that act be less intrinsically evil? Again, I am not trying to confront. I am really, legitimately curious. I admit that as a convert that I am not as well read in patristics and I don't know what the Saints and Fathers say to these ends.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='09 May 2010 - 11:53 AM' timestamp='1273420422' post='2107673']
Should you or should you not commit the intrinsically evil act of lying if you are hiding Jews?

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Should a $300 picture tube blow up to protect a 50 cent fuse?

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Marie-Therese' date='09 May 2010 - 07:23 PM' timestamp='1273447393' post='2107823']
When you said you would kill the aggressors rather than lie, how would that act be less intrinsically evil? Again, I am not trying to confront. I am really, legitimately curious. I admit that as a convert that I am not as well read in patristics and I don't know what the Saints and Fathers say to these ends.
[/quote]

I have no clue what murdering the aggressors would solve either. Your life is not in immediate risk, at least not if the Nazis spare you for showing them the hiding place. So you would be committing murder to save the lives of the Jews. That is more grave than lying to save the lives of the Jews. Besides, if you kill the aggressors, well the problem is not just going to go away. If anything, more Nazis will come to your house.

[Hassan]

Personally, I'd like to think that I'd try to kill Nazis and otherwise work in the resistance. At the same time, if I thought it'd save someone hiding in my home from Auschwitz I'd get a swastika tattoo, hang up a picture of the Fuhrer over my fireplace, and tapdance while I sang a song about how much I loved being part of the master race and how revolting the Jews are to the gestapo as I swore up and down that no Jews dared enter [i]my[/i] home.

I think that if you wouldn't polish Himmler's boots to save a single child from the torturous death that awaited them at the end of their trainride, then you need to engage in some serious introspection. Shoot him as soon as you get a chance, sure. But violent resistance isn't the best way to save lives in every circumstance.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Marie-Therese' date='09 May 2010 - 06:23 PM' timestamp='1273447393' post='2107823']
Thank you. I am not well read in the Summa and has not seen this. It just struck me as I was reading in Exodus and was curious about it.



I didn't advocate lying; I was simply curious about the interpretation of those verses. I think that in a situation where a human life is at stake, it necessarily causes a person to want to do something to protect that life. The impulse is understandable.[/quote]

I hope you didn't take it personally. Unless you number yourself among them. Because I wasn't speaking about you in particular.

[quote]When you said you would kill the aggressors rather than lie, how would that act be less intrinsically evil? Again, I am not trying to confront. I am really, legitimately curious. I admit that as a convert that I am not as well read in patristics and I don't know what the Saints and Fathers say to these ends.
[/quote]

Killing a human being in itself is not intrinsically morally evil. (It is always a natural evil.) Murder, as the deliberate killing of an innocent, [i]is[/i] intrinsically immoral. Sexual acts are not intrinsically immoral. Masturbation is. "Intrinsically evil" means something is evil by the very nature of the act.

~Sternhauser

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Norseman82' date='09 May 2010 - 06:28 PM' timestamp='1273447738' post='2107829']
Should a $300 picture tube blow up to protect a 50 cent fuse?
[/quote]

Human souls do not have parts.

~Sternhauser

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='09 May 2010 - 07:58 PM' timestamp='1273449496' post='2107846']
Killing a human being in itself is not intrinsically morally evil. (It is always a natural evil.) Murder, as the deliberate killing of an innocent, [i]is[/i] intrinsically immoral. Sexual acts are not intrinsically immoral. Masturbation is. "Intrinsically evil" means something is evil by the very nature of the act.
[/quote]

The very nature of taking a human life is an intrinsic evil.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='09 May 2010 - 07:00 PM' timestamp='1273449606' post='2107848']
The very nature of taking a human life is an intrinsic evil.
[/quote]

It is not intrinsically morally evil, however. Either it is possible to kill without sin, or everyone who ever took up arms in a military was a murderer or an attempted murderer.

~Sternhauser

[Marie-Therese]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='09 May 2010 - 07:58 PM' timestamp='1273449496' post='2107846']
I hope you didn't take it personally. Unless you number yourself among them. Because I wasn't speaking about you in particular. [/quote]

I didn't take it personally.



[quote]Killing a human being in itself is not intrinsically morally evil. (It is always a natural evil.) Murder, as the deliberate killing of an innocent, [i]is[/i] intrinsically immoral. Sexual acts are not intrinsically immoral. Masturbation is. "Intrinsically evil" means something is evil by the very nature of the act.

~Sternhauser

[/quote]

OK I understand your argument. Thank you for the clarification.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='09 May 2010 - 08:04 PM' timestamp='1273449890' post='2107850']
It is not intrinsically morally evil, however. Either it is possible to kill without sin, or everyone who ever took up arms in a military was a murderer or an attempted murderer.
[/quote]

The act is an intrinsic evil. It is never morally good to take a human life, whether that be out of malice or self-defense.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='09 May 2010 - 07:29 PM' timestamp='1273447770' post='2107830']
If anything, more Nazis will come to your house.
[/quote]
Exactly. Killing the gestapo officers at the door will not solve anything. It will only cause a world of hurt to immediately come crashing down upon one's head, so that both the homeowner and the jews would be killed.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='09 May 2010 - 08:11 PM' timestamp='1273450286' post='2107857']
The act is an intrinsic evil. It is never morally good to take a human life, whether that be out of malice or self-defense.
[/quote]


You keep ignoring his qualifications.