Lying To Nazis

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='havok579257' date='08 May 2010 - 07:00 PM' timestamp='1273363222' post='2107189']
except in the above examples by the other posters they would be speaking a falsehood with the intent to decieve. when the nazi's ask if there are any jews hiding here and someone says only me and my brothers live here is a lie. since he is lying in saying that his brother's live with him since they are really jews and not his brothers. the person who never before referred to jews as his brother's suddenly now claims they are his brothers so he does not have to out them is a lie.

or saying that there are no filthy jews here but in actuality there are jews there is a lie. just because that person would not describe jews as filthy does not mean they did not lie when they said there were no jews there.
[/quote]
All mankind is your brother and sister.
If I say there's no filthy Jews, it might mean that there are clean ones.


Yet still, as I said twice now, I don't believe this is sitting particularly well within the spirit of the law and I'm working on a better answer.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='havok579257' date='08 May 2010 - 07:02 PM' timestamp='1273363356' post='2107191']
if someone refuses to lie to the nazi's, yet hides jews in the house, then they would have the jewish blood on their hands. knowing you will tell the nazi's the truth and still hiding jews means your complient in their murder.
[/quote]

Do you deny that what St. Thomas said was true?

~Sternhauser

Edited May 9, 2010 by Sternhauser

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='havok579257' date='08 May 2010 - 07:00 PM' timestamp='1273363222' post='2107189']
except in the above examples by the other posters they would be speaking a falsehood with the intent to decieve. when the nazi's ask if there are any jews hiding here and someone says only me and my brothers live here is a lie. since he is lying in saying that his brother's live with him since they are really jews and not his brothers. the person who never before referred to jews as his brother's suddenly now claims they are his brothers so he does not have to out them is a lie.

or saying that there are no filthy jews here but in actuality there are jews there is a lie. just because that person would not describe jews as filthy does not mean they did not lie when they said there were no jews there.
[/quote]

I wasn't responding to the first poster. I was responding to the sentence, "Purposefully being deceitful is still lying."

~Sternhauser

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='havok579257' date='08 May 2010 - 07:02 PM' timestamp='1273363356' post='2107191']
if someone refuses to lie to the nazi's, yet hides jews in the house, then they would have the jewish blood on their hands. knowing you will tell the nazi's the truth and still hiding jews means your complient in their murder.
[/quote]

Are you saying that it is moral to perform an immoral act, or that an intrinsically immoral act becomes moral by the circumstances? It sounds as though you're saying one or the other.

~Sternhauser

[Winchester]

[quote name='havok579257' date='08 May 2010 - 08:02 PM' timestamp='1273363356' post='2107191']
if someone refuses to lie to the nazi's,[/quote]
The Nazi's what?

[Hassan]

[quote name='notardillacid' date='08 May 2010 - 02:53 AM' timestamp='1273301595' post='2106827']
If you wouldn't lie to save your friends' lives, then you really are a tool
[/quote]

[Tridenteen]

JMJ
Some saint said it isn't a sin to be uncharitable and nasty to the devil. So, I guess it means if it for the good of someone, it isn't a sin to lie either.

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

[quote name='havok579257' date='08 May 2010 - 05:57 PM' timestamp='1273359473' post='2107152']
deliberately misleading: intentionally misleading or fraudulent
Given to cheating or deceiving
the act or practice of deceiving; concealment or distortion of the truth for the purpose of misleading; duplicity; fraud; cheating: Once she exposed their deceit, no one ever trusted them again.


so yes it is.
[/quote]

My intention wouldnt be to decieve or to mislead. My intention would be to save human lives.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Tridenteen' date='08 May 2010 - 08:53 PM' timestamp='1273370007' post='2107338']
JMJ
Some saint said it isn't a sin to be uncharitable and nasty to the devil. So, I guess it means if it for the good of someone, it isn't a sin to lie either.
[/quote]

That's a logical quantum leap. It's also less-than-true. Lying is intrinsically evil. That means it is evil by the very nature of the act. It is always wrong. That means it is never morally permissible. Never. For any reason.

~Sternhauser

Edited May 9, 2010 by Sternhauser

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='sacredheartandbloodofjesus' date='08 May 2010 - 09:19 PM' timestamp='1273371562' post='2107373']
My intention wouldnt be to decieve or to mislead. My intention would be to save human lives.
[/quote]

It seems as though you are saying that you would intend to lie as a means of achieving the end of saving human lives. The end does not justify the means. And the means is the manner that is chosen (intended) to achieve the end.

~Sternhauser

Edited May 9, 2010 by Sternhauser

[havok579257]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='08 May 2010 - 08:22 PM' timestamp='1273364556' post='2107214']
Are you saying that it is moral to perform an immoral act, or that an intrinsically immoral act becomes moral by the circumstances? It sounds as though you're saying one or the other.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]


i am saying if someone will not lie to the nazi's when they ask if they are hiding jews, then if said person chooses to hide jews, then their deaths are on said person's head. since they are putting the jews in an obvious position to be killed. if someone refuses to lie to the nazi, then they should not be hiding jews. if they are, the jews death are partially their fault. they are guilty of killing those jews just like the nazi are.

[Jesus_lol]

thats actually a good point.



I will leave final judgement up to God, but in my books if you wouldnt lie to a Nazi to save friends, men women and children from starvation, torture and death, then you are a tool.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='havok579257' date='08 May 2010 - 11:01 PM' timestamp='1273377693' post='2107463']
i am saying if someone will not lie to the nazi's when they ask if they are hiding jews, then if said person chooses to hide jews, then their deaths are on said person's head. since they are putting the jews in an obvious position to be killed. if someone refuses to lie to the nazi, then they should not be hiding jews. if they are, the jews death are partially their fault. they are guilty of killing those jews just like the nazi are.
[/quote]

Should you or should you not commit the intrinsically evil act of lying if you are hiding Jews?

~Sternhauser

[Marie-Therese]

Exodus 1:15-21 (Douay)

[i]15 And the king of Egypt spoke to the midwives of the Hebrews: of whom one was called Sephora, the other Phua,
16 Commanding them: When you shall do the office of midwives to the Hebrew women, and the time of delivery is come: if it be a man child, kill it: if a woman, keep it alive.
17 But the midwives feared God, and did not do as the king of Egypt had commanded, but saved the men children.
18 And the king called for them and said: What is that you meant to do, that you would save the men children ?
19 They answered: The Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women: for they themselves are skillful in the office of a midwife; and they are delivered before we come to them.
20 Therefore God dealt well with the midwives: and the people multiplied and grew exceedingly strong.
21 And because the midwives feared God, he built them houses. [/i]

These verses seem to say that these midwives lied to Pharaoh in order to save the male children of Israel, and that God rewarded them. How does this match up with the position that lying is in every case an inexcusable action? I am not disputing or being confrontational, I am genuinely curious. I even brought this very thing up in chat the other night, because I found it during my reading and was fascinated by this scenario.

[HisChildForever]

Absolutely I would lie.

Anyone who answers "No, I would not lie" would not be hiding the Jews in the first place because it would be against the law. If one would argue that in this case it would be okay to break the law - an immoral law - then I would argue it must be okay to lie to save innocent lives.