Lying To Nazis

[Winchester]

I would lie to the Nazis. Then I would find their friends and lie to them. I would lie to their family and their dog. I would lie to the people that owed them money.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Galloglasses' date='29 March 2008 - 01:13 PM' timestamp='1206810829' post='1487782']
I would not lie to them, I would say "No, there are no Jews in my House. I live here with my two older brothers." They ask where are they. "They are out at the moment, I'm not sure when they will be back, but I hope around supper time."

Lieing also counts on what you mean when you are saying something. For example I said I live here with my two older brothers, Jews are our older brothers in the faith and since you are keeping them here they are technically living with you. When you say they are out, I'd gester around the room or hold my arms out. And imply the room. Because the Jews are out of the room. I'd say i'd hope they'd be back around supper time, because I want to buy myself a reasonable amount of time for the Gestapo goon to bugger off. (This is whats known as blarney, 'What I say I do not mean and what I mean I do not say. Its like not telling the straight truth, but saying something more truthful then a lie)

Altough if I was in a rush or flustered, I'd probably lie given my examination of my nature. I would repent afterwards, lieing gives me a bad taste.
[/quote]


except that's being decitful and its a lie. you don't consider those jews your brother's. your skirting around the outright lie, but your still lying by being decitful.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='07 May 2010 - 02:27 AM' timestamp='1273213643' post='2106209']
I consider lying morally wrong under all circumstances.
[/quote]


so what would you do in this situation?

[havok579257]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='07 May 2010 - 12:24 AM' timestamp='1273206278' post='2106170']
I'm not good at lying, but I am good at mental evasion. I'd say "There are no dirty Jews here" (angrily and emphatically) with the obvious thought in the back of my head being that they're lovely people and not dirty at all.

It's really not that tough an issue, if you don't consider evasion to be lying.
[/quote]


purposly being decitful is lying.

[Winchester]

[quote name='havok579257' date='07 May 2010 - 11:08 PM' timestamp='1273288106' post='2106628']
you don't consider those jews your brother's. [/quote]
Your brother's [i]what[/i]?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='havok579257' date='07 May 2010 - 10:11 PM' timestamp='1273288288' post='2106631']
purposly being decitful is lying.
[/quote]
That's not correct in a technical sense, and in addition, as I said, I am doing further research at the moment.
2482 "A lie consists in [b]speaking a falsehood[/b] with the intention of deceiving."

Now I'm starting to think that mental evasion is against the spirit of the law, so I'm currently working on a logically consistent and more 'seamless' approach to the scenario.

[Nihil Obstat]

Oh, and just so I have this readily on hand for later on...


2488 The right to the communication of the truth is not unconditional. Everyone must conform his life to the Gospel precept of fraternal love. This requires us in concrete situations to judge whether or not it is appropriate to reveal the truth to someone who asks for it.

2489 Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request for information or communication. The good and safety of others, respect for privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language. The duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to know it.282



Notice the mention of "discreet language". Obviously there's a lot of room to work with this scenario and still abide by the spirit of the law as well as the letter.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='07 May 2010 - 08:23 PM' timestamp='1273278192' post='2106540']
Would [i]you [/i]really be responsible for the innocent person's death if you said nothing to the Gestapo? The murder is on the Gestapo, not you.

Broad mental reservation of the type advocated in some of the posts above is, in fact, lying. Lying is speaking untruths with the intent to deceive. Lying is always immoral. Is lying ever moral? No. If something is immoral, you may not ever do it for any reason. One may not do evil that good may come of it. There is no exception.

Keep in mind that you would be perfectly within your rights to kill the Gestapo at your door. If more people had stepped up and killed the querents, rather than lied, there would have been a lot fewer Gestapo to go about asking questions. What Solzhenitsyn said of the Soviets is true of the Nazis, and of any oppressive regime: "And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat therein their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? After all, you knew ahead of time that those bluecaps were out at night for no good purpose. And you could be sure ahead of time that you’d be cracking the skull of a cutthroat. Or what about the Black Maria sitting out there on the street with one lonely chauffeur – what if it had been driven off or its tires spiked. The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin’s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!"

I know that I do not allow nonsense or evasive answers when I ask questions. I recognize them every time. And evil as they were, the Gestapo were not unintelligent.

It is better to remain silent or kill the aggressors, and risk the possibility that the Jews may die, than to lie to save them. As Dominic Savio said, "[i]Death before sin![/i]"

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Stop using logic and quotes from Saints, it might convince people...

Actually I already agreed with you.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='08 May 2010 - 12:22 AM' timestamp='1273292562' post='2106687']
That's not correct in a technical sense, and in addition, as I said, I am doing further research at the moment.
2482 "A lie consists in [b]speaking a falsehood[/b] with the intention of deceiving."

Now I'm starting to think that mental evasion is against the spirit of the law, so I'm currently working on a logically consistent and more 'seamless' approach to the scenario.
[/quote]


i would consider your above post being speaking a falsehood. your saying its not a lie because of a technicality in that they referred to the jews as dirty and you think they are clean. that's really trying to get around a lie by using a technicality. there are no technicalities to God's law's. its lie because your being purposely decitful. you know the nazi's are asking if there are any jews in your house. there adjectives to describe the jews does not change the question in the end, are there any jews here.

also what would you say if the nazi's (more realistic) said are you hiding any jews?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='havok579257' date='07 May 2010 - 11:30 PM' timestamp='1273293017' post='2106702']
i would consider your above post being speaking a falsehood. your saying its not a lie because of a technicality in that they referred to the jews as dirty and you think they are clean. that's really trying to get around a lie by using a technicality. there are no technicalities to God's law's. its lie because your being purposely decitful. you know the nazi's are asking if there are any jews in your house. there adjectives to describe the jews does not change the question in the end, are there any jews here.

also what would you say if the nazi's (more realistic) said are you hiding any jews?
[/quote]
I consider my above post to be within the letter of the law, though whether or not it is within the spirit of the law can (and should) be debated. I'm not longer happy with that post for that reason. My above 'solution' rested on the idea that I actually did not answer the Nazi's question, but rather answered something they did not ask. To quibble, it's technically the same as remaining silent, then immediately attempting to distract them with an unrelated piece of information.
Like I said, not really within the spirit of the law.


The key of this whole thing, I think, is that the Nazis in question *do not have the right* to know the truth. I think the solution hinges on that, and I'm working on it.

[Jesus_lol]

im thinking my viewpoint and sterns line up nicely here.

kill the nazis. problem solved.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='07 May 2010 - 11:44 PM' timestamp='1273293871' post='2106713']
im thinking my viewpoint and sterns line up nicely here.

kill the nazis. problem solved.
[/quote]
I like it, if you have the means to do so.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='08 May 2010 - 12:44 AM' timestamp='1273293871' post='2106713']
im thinking my viewpoint and sterns line up nicely here.

kill the nazis. problem solved.
[/quote]

How are you going to do that when guns are illegal?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='aalpha1989' date='07 May 2010 - 11:47 PM' timestamp='1273294061' post='2106720']
How are you going to do that when guns are illegal?
[/quote]
I guess he'll just have to drown his sorrows in strong liquo- oh wait....... alcohol is immoral and probably illegal as well.

Maybe he can beat them to death with a crowbar.

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

I would tell the Gestapo "I dont have any filthy pigs in my house!" Its true that I dont have pigs in my house instead I have Jewish human beings.