Lying To Nazis

[Galloglasses]

I would not lie to them, I would say "No, there are no Jews in my House. I live here with my two older brothers." They ask where are they. "They are out at the moment, I'm not sure when they will be back, but I hope around supper time."

Lieing also counts on what you mean when you are saying something. For example I said I live here with my two older brothers, Jews are our older brothers in the faith and since you are keeping them here they are technically living with you. When you say they are out, I'd gester around the room or hold my arms out. And imply the room. Because the Jews are out of the room. I'd say i'd hope they'd be back around supper time, because I want to buy myself a reasonable amount of time for the Gestapo goon to bugger off. (This is whats known as blarney, 'What I say I do not mean and what I mean I do not say. Its like not telling the straight truth, but saying something more truthful then a lie)

Altough if I was in a rush or flustered, I'd probably lie given my examination of my nature. I would repent afterwards, lieing gives me a bad taste.

Edited March 29, 2008 by Galloglasses

[Aloysius]

in a situation in which the person asking the question does not have a right to the truth, even stating something which is abjectly untrue if necessary is not a lie so long as you keep the truth in your mind. "there are no Jews here" can be absolutely true if you mean by it that there is nobody fitting the German understanding of what a Jew is (ie subhuman). of course, it is not merely not a lie because it has a good ends, it is not a lie because the German does not have the right to know where the Jews he wants to kill are.

of course, when possible in such a situation it is nice to be able to say things which are also technically true... but the older brother thing would probably not work because the Germans would probably be back and if they never met your older brothers there, they'd get suspicious. it's a decent idea though

[Vincent Vega]

I'd lie like a freakin' mat if it meant the difference between life and death of innocent people. I'm pretty sure God would understand...

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='29 March 2008 - 02:02 PM' timestamp='1206817377' post='1487869']
I'd lie like a freakin' mat if it meant the difference between life and death of innocent people. I'm pretty sure God would understand...
[/quote]

Heck yeah. I can't imagine a German in Germany in 1944, who has decided to hide Jews in his/her home, who wouldn't be prepared to lie if necessary, knowing the consequences if the Jews are discovered.

[Hilde]

I would lie. Yup.

[Jesus_lol]

where is the option to say "i would lie so fast and so hard that my pinnochio nose would stab right through the gestapo guys like a german shish kabob, and thus solve my problems twice." ?

Edited May 7, 2010 by Jesus_lol

[Nihil Obstat]

I'm not good at lying, but I am good at mental evasion. I'd say "There are no dirty Jews here" (angrily and emphatically) with the obvious thought in the back of my head being that they're lovely people and not dirty at all.

It's really not that tough an issue, if you don't consider evasion to be lying.

[Resurrexi]

I consider lying morally wrong under all circumstances.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='06 May 2010 - 11:24 PM' timestamp='1273206278' post='2106170']
I'm not good at lying, but I am good at mental evasion. I'd say "There are no dirty Jews here" (angrily and emphatically) with the obvious thought in the back of my head being that they're lovely people and not dirty at all.

It's really not that tough an issue, if you don't consider evasion to be lying.
[/quote]
I'd just like to add that thinking deeper on this issue is leading me to do further research.

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='07 May 2010 - 02:27 AM' timestamp='1273213643' post='2106209']
I consider lying morally wrong under all circumstances.
[/quote]
even in poker?

[Norseman82]

When standing before God on judgment day, I would rather answer for lying to a Nazi than for being responsible for an innocent person's death.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Norseman82' date='07 May 2010 - 07:00 PM' timestamp='1273276813' post='2106536']
When standing before God on judgment day, I would rather answer for lying to a Nazi than for being responsible for an innocent person's death.
[/quote]

Would [i]you [/i]really be responsible for the innocent person's death if you said nothing to the Gestapo? The murder is on the Gestapo, not you.

Broad mental reservation of the type advocated in some of the posts above is, in fact, lying. Lying is speaking untruths with the intent to deceive. Lying is always immoral. Is lying ever moral? No. If something is immoral, you may not ever do it for any reason. One may not do evil that good may come of it. There is no exception.

Keep in mind that you would be perfectly within your rights to kill the Gestapo at your door. If more people had stepped up and killed the querents, rather than lied, there would have been a lot fewer Gestapo to go about asking questions. What Solzhenitsyn said of the Soviets is true of the Nazis, and of any oppressive regime: "And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat therein their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? After all, you knew ahead of time that those bluecaps were out at night for no good purpose. And you could be sure ahead of time that you’d be cracking the skull of a cutthroat. Or what about the Black Maria sitting out there on the street with one lonely chauffeur – what if it had been driven off or its tires spiked. The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin’s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!"

I know that I do not allow nonsense or evasive answers when I ask questions. I recognize them every time. And evil as they were, the Gestapo were not unintelligent.

It is better to remain silent or kill the aggressors, and risk the possibility that the Jews may die, than to lie to save them. As Dominic Savio said, "[i]Death before sin![/i]"

~Sternhauser

Edited May 8, 2010 by Sternhauser

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='07 May 2010 - 02:27 AM' timestamp='1273213643' post='2106209']
I consider lying morally wrong under all circumstances.
[/quote]
even fake handoffs?

[havok579257]

[quote name='Legend Chaser' date='24 March 2008 - 11:51 AM' timestamp='1206373912' post='1483012']
Isn't concealment of the truth okay in situations that might endanger someone else? So couldn't you dodge the question, or reword your answer so it wasn't technically a lie?
[/quote]


in this hypothetical, rewording the answer doesn't work. unless you really think the nazi's would just leave after not getting a real answer from you.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Autumn Dusk' date='24 March 2008 - 12:56 PM' timestamp='1206377771' post='1483050']
yes.

However, in this thread we seem to be defining just how much we can push the issue of what is a lie.

for instance jews are in the basement and the police ask "do you have any jews here?" and answering "no" is an apparent lie, however someone might say that "here" means this exact spot and not the basement.

The again let's say you witnessed a robbery and one of the jewlers ran off with a box of his favorite items, the thief chased after him with a loaded gun, and already attemted to shoot the guy once or twice. You stand at "T" of an ally and the jewler runs past you and goes to your left. The robber then comes and sais "tell me which way he went or I'll shoot you" but you know full well that if he goes right both you and the jeweler will be spared as the poliece are awaiting him on the right side. So you would you say "he went right"? Its an outright lie
[/quote]

are people really trying to argue that its not a lie when they give your example? the person answering the nazi knows exaclty what the nazi mean when they say is someone here. unless your answer is no, there is no one here where i am standing but i can't vouch for anywhere else in my house, then its a lie. people would know what the nazi's meant and to tell them something other than the truth is a lie.