Lying To Nazis

[kamiller42]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='11 May 2010 - 05:15 PM' timestamp='1273612507' post='2108916']
This is what I have the loopholeish feelings about.

It's like saying that though I told you a half-truth, it's not my fault you didn't know it wasn't the whole truth because in your ignorance (which is not my fault) you were unable to interpret it correctly. It doesn't sit well with me.
[/quote]
Sounds like a sin of omission.

I see this issue very similar to the thread on WWII bombing and how I think of killing.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='kamiller42' date='11 May 2010 - 04:21 PM' timestamp='1273612918' post='2108922']
Sounds like a sin of omission.

I see this issue very similar to the thread on WWII bombing and how I think of killing.
[/quote]
What, that murder is ok if it's a really tricky situation?

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='kamiller42' date='11 May 2010 - 05:21 PM' timestamp='1273612918' post='2108922']
Sounds like a sin of omission.

[/quote]
Yeah, I kind of briefly discussed that on the previous page.
It's amazing how sticky even seemingly easy decisions become when dealing with such great evil (The Nazis and so forth).

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='11 May 2010 - 04:18 PM' timestamp='1273612706' post='2108918']
I believe that St. Alphonsus Ligouri agreed. That's what inspired me to look deeper into this question.
[/quote]

St. Alphonsus Liguori supported the doctrine of broad mental reservation. I will try to find a direct quote, but it may not be of much use to you since the only copy of his book available to me (a copy on Google Books) is in Latin only.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='11 May 2010 - 04:26 PM' timestamp='1273613193' post='2108927']
St. Alphonsus Liguori supported the doctrine of broad mental reservation. I will try to find a direct quote, but it may not be of much use to you since the only copy of his book available to me (a copy on Google Books) is in Latin only.
[/quote]
Well can I rely on an accurate translation from you?

[DevotedtoHim]

Yes, I would lie to them (without any problem) because first of all I can't imagine that lying to save a life (or lives) would ever be wrong and secondly if you want to get technical, "I" wouldn't be hiding them. They would be hiding themselves.

Katherine

Edit comment: I just looked back through this whole list and saw some links. I see that we are never supposed to lie even if it is to save a life, however, I think my second part of the answer would fit under the mental reservation category and even knowing all of this, I would still lie because I would not be turning away from God, I would be attempting to save a family and I hope I would always be in the position of courage and bravery to say yes to life no matter the circumstances. If my feeble mind can't figure out the rights and wrongs as I am faced by the Nazis, knowing my friends will be killed, I believe that God would have mercy on my poor soul and recognize that I did it for HIM and for LOVE OF HIM.

Edited May 11, 2010 by DevotedtoHim

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='DevotedtoHim' date='11 May 2010 - 04:32 PM' timestamp='1273613565' post='2108933']
Yes, I would lie to them (without any problem) because first of all I can't imagine that lying to save a life (or lives) would ever be wrong and secondly if you want to get technical, "I" wouldn't be hiding them. They would be hiding themselves.

Katherine
[/quote]

"And why not do evil that good may come?--as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just."

[Vincent Vega]

But then saying that "I am hiding no Jews", being that they themselves are hiding, doesn't that fall into the convenient loophole of mental reservation?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='11 May 2010 - 04:31 PM' timestamp='1273613487' post='2108932']
Well can I rely on an accurate translation from you?
[/quote]

I will do my best to translate the quote if I can find it. Part of the problem is that there are ten different volumes that make up Alphonsus' [i]Theologia Moralis[/i], each one comprised of hundreds of pages on Google books. As one would imagine, it would take a long time to find it!

[kamiller42]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='11 May 2010 - 05:25 PM' timestamp='1273613106' post='2108926']
Yeah, I kind of briefly discussed that on the previous page.
It's amazing how sticky even seemingly easy decisions become when dealing with such great evil (The Nazis and so forth).
[/quote]
Oh. You're right. Missed that. I was thinking sin of omission and trying to think of an example, like a minor answering a question from a parent, "Where are you going?", with "To a friend's house" and withholding the fact many bad things would be going on there.

I've been told the ends never justify the means (WWII thread). Now we have another case where the means (lying) justifies the ends (saving lives). Sure, we can pretty up the means with fancy terms like "mental reservation," but it's still a case of the means justifying the end. Withholding information is not a normal, recommended action.

"Do you promise to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God?"

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='kamiller42' date='11 May 2010 - 04:49 PM' timestamp='1273614593' post='2108955']
Withholding information is not a normal, recommended action.
[/quote]

There are plenty of circumstances when withholding information is quite a normal and recommended action. Such would especially be the case for those who have been told many secrets or who frequently have to listen to gossip.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='kamiller42' date='11 May 2010 - 04:49 PM' timestamp='1273614593' post='2108955']
Oh. You're right. Missed that. I was thinking sin of omission and trying to think of an example, like a minor answering a question from a parent, "Where are you going?", with "To a friend's house" and withholding the fact many bad things would be going on there.

I've been told the ends never justify the means (WWII thread). Now we have another case where the means (lying) justifies the ends (saving lives). Sure, we can pretty up the means with fancy terms like "mental reservation," but it's still a case of the means justifying the end. Withholding information is not a normal, recommended action.

"Do you promise to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God?"
[/quote]
I can never support your attempt to force utilitarian morals into Catholic teaching.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='11 May 2010 - 04:54 PM' timestamp='1273614850' post='2108960']
I can never support your attempt to force utilitarian morals into Catholic teaching.
[/quote]

Indeed, Nihil. I will post once more something I posted earlier in this thread.

"And why not do evil that good may come?—as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just."

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='11 May 2010 - 05:52 PM' timestamp='1273614767' post='2108959']
There are plenty of circumstances when withholding information is quite a normal and recommended action. Such would especially be the case for those who have been told many secrets or who frequently have to listen to gossip.
[/quote]
I can agree with that.

"And why not do evil that good may come?—as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just."

And yet, that's what it sounds like is going on.

[HisChildForever]

Let us all be grateful that we will never be put into a situation like this (God willing).