Lying To Nazis

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='11 May 2010 - 04:47 PM' timestamp='1273610824' post='2108877']
If a man asks a priest what he just heard in Confession, the priest in fact must withhold the truth. He cannot say "I heard no confession", because that is a lie, but he is obligated to withhold the truth. In this case he withholds the truth by remaining silent on the matter.
[/quote]
In this case, though, he may say "I may not tell you what I heard in the confessional". He's withholding the truth, but being straightforward about it; he is not obscuring the truth.

By not saying anything when asked if the Nazis are in one's house, he is purposefully obscuring the truth. (If he were to say, "I will not tell you whether or not there are Jews in my house,", well, that's the same as saying yes.)

[Jesus_lol]

the easiest answer

"do you have ze jews in zis house?"

"... hablo en espanol?"

[HisChildForever]

"It is certainly true that many a person in religion is disposed to act after his own will and can agree best with those who follow his own ways, but, if we desire that God be among us, we must sometimes set aside our own will (though it seem good) so that we may have love and peace with others. Who is so wise that he can fully know all things? No one, surely. Therefore, trust not too much in your own judgment, but gladly hear the advice of others. And if, perhaps, the thing you would have done might be good and profitable, and yet you set aside your own will with regard to it and follow another's will, you will thereby find much profit. I have often said that to hear and take counsel is a more sure way than to give it. It is good to hear every man's counsel; not to agree with it, when reason demands agreement, is a sign of great isolation of mind and of much inward pride." - [i]The Imitation of Christ[/i], Book I (Admonitions Useful for a Spiritual Life), 9

[Vincent Vega]

Lawl. Canadians can't speak Spanish.
(cf. http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=104850&st=0)

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='11 May 2010 - 03:52 PM' timestamp='1273611171' post='2108885']
In this case, though, he may say "I may not tell you what I heard in the confessional". He's withholding the truth, but being straightforward about it; he is not obscuring the truth.

By not saying anything when asked if the Nazis are in one's house, he is purposefully obscuring the truth. (If he were to say, "I will not tell you whether or not there are Jews in my house,", well, that's the same as saying yes.)
[/quote]
So now there's a way to "honestly" withhold the truth? You said a minute ago that purposely withholding the truth is lying.

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='11 May 2010 - 03:55 PM' timestamp='1273611349' post='2108892']
"It is certainly true that many a person in religion is disposed to act after his own will and can agree best with those who follow his own ways, but, if we desire that God be among us, we must sometimes set aside our own will (though it seem good) so that we may have love and peace with others. Who is so wise that he can fully know all things? No one, surely. Therefore, trust not too much in your own judgment, but gladly hear the advice of others. And if, perhaps, the thing you would have done might be good and profitable, and yet you set aside your own will with regard to it and follow another's will, you will thereby find much profit. I have often said that to hear and take counsel is a more sure way than to give it. It is good to hear every man's counsel; not to agree with it, when reason demands agreement, is a sign of great isolation of mind and of much inward pride." - [i]The Imitation of Christ[/i], Book I (Admonitions Useful for a Spiritual Life), 9
[/quote]
Good quote.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='11 May 2010 - 03:43 PM' timestamp='1273610602' post='2108873']
Because as with sins of omission, I think purposely withholding the truth in any form should be considered lying.
Perhaps it could be divided into actively lying and passively lying.

"A half-truth is a whole lie." - Jewish proverb.
[/quote]

Unfortunately, post-Temple Jewish proverbs are not necessarily a standard for Christian morality.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='11 May 2010 - 04:58 PM' timestamp='1273611486' post='2108896']
So now there's a way to "honestly" withhold the truth? You said a minute ago that purposely withholding the truth is lying.


Good quote.
[/quote]
Sorry, let's change that to obscuring.

"2485 By its very nature, lying is to be condemned. It is a profanation of speech, whereas [b]the purpose of speech is to communicate known truth to others[/b]. The deliberate intention of leading a neighbor into error by saying things contrary to the truth constitutes a failure in justice and charity. The culpability is greater when the intention of deceiving entails the risk of deadly consequences for those who are led astray."

Withholding truth doesn't go against that, but there's still something fishy about knowingly withholding truth not being lying that seems awful loopholeish to me. I need to think on that.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='11 May 2010 - 04:59 PM' timestamp='1273611541' post='2108897']
Unfortunately, post-Temple Jewish proverbs are not necessarily a standard for Christian morality.
[/quote]
Thank you for your input.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='11 May 2010 - 01:56 PM' timestamp='1273611400' post='2108893']
Lawl. Canadians can't speak Spanish.
(cf. [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=104850&st=0%29"]http://www.phatmass....ic=104850&st=0)[/url]
[/quote]

lol, i can

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='11 May 2010 - 04:03 PM' timestamp='1273611800' post='2108905']
Thank you for your input.
[/quote]

My input is always welcome.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='11 May 2010 - 04:02 PM' timestamp='1273611758' post='2108904']
Sorry, let's change that to obscuring.

"2485 By its very nature, lying is to be condemned. It is a profanation of speech, whereas [b]the purpose of speech is to communicate known truth to others[/b]. The deliberate intention of leading a neighbor into error by saying things contrary to the truth constitutes a failure in justice and charity. The culpability is greater when the intention of deceiving entails the risk of deadly consequences for those who are led astray."

Withholding truth doesn't go against that, but there's still something fishy about knowingly withholding truth not being lying that seems awful loopholeish to me. I need to think on that.
[/quote]
There's definitely a lot more to the question then there seems to be a first glance. It deserves more thought than we tend to give it, I think.

[Resurrexi]

When one uses a broad mental reservation, one is communicating the truth; it is just that the hearer, in his ignorance (which is not the fault of the speaker), is unable to interpret it correctly.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='11 May 2010 - 05:04 PM' timestamp='1273611893' post='2108908']
My input is always welcome.
[/quote]

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='11 May 2010 - 05:11 PM' timestamp='1273612303' post='2108914']
When one uses a broad mental reservation, one is communicating the truth; it is just that the hearer, in his ignorance (which is not the fault of the speaker), is unable to interpret it correctly.
[/quote]
This is what I have the loopholeish feelings about.

It's like saying that though I told you a half-truth, it's not my fault you didn't know it wasn't the whole truth because in your ignorance (which is not my fault) you were unable to interpret it correctly. It doesn't sit well with me.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='11 May 2010 - 04:15 PM' timestamp='1273612507' post='2108916']
This is what I have the loopholeish feelings about.

It's like saying that though I told you a half-truth, it's not my fault you didn't know it wasn't the whole truth because in your ignorance (which is not my fault) you were unable to interpret it correctly. It doesn't sit well with me.
[/quote]
I believe that St. Alphonsus Ligouri agreed. That's what inspired me to look deeper into this question.