Lying To Nazis

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='11 May 2010 - 12:54 PM' timestamp='1273600491' post='2108727']
Fine, let me rephrase it. Killing them is okay, but lying to them is not. Correct?
[/quote]
Killing them would not necessarily be immoral. Directly and intentionally telling a lie is always immoral.
Certainly there is a difference in gravity...... some lies are not particularly grave at all, but that doesn't change its fundamental immorality.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='11 May 2010 - 01:57 PM' timestamp='1273600621' post='2108729']
Killing them would not necessarily be immoral. Directly and intentionally telling a lie is always immoral.
Certainly there is a difference in gravity...... some lies are not particularly grave at all, but that doesn't change its fundamental immorality.
[/quote]

If taking a human life is not always immoral, i.e. it can be justified, then how come the same does not apply to telling a lie?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='11 May 2010 - 01:09 PM' timestamp='1273601354' post='2108737']
If taking a human life is not always immoral, i.e. it can be justified, then how come the same does not apply to telling a lie?
[/quote]
"2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility."

If you are sheltering Jews, do you have the moral authority to repel those who will enslave and/or murder them? I think the answer must emphatically be yes.

"2482 "A lie consists in speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving."280 The Lord denounces lying as the work of the devil: "You are of your father the devil, . . . there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."281

2483 Lying is the most direct offense against the truth. To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead someone into error. By injuring man's relation to truth and to his neighbor, a lie offends against the fundamental relation of man and of his word to the Lord.

2484 The gravity of a lie is measured against the nature of the truth it deforms, the circumstances, the intentions of the one who lies, and the harm suffered by its victims. If a lie in itself only constitutes a venial sin, it becomes mortal when it does grave injury to the virtues of justice and charity.

2485[b] By its very nature, lying is to be condemned[/b]. It is a profanation of speech, whereas the purpose of speech is to communicate known truth to others. The deliberate intention of leading a neighbor into error by saying things contrary to the truth constitutes a failure in justice and charity. The culpability is greater when the intention of deceiving entails the risk of deadly consequences for those who are led astray."





So in this case lying would probably be a venial sin, but sinful nonetheless. There will always be an option that does not involve sin. Always always always.

As I stated earlier, I believe that a solution lies somewhere within this:
"2489 Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request for information or communication. The good and safety of others, respect for privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language. The duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. [b]No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to know it.[/b]"

I'm trying to find a middle ground that allows you to deceive the Nazis without putting your household in jeopardy. Haven't found it yet, but I think it lies in the bolded part.

[HisChildForever]

Still boggles my mind that you can shoot the Nazis in the face but you cannot say "Sorry, no Jews here."

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='11 May 2010 - 01:22 PM' timestamp='1273602161' post='2108746']
Still boggles my mind that you can shoot the Nazis in the face but you cannot say "Sorry, no Jews here."
[/quote]
Look at it this way.

WWII was a time of war and great evil. Those were significant times. Is it more appropriate to commit a (probably) venial sin, on purpose, knowing full well it's a sin, or would it be more appropriate to choose a moral option which is quite drastic, but still moral nonetheless?


Now, maybe you'd prefer to do neither, which I suppose is fine. It would be perfectly moral to say nothing, if you can do that without getting yourself thrown in a concentration camp. Like I said, I'm working on a legitimate alternative option.


That aside, you can take it up with the pope, because I didn't write the Catechism, and it is pretty clear that we "may never do evil so that good may come of it." He said it, not me.

Edited May 11, 2010 by Nihil Obstat

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='11 May 2010 - 02:28 PM' timestamp='1273602489' post='2108747']
Look at it this way.

WWII was a time of war and great evil. Those were significant times. Is it more appropriate to commit a (probably) venial sin, on purpose, knowing full well it's a sin, or would it be more appropriate to choose a moral option which is quite drastic, but still moral nonetheless?


Now, maybe you'd prefer to do neither, which I suppose is fine. It would be perfectly moral to say nothing, if you can do that without getting yourself thrown in a concentration camp. Like I said, I'm working on a legitimate alternative option.


That aside, you can take it up with the pope, because I didn't write the Catechism, and it is pretty clear that we "may never do evil so that good may come of it." He said it, not me.
[/quote]

I also do not see how killing the Nazis is a moral option. You are a civilian, not a soldier. Unless the Nazis put a gun to your head or a knife to your throat, it is not an act of self-defense either. Besides, killing them would cause more harm than good and result in the capture (and inevitable death) of you, the Jews, and perhaps surrounding neighbors. If you told a lie the Nazis would leave, there would be no bloodshed and no further suspicion would result. It has already been mentioned that the Nazis were clever. A non-answer, or not replying at all, would simply give them reason to invade your home and look more viciously than if you had lied to them. Therefore I am interested to see what other option you can come up with.

[HisChildForever]

As an aside, is acting as a double agent immoral, even though it results in the saving of hundreds if not thousands of lives?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='11 May 2010 - 01:37 PM' timestamp='1273603054' post='2108752']
I also do not see how killing the Nazis is a moral option. You are a civilian, not a soldier. Unless the Nazis put a gun to your head or a knife to your throat, it is not an act of self-defense either. Besides, killing them would cause more harm than good and result in the capture (and inevitable death) of you, the Jews, and perhaps surrounding neighbors. If you told a lie the Nazis would leave, there would be no bloodshed and no further suspicion would result. It has already been mentioned that the Nazis were clever. A non-answer, or not replying at all, would simply give them reason to invade your home and look more viciously than if you had lied to them. Therefore I am interested to see what other option you can come up with.
[/quote]
2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.

1) If you are responsible for the lives of others, then
2) legitimate defense is not only a right but a grave duty.
3) In this scenario, you are responsible for the lives of the Jews you have sheltered, therefore
4) in this case, legitimate defense is not only a right but a grave duty.

You in this case hold legitimate moral authority. Defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm.
Killing them, in fact, can be moral even well removed from this scenario.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='11 May 2010 - 01:40 PM' timestamp='1273603209' post='2108754']
As an aside, is acting as a double agent immoral, even though it results in the saving of hundreds if not thousands of lives?
[/quote]
Why do you qualify at the end how many lives it may save? We're not looking at it from a utilitarian point of view, so the numbers really mean nothing at all. You're straying towards utilitarian morality with this question, IMHO.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='11 May 2010 - 02:40 PM' timestamp='1273603259' post='2108755']
2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.

1) If you are responsible for the lives of others, then
2) legitimate defense is not only a right but a grave duty.
3) In this scenario, you are responsible for the lives of the Jews you have sheltered, therefore
4) in this case, legitimate defense is not only a right but a grave duty.

You in this case hold legitimate moral authority. Defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm.
Killing them, in fact, can be moral even well removed from this scenario.
[/quote]

Even though their death means that others (innocents) will inevitably die when the Gestapo come searching for their killers?

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='11 May 2010 - 02:42 PM' timestamp='1273603335' post='2108757']
Why do you qualify at the end how many lives it may save? We're not looking at it from a utilitarian point of view, so the numbers really mean nothing at all. You're straying towards utilitarian morality with this question, IMHO.
[/quote]

Deception has saved millions of lives. Perhaps we should abolish the services rendered by U.S. Air Marshalls, since they are required to pose as civilians on planes and even lie when questioned by fellow passengers in order to preserve their identity for the safety of others.

[HisChildForever]

I just want to say that I do not advocate lying, but in extraordinary circumstances I cannot see how it is immoral (just as it is not immoral to take a human life under certain extraordinary circumstances).

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='11 May 2010 - 01:52 PM' timestamp='1273603966' post='2108766']
I just want to say that I do not advocate lying, but in extraordinary circumstances I cannot see how it is immoral (just as it is not immoral to take a human life under certain extraordinary circumstances).
[/quote]
What this comes down to is that we may throw away parts of the Catechism in extreme circumstances. What is it for if not for the most extreme? As I've conclusively demonstrated, the question of killing is not at all the same. You're arguing with the words of the Catechism, not with me. Trust me, it's not an easy position for me either.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='11 May 2010 - 04:04 PM' timestamp='1273608288' post='2108827']
What this comes down to is that we may throw away parts of the Catechism in extreme circumstances. What is it for if not for the most extreme? As I've conclusively demonstrated, the question of killing is not at all the same. You're arguing with the words of the Catechism, not with me. Trust me, it's not an easy position for me either.
[/quote]

God always has to be right. *kicks pebbles*

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='11 May 2010 - 03:09 PM' timestamp='1273608590' post='2108832']
God always has to be right. *kicks pebbles*
[/quote]
True story.