Lying To Nazis

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='11 May 2010 - 08:16 AM' timestamp='1273583798' post='2108602']
I suggested an alternative in post #147. Can you suggest any? You keep telling me to pick the Catholic option or use my imagination, but you fail to suggest actual examples. Besides committing murder, anyway.
[/quote]

I also suggested an alternative, in post 57. Deception, of which there are myriad examples, is perfectly acceptable, as long as it does not involve lying. The bottom line remains: you may not lie. Nor may you voluntarily surrender the innocent Jews to the Germans. There is a broad range for human action between those two extremes.

~Sternhauser

Edited May 11, 2010 by Sternhauser

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='11 May 2010 - 09:12 AM' timestamp='1273583529' post='2108597']
I honestly PROMISE that I am not trying to be difficult, I just am having an incredibly hard time with this. Lying is certainly immoral but I could just not live with myself if I handed innocent people over to the Nazis. And I TRULY think God would understand, I am not just saying that to make myself look good.
[/quote]
E-

I know you have trouble with this. And I believe you when you say you are not trying to be difficult. This is why you and I went round and round about torture.

By saying I must choose evil, how is it that God will understand when you have taken Him out of the equation by limiting choices to a big evil or a small evil?

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='MIkolbe' date='11 May 2010 - 09:26 AM' timestamp='1273584379' post='2108610']
E-

I know you have trouble with this. And I believe you when you say you are not trying to be difficult. This is why you and I went round and round about torture.[/quote]

I was going to ask if you saw 24 last night.



Yes, I am seeing this situation as similar to our discussion on torture. However, the two cannot really be compared - not saying you are comparing them however - because torture inflicts pain on another individual (as well as on yourself), whereas I doubt the Nazis would experience any kind of suffering if they believe the lie you told.

[quote]By saying I must choose evil, how is it that God will understand when you have taken Him out of the equation by limiting choices to a big evil or a small evil?
[/quote]

There are definitely two "black-and-white" ways of looking at this issue. (Edit: As well as alternative ways, but the question is if said alternative ways would be enough.)

When I say "either lie to the Nazis or let them take the Jews" I think everyone, if [u]only[/u] given those two options, would choose the latter. Or at least that is the way the black-and-white situation is set up. If that makes sense. Of course, choosing to lie is immoral, just the lesser of two evils.

When you say "either you do a big evil or a small evil" I think everyone, again if [u]only[/u] given those two options, would choose the latter.

I am just concerned that being deceptive without lying would [u]not[/u] satisfy the Nazis, especially if they have very good reason to suspect you, and they would just barge into the house.

Edited May 11, 2010 by HisChildForever

[MIKolbe]

LOL.. no I did not see 24. Not my kind of show..though somehow my wife thinks Mr. Sutherland is quite dreamy.

I only said they were similar, not equally comparable...

As for only having 2 choices, I guess that is what I struggle with most. It seems to be a hypothetical situation in which I believe the 2 choices are not the only 2 choices. I disagree more with the insistence (sp?) of These Only Two Choices...ie- i MUST lie or i MUST 'give up the jews in my basement'. It is a hypothetical that cannot, in any way, get us closer to God and His Will, as He is 'thrown out' from this arguments premise. That ultimately is my 'point'.

[havok579257]

if you don't want to lie, don't hide the jews. cause in the end there is only 3 options if you choose to hide the jews in your house.

1. lie
2. murder the nazi which is a sin
3. tell them the jews are hiding in your house

its so easy for everyone on here to say i would use mental reservation or trick the nazi's. sorry but that ain't going to work. the nazi were not dumb. yet most people on here act like they could easily outsmart the nazi's. it wouldn't work. people are just trying to get around this question with nonsense. i want to actually here someone answer this question who is against lying who does not use the cop-out of mental reservation or tricking the nazi's. cause it would not work. so for the people who say they would hide jews but not lie, can we get a realistic answer about what you do when the nazi's come to your door?

[havok579257]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='10 May 2010 - 11:11 PM' timestamp='1273547477' post='2108477']
So just let the Nazis round up the Jews in peace, like everyone else is doing. Or lie. Because sometimes, intrinsically immoral actions are moral. Is that what you're saying? No more word games for you, Havok.



No, what you're saying, without admitting it so far, is, "You should commit the intrinsically immoral act of lying to the Nazis if you hide Jews." Admit it.

Do you want to know who put Jews in a situation that guaranteed them to die? Proximately, the Nazis who were killing Jews. They have the most moral responsibility. They are the murderers. Ultimately, who was responsible for killing the Jews? People who voted to give other men an artificial monopoly on violence, and who yielded the power to assert some "right" to use aggressive violence.

I'm going to lay it out plainly, Havok. One may not do evil that good may come of it. You're a heretic if you obstinately and publicly deny that fact.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]


what i am saying sternhauser is your advocating people sin by murdering nazi's. your theory of what to do when the nazi's come to your door is a sin plain and simple. your signing the death warrents of all the people in your house, all the jews your hiding , all your neighbors and anyone else who witnessed you murder and yet did not report you. your actions do not just have consequences for you, they have consequences for everyone around you. your murdering option is a sin.

the nazi were the ones who put the jews in position to die but if your purposely turn over jews to the nazi, your are just as guilty as the nazi of the jewish murders. sorry, there is not 2 ways around it. you sound like your giving a pass to the person who turns in the jews to the nazi since they don't directly kill the jews. sorry, but it don't work. your just as responsible.

again, i am simply stating if your not going to lie to the nazi, then don't hide jews or your guilty of their murders also.

i have yet to make up my mind about what i would do in the op's scenerio. i am still undecided.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='MIkolbe' date='11 May 2010 - 10:07 AM' timestamp='1273586871' post='2108625']
LOL.. no I did not see 24. Not my kind of show..though somehow my wife thinks Mr. Sutherland is quite dreamy. [/quote]

Okay good because the torture scene last night was pretty bad.

[quote] I only said they were similar, not equally comparable...[/quote]

Yeah I know, which is why I said: [b]However, the two cannot really be compared - [u]not saying you are comparing them however[/u] - [/b]etc.

[quote] As for only having 2 choices, I guess that is what I struggle with most. It seems to be a hypothetical situation in which I believe the 2 choices are not the only 2 choices. I disagree more with the insistence (sp?) of These Only Two Choices...ie- i MUST lie or i MUST 'give up the jews in my basement'. It is a hypothetical that cannot, in any way, get us closer to God and His Will, as He is 'thrown out' from this arguments premise. That ultimately is my 'point'.
[/quote]

You are right, there are a few choices. The question, however, is which choice will be the most successful? I.e. which choice will save the Jews' lives?

How come, in this situation, lying cannot be permissible or justified but killing out of self-defense is?

Edit: How come there cannot be times when lying is permissible, but there are times when killing is permissible, especially since taking a human life is more of a grave matter than a lie?

Edited May 11, 2010 by HisChildForever

[dominicansoul]

the law in germany at that time was to segregate jews from "aryans", so if we consider breaking that man-made law as "criminal" than this would encompass much more than just lying...
...only wanted to mention this, because there are some who claim that breaking a man-made federal law in America is somehow a "sin." Someone was quoted as saying, that the Church teaches we cannot commit any kind of evil to bring about a good...so, if we were good German citizens, we would not only be lying to the Nazi's, but committing some sort of "sin" for breaking the law of the land...

i don't agree with that, by the way, I think its absolutely foolish to think man's law trumps God's laws...

...and the Church has never stated that all lies were sinful...(ie. the common example of "lying" that someone looks pretty, when they are in fact homely and disgusting....)

...in this case, lying to the nazis would be saving lives...i hardly find that to be sinful...

[Jesus_lol]

OR


how about you lie, save their lives, feel bad about the lying, then go to confession?

[Nihil Obstat]

Just to clear the air a bit.......

Killing Nazi gestapo officers during WWII *is not* murder under the circumstances we are discussing.



Mkay thanks, back to the regularly scheduled debate.

Edited May 11, 2010 by Nihil Obstat

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='11 May 2010 - 12:52 PM' timestamp='1273596779' post='2108688']
Just to clear the air a bit.......

Killing Nazi gestapo officers during WWII *is not* murder under the circumstances we are discussing.



Mkay thanks, back to the regularly scheduled debate.
[/quote]

How? If they just knock at your door and do not display any signs of aggression towards you?

This is just baffling, Nihil. Murdering the Nazis would be okay, but lying to them would NOT be okay?

Edited May 11, 2010 by HisChildForever

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='11 May 2010 - 12:25 PM' timestamp='1273598730' post='2108708']
How? If they just knock at your door and do not display any signs of aggression towards you?

This is just baffling, Nihil. Murdering the Nazis would be okay, but lying to them would NOT be okay?
[/quote]
In this situation, it's murder as much as is ambushing a group of soldiers, meaning not at all.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='11 May 2010 - 01:39 PM' timestamp='1273599594' post='2108715']
In this situation, it's murder as much as is ambushing a group of soldiers, meaning not at all.
[/quote]

So lying to them is a sin, but murdering them is not. Based on the premise that it would be an act of war to murder them, why could it not be an act of war to lie to them?

Edited May 11, 2010 by HisChildForever

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='11 May 2010 - 12:44 PM' timestamp='1273599895' post='2108719']
So lying to them is a sin, but murdering them is not. Based on the premise that it would be an act of war to murder them, why could it not be an act of war to lie to them?
[/quote]
Murdering them would be a sin, but killing them does not necessarily mean murdering them.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='11 May 2010 - 01:51 PM' timestamp='1273600281' post='2108726']
Murdering them would be a sin, but killing them does not necessarily mean murdering them.
[/quote]

Fine, let me rephrase it. Killing them is okay, but lying to them is not. Correct?