Discernment To "liberal" Orders

[HollyDolly]

[quote name='Gemma' post='1480631' date='Mar 20 2008, 11:26 AM']Yes, we are all servants, and yes, a vocation is a gift of God. What we make of it is our gift to Him.

To discerners who feel called to "heterodox" communities, I tell them to keep their eyes open. Gut feeling will usually indicate that you're in the wrong place. Rely on the "ERNK" feeling as well.

One discerner said she wanted to wear the habit, and asked how she could go about doing it. I told her to check the rule. If it mentions the habit option, no one can criticize her for doing so. If the rule doesn't say anything, then seek out the directress and superior. As St. Francis de Sales said, "quietly and without anxiety" state your case. If they still pitch a fit (and believe me, some of them can get very ugly about it), then wear a babushka and a jumper combination.

There was a discerner on another forum who was talking about the heterodox views of some sisters in a novitiate of a dying community. Either enter with orthodox beliefs, and pray for the community to come to their spiritual senses, or leave. That's all one can do.

Please keep me in your prayers this weekend. My Triduum will be spent discerning spirits at my MIL's house to see if we need to file a formal request for a diocesan exorcism.

Blessings,
Gemma[/quote]
What's going on at your MIL's House? Is it ghosts or something else? What exactly is going on there?
I'm no paranormal expert, but have you tried contacting any paranormal investigation groups like TAPS,The Atlantic Paranormal Society or some group in your area? If you go to their website they have groups listed who are part of the TAPS family ,by state.
You might want to request a house blessing from your parish priest,and maybe that will help,or is it really bad.
Smell of sulfur, things being thrown around, have people been hit by thrown objects, or attacked?
I am curious why the evil one would target your MIL unless it is to get back at you for trying to do God's work.
Did anyone there play with an ouija board,or perhasp purchase an antique that might be haunted?
How long has this been going on?
Has anyone tried to tape record or video record what's going on?
We will all be praying for you.

[Veritas]

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They are also sponsors of the "New Ways Ministry", which is is direct opposition to the Church's teaching on sexuality. The "ministry" has been condemned, but the Franciscan Sisters of Perpetual Adoration of WI continue to support it. I could give you a few more examples of direct rebellion as well.

[Veritas]

[quote name='praying4carmel' post='1480619' date='Mar 20 2008, 10:52 AM']Thanks to everyone who has responded to this thread..

My intention was to bring up the subject of Uncomfortableness in posting for those of us discerning to more 'Heterodox" communites. I said "Liberal" because I felt that more people would understand what I was saying; was not trying to get political in my terms..sorry.

To hear what Gemma has said about neo-pagan types infiltrating communites that is horrifying to say the least! I do not doubt it at all because I have read stuff about things like this happening. However my intention was to state that there were people discerning to heterodox communities, and they felt they could not speak. I am grateful beyond measure that so many people are responding. I do not think that Phatmassers are likely to go to some community where they are doing Solstice Celebrations! But we may discern at other heterodox Orders. My intention was to help people feel safe to post their journeys and ask for prayers.[/quote]

+

I'm sure you didn't intend it, but several scandalous things were said here.

In response: Primarily, we shouldn't encourage discernment to heterodox communities. It is not in line with Preaching Holy Apostolic Truth -the mission of phatmass. Preaching, teaching, and living heterodoxy is by it's very definition not with the Church! Again, I'm sure you just didn't realize what you were saying.

Finally, regarding "safety" I believe you mean individuals should be able to post what they like comfortably and without reproach. However, not all things are about comfort. Not all things are equally true or good Sometimes, the truth is difficult and uncomfortable because we live in a fallen world. As Catholics, we have a duty to be honest and truthful when particular communities attack the Church and to point out if and when particular communities have fallen into error and not to support those communities. Of course, we should do this with charity and prudence and prayers.

I wish you all the best,
V

[TradMom]

[color="#A0522D"]Praised be Jesus Christ!
Some very good posts here, some heated! Nunsense, you have brought up some excellent points and I hope the readers here will read them with care.
I have not - on purpose - shared the details on my daughter's entrance and quick exit from a lovely Carmel. That is her story, and at some point, I have no doubt she will share it. I have known the Prioress for a long time (before that daughter was born!) and so I felt (personally) very happy that she joined a Monastery that I had a personal connection with. It was a wonderful experience. However, it was not the place for my daughter, and please do not read this thinking, "Oh...she joined ONLY because of her mother!" (I wish I had that much power!)
My daughter continues to feel the call of Jesus within her heart, and she is still looking for the "right place." She is drawn to the habit, but she is open to God's call.
As I read through some of these posts, with the name calling, and the "I am right" attitude, I couldn't help but wonder what Jesus thinks of this!
What do you think WE would have said to St. Francis as he spoke so beautifully about the wonders of God's creation?! And when he wrote the Canticle of the Creatures, and said "Blessed be our Brother the Sun, or our Sister the Moon..." Would we have immediately said he was acting as a pagan, and worshipping the sun or the moon or the earth!?
I haven't seen the picture of the sisters holding a bowl up, but I have seen the Summit OP's singing a song to the tune "Play That Funky Music, White Boy." We happen to know the Summit OP's because of Sister Mary Catharine, and we know they balance their life with recreation and prayer, but I have no doubt that someone who didn't know them would think that video is thoroughly disrespectful of the habit and the sacredness of the Clothing Day! They would loudly object to a song about drugs and one-night stands being used to celebrate the holy habit! Right!?
I cannot help but feel this thread has just reached a very hurtful level.
We cannot know what is in the hearts and minds of all of God's children, and to characterize someone because of a random photo or their clothing cannot be what Our Lord wishes for us.
P4C, I am sure I know "your" Carmel, for I recognize the photo. Lovely, indeed. Prayerful, holy women.
The purpose of the habit, as it been pointed out, is to preach and bear witness. What a perfect time to reflect upon a quote found on a Franciscan Vocation website:

To his own followers, then and now, Francis said in effect:
Be special. You may be the only Gospel
your neighbor will ever read.[/color]

[Veritas]

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Name calling?

Sometimes how people interpret posts is beyond me. There's a saying from the Talmud -"We do not see things as they are, we see them as we are." It does seem that people tend to bring a lot of baggage into their reading.

[Veritas]

[quote name='TradMom' post='1480919' date='Mar 20 2008, 08:15 PM'][color="#A0522D"]Praised be Jesus Christ!

As I read through some of these posts, with the name calling, and the "I am right" attitude, I couldn't help but wonder what Jesus thinks of this!
What do you think WE would have said to St. Francis as he spoke so beautifully about the wonders of God's creation?! And when he wrote the Canticle of the Creatures, and said "Blessed be our Brother the Sun, or our Sister the Moon..." Would we have immediately said he was acting as a pagan, and worshipping the sun or the moon or the earth!?
I haven't seen the picture of the sisters holding a bowl up, but I have seen the Summit OP's singing a song to the tune "Play That Funky Music, White Boy." We happen to know the Summit OP's because of Sister Mary Catharine, and we know they balance their life with recreation and prayer, but I have no doubt that someone who didn't know them would think that video is thoroughly disrespectful of the habit and the sacredness of the Clothing Day! They would loudly object to a song about drugs and one-night stands being used to celebrate the holy habit! Right!?
.[/color][/quote]

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Hmmm.... I wonder if someone is really saying, "The Church is right." and instead, it is interpreted as an individual opinion. That is a very important distinction.

A bit of jest, is different from the center of one's spirituality. Saint Francis wasn't a hippy doing reiki and energy centering. He recognized God's creation and personified elements of it, but he wasn't a dissident. Apples and oranges.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

Double post.

Edited March 21, 2008 by Cathoholic Anonymous

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='Veritas' post='1481113' date='Mar 21 2008, 05:49 AM']+

Hmmm.... I wonder if someone is really saying, "The Church is right." and instead, it is interpreted as an individual opinion. That is a very important distinction.

A bit of jest, is different from the center of one's spirituality. Saint Francis wasn't a hippy doing reiki and energy centering. He recognized God's creation and personified elements of it, but he wasn't a dissident. Apples and oranges.[/quote]

I think TradMom's point was that if St Francis had lived today he could easily have been written off as a dissident. His approach to spirituality was not conventional, either for his time or for this.

Since I came to PM, two years ago now, I've noticed that whenever there is a criticism of a community or an organisation with a reputation for being 'traditional' - I think especially of Regnum Christi and Opus Dei - the most bizarre-sounding rules and ideas, however disturbing they are to some discerners, are staunchly defended. It is simply taken on faith that these organisations must have wonderful reasons for everything that they do simply because they are Traditional (insert the trademark sign here). In one thread on the Legionaries of Christ, quite a few people got upset with discerners' criticisms and said that it was uncharitable to post them on a public forum.

Non-habited communities, by contrast, are automatically treated as guilty until proven innocent. Perhaps we throw a platitude in their direction - 'they may be nice, kind women' - but in spite of our tremendous generosity of spirit in making this concession, we remain convinced that they are sub-par. Not real religious. Bitter old women who want to be priests and probably sacrifice to nature in their spare time. I still wince when I remember what happened to Sister Helga on Vocation Station. She joined a community that didn't quite pass the VS quality control, and this was the signal for people to pitch in and talk about how community had ditched the habit in favour of earrings and makeup, how they had invited dissident speakers to talk at a university that they ran, and - of course - how they were into 'earth-based spirituality'. It turned out that this may not have even been Sr Helga's community - there was confusion about which rumour belonged to which place. When I looked at an article in which Sr Helga had been featured, I saw the novices in habits and veils, so I knew that the story about earrings and makeup was wrong for sure. But the damage was done. Sr Helga left PM for good - just as Sr Lynn, a sister of a non-habited community, has just done.

If there is something about our orthodoxy that is driving people away, it's a funny sort of orthodoxy.

[gloriagurl]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1481139' date='Mar 21 2008, 08:20 AM']I think TradMom's point was that if St Francis had lived today he could easily have been written off as a dissident. His approach to spirituality was not conventional, either for his time or for this.

Since I came to PM, two years ago now, I've noticed that whenever there is a criticism of a community or an organisation with a reputation for being 'traditional' - I think especially of Regnum Christi and Opus Dei - the most bizarre-sounding rules and ideas, however disturbing they are to some discerners, are staunchly defended. It is simply taken on faith that these organisations must have wonderful reasons for everything that they do simply because they are Traditional (insert the trademark sign here). In one thread on the Legionaries of Christ, quite a few people got upset with discerners' criticisms and said that it was uncharitable to post them on a public forum.

Non-habited communities, by contrast, are automatically treated as guilty until proven innocent. Perhaps we throw a platitude in their direction - 'they may be nice, kind women' - but in spite of our tremendous generosity of spirit in making this concession, we remain convinced that they are sub-par. Not real religious. Bitter old women who want to be priests and probably sacrifice to nature in their spare time. I still wince when I remember what happened to Sister Helga on Vocation Station. She joined a community that didn't quite pass the VS quality control, and this was the signal for people to pitch in and talk about how community had ditched the habit in favour of earrings and makeup, how they had invited dissident speakers to talk at a university that they ran, and - of course - how they were into 'earth-based spirituality'. It turned out that this may not have even been Sr Helga's community - there was confusion about which rumour belonged to which place. When I looked at an article in which Sr Helga had been featured, I saw the novices in habits and veils, so I knew that the story about earrings and makeup was wrong for sure. But the damage was done. Sr Helga left PM for good - just as Sr Lynn, a sister of a non-habited community, has just done.

If there is something about our orthodoxy that is driving people away, it's a funny sort of orthodoxy.[/quote]


AMEN, Catholic Anonymous!

[TotusTuusMaria]

JMJ

I have questions for everyone that has posted thus, far.

What makes a community heterodox (or "liberal", as put in the original post) ?

What are characteristics that a heterodox community commonly has, but nevertheless does not make them heterodox?

Edited March 21, 2008 by TotusTuusMaria

[By His Grace Alone]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1481139' date='Mar 21 2008, 08:20 AM']I think TradMom's point was that if St Francis had lived today he could easily have been written off as a dissident. His approach to spirituality was not conventional, either for his time or for this.

Since I came to PM, two years ago now, I've noticed that whenever there is a criticism of a community or an organisation with a reputation for being 'traditional' - I think especially of Regnum Christi and Opus Dei - the most bizarre-sounding rules and ideas, however disturbing they are to some discerners, are staunchly defended. It is simply taken on faith that these organisations must have wonderful reasons for everything that they do simply because they are Traditional (insert the trademark sign here). In one thread on the Legionaries of Christ, quite a few people got upset with discerners' criticisms and said that it was uncharitable to post them on a public forum.

Non-habited communities, by contrast, are automatically treated as guilty until proven innocent. Perhaps we throw a platitude in their direction - 'they may be nice, kind women' - but in spite of our tremendous generosity of spirit in making this concession, we remain convinced that they are sub-par. Not real religious. Bitter old women who want to be priests and probably sacrifice to nature in their spare time. I still wince when I remember what happened to Sister Helga on Vocation Station. She joined a community that didn't quite pass the VS quality control, and this was the signal for people to pitch in and talk about how community had ditched the habit in favour of earrings and makeup, how they had invited dissident speakers to talk at a university that they ran, and - of course - how they were into 'earth-based spirituality'. It turned out that this may not have even been Sr Helga's community - there was confusion about which rumour belonged to which place. When I looked at an article in which Sr Helga had been featured, I saw the novices in habits and veils, so I knew that the story about earrings and makeup was wrong for sure. But the damage was done. Sr Helga left PM for good - just as Sr Lynn, a sister of a non-habited community, has just done.

If there is something about our orthodoxy that is driving people away, it's a funny sort of orthodoxy.[/quote]

Sadly, I agree with what you have said. Srs. Helga and Lynn went in the right direction...away from this forum and I find that, with them, it is time for me to leave as well. The more I have read on here the more disturbed I am by many of the comments. What I have been utterly stunned by on this site is the lack of basic Christian charity which seems to permeate this forum, and this comment is not restricted to the secular personnel among us. However, it is in the nature of the self-righteous and pompous that they cannot see themselves. I am stating the fact of what I have seen, it requires no comment, although I am fully aware that to disagree with the prevailing opinion on this forum is to invite a barrage of negative comments and some outright insults. Therefore, I am done. I wish you allj, each and everyone, the best.

[TradMom]

Praised be Jesus Christ!

Catholic Anonymous,
You said it all...beautifully.
Thank you for understanding and clarifying my thoughts.
I wonder how many people have left that didn't have the energy or time to say goodbye? We will certainly miss Sister Lynn and By His Grace Alone! I know I share the feelings of others in saying I am sad to see them go...

[Guest Perpetualove]

Gemma,

Perhaps in addition to discerning evil spirits, planning a religious community that accepts autistic women, complete with a convent "cooling down" room, or creating habits based on movie costumes, you can organize yet another congregation, this one devoted to praying for women who do not dress, pray or conduct themselves according to your standards.

I have really lost my patience with your posts. I have read your website forwards and backwards and still have no idea what it is that you do or if any of this is even real. I belong to many of your yahoo groups, and even with that added benefit, I am still at a loss in understanding your mission and/or work!
I am writing this publicly because I think you underestimate the effect your words have on others. You are no more an authority on religious life than my dog is - or I am.

This is a very private, personal process, involving individual souls and Jesus. The best one can hope for - along the way - is to find support, encouragement and prayers. In my own discernment, I have struggled with the secular world holding religious life as a terrible choice. It has made me second guess my vocation, my heart, my desires. Finding Vocation Station was - I thought - a wonderful blessing, for I hoped to find others who were in the same boat, and I looked forward to finding companionship.

For the most part, I have found that here. I have made some lovely friends through Phatmass, women (and men!) I hope to be in contact with for the rest of my life, in or out the convent, and I have learned a lot. I have appreciated the pictures/photos, the links, the stories, the personal sharing that so many women have had the courage to share. This couldn't have been easy for many of our members, especially those who have entered and then returned. Their stories are a glimpse into the most personal part of a person - their very soul! - and this deserves the greatest respect and care. We are blessed, beyond words, to have an opportunity to learn from those who are willing to risk their anonymity and share their stories!

Doesn't it seem INSANE that the very place that should be safe and supportive has turned into a destructive, name-calling, judgemental arena?

I find this totally unacceptable, for it has ruined the very point of having a forum. At this point, we don't have a Canon Lawyer on this board who can explain the fine print. If someone is in discernment with a community that might be questionable, we - as a forum - should advise them to seek out the Vocation Office at their diocese OR a solid spiritual director for clarification.

I work for the Church and have worked very closely with a variety of communities. Believe it or not, Gemma, the Bishops are aware of what is going on. If something is "weird" within a community, like howling at the moon or changing the language of official prayers, they get in trouble. Sometimes in public and sometimes in private, but the proper order of addressing abuses and problems is followed - even in a "liberal" diocese like the one that I work in. There are many communities out there who have been "in trouble" for various abuses and bizarre spiritualities. The most recent (and well publicized) community that was investigated by the Vatican and "corrected," was a fully habited "traditional" community (not in my area). Personally, even after everything that has happened within our Church in the recent years, I still trust our leadership to do their job and follow the correct steps in handling problems.

Today as I read these posts, I couldn't help but reflect on the fact that this has exploded on Good Friday. In reflecting on the Stations of The Cross, I always stumble at the first one, for as Jesus was condemned to death, and Pilate washed his hands, I never fail to think of all the times I have stood silent. It is so much easier to remain silent while others are put down, condemned and judged. As someone else has already said, who knows how many people have left this source of support because of this?

Perpetualove

(edited for typo)

Edited March 21, 2008 by Perpetualove

[veroni213]

As a frequent lurker I agree with a lot of what has been said here. I think habits are good, important, etc. and look forward to seeing more religious return to the habit, but there is a whole lot of unconstructive discussion of the issue. It's not the [i]most [/i]essential thing to the identity of a religious and shouldn't be causing the kind of division it does.

I also take issue with the frequent use of the phrase "liberal communities are dying out." It may be true, but it sometimes comes with a faint hint of schadenfreude. It's always sad when communities die- whether they go out faithful or not. Also, it seems to suggest that the success of a community in attracting vocations is directly related to its faithfulness. Trust me- there are a lot of faithful communities that don't get mentioned on PM that disprove this theory. Of course this is something else that doesn't get discussed here too much...

[cmotherofpirl]

In the interests of charity this thread is closed for the rest of the day.

Kindly ponder the fact this is a message board for adults discerning their path in life. If you can't handle disagreements and differing temperments on a board how will you function in a convent? monestary? job? or marriage?

If you disagree, stand your ground and prove your point.

Christianity is not for the faint -hearted.