Discernment To "liberal" Orders

[AccountDeleted]

Wow - I had no idea that link would spark such controversy. I hope that csj doesn't stop posting here just because of it. I must admit that I didn't read the whole blog - just took in parts of it that I enjoyed, so I missed all the negative stuff.

As for the habit, I will jump in here because I think I have the experience to do so now. Before entering Carmel, the habit was very important to me because it idealized my view of nuns and religious life. I considered communities with a modified habit, but not ones with no habit - they weren't romantic enough for me

Having worn the habit for a total of two months, I must say I felt like it was an embrace from Jesus, and I loved it as a symbol of my desire to consecrate myself to Him. But am I less in love with Him now that I no longer have the right to wear the habit? Am I less committed to loving Him and finding where He wants me? Of course not. The habit is one aspect of a life that has many different ways to express love for Jesus. The discernment process is to help a person find (through their natural affinities) just where their soul will feel most at peace serving Our Lord.

Would I like to wear a habit again? Yes. Would I like it to be a full and traditional habit? Yes. But will that be the deciding factor in where I end up? No, definitely not. God knows my heart's desires but He also knows what is best for my soul, and if I trust Him, then whatever happens will bring me closer to Him. I have learned that time alone with Him is more important to me than what I am wearing, so now I know that much, discernment gets just a little easier.

As for the terms "late vocation" or "delayed vocation" - I really don't think we need to worry about this. It is true that many US communities have an upper age limit, but I am pretty convinced that most of this is because of the high cost of health care in this country (although there are other reasons as well). In the UK, where health care is government funded, upper age limits seem to be mostly unknown! Whatever label is applied to us, the fact is that we are souls who are seeking to love Our Lord. Jesus blessed those who were persecuted for His name's sake. So if we have to wear an unattractive label or two while seeking to grow closer to Him - so be it - we are blessed.

It is good that we can open up and express ourselves here, and phatmass is a wonderful source of information and support.

In the end, it is all about love. The bridegroom of our soul calls, and we seek to respond. The discernment process is all about finding out just where He wants us - for the good of our soul - because He loves each one of us more than we could ever comprehend.

[Veritas]

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The Holy Father Pope John Paul II asked for the wearing of a habit. Period. The habit doesn't make one holy, but let's face it, to not wear one isn't okay. Another point, look at the history of the LCWR the umbrella organization of many of these decaying orders, it has a deep, sad history of disobedience. The roots often, and sadly, bear fruit. We've talked about this ad nauseum in previous threads. No one is saying communities of non-habit wearing sisters don't do good things and aren't kind women. However, people are making distinctions between orthodoxy and heterodoxy, obedience and disobedience and these are VERY good distinctions! This isn't about a religious community "fitting me" as the end all and be all. It's about being faithful to Christ and his Church!

Finally, Gemma makes an extremely relevant point: "liberal" and "conservative" are political terms. It is NOT appropriate to use them when talking about religious groups. Catholics are either faithful or unfaithful. Neither political term encompasses all of Catholic teaching so let's stop shortchanging each other with their usurpation.

While I certainly hope not all communities of disobedient (perhaps unknowingly) non-habit wearing sisters don't all want to be "priestesses" although unfortunately here in MN there are a good number of them. The blogger's generalizations certainly shouldn't be taken as gospel, but they may, unfortunately speak of his experience with such sisters as it speaks of mine. This doesn't excuse, but may explain.

Now, do we want to talk about real discernment issues? Fine. But it's alright for the girls to be excited about a habit, too!

Edited March 20, 2008 by Veritas

[cmotherofpirl]

In the end, the habit is not about holiness, but about witness. And the visible witness of embracing God has been lost for the most part in our society. Many sisters for various reasons have become invisible to the rest of the world. You can't call, and lead and challenge the world to God if you are invisible. A sister in whatever modified habit is a sign God is with us, calling us and loves us. That is the value of a habit.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1480531' date='Mar 19 2008, 10:29 PM']In the end, the habit is not about holiness, but about witness. And the visible witness of embracing God has been lost for the most part in our society. Many sisters for various reasons have become invisible to the rest of the world. You can't call, and lead and challenge the world to God if you are invisible. A sister in whatever modified habit is a sign God is with us, calling us and loves us. That is the value of a habit.[/quote]


Well said. I remember our chaplain used to say how much he loved to see nuns in town who were wearing a habit because it was a witness to Christ. It immediately identified the women as being consecrated to God. He said that Sikhs wear a turban to bear witness to their faith so why shouldn't Catholics also bear witness?

I think one of the things we need to be careful of here is not to become like Pharisees. Jesus said "Everything they do is to attract attention, like wearing broader headbands and longer tassels..." in an attempt to appear holier than others. When Mother Teresa of Calcutta left Loretto, she put on a habit that was poor and common to the Indian population - a sari. Now this is a recognised habit of the Missionaries of Charity and everyone recognises it as a sign of service to others for love of Christ. So it doesn't have to be old fashioned or "traditional" to be a witness to Christ -

[i]The religious habit, as a symbol of consecration, must be simple and modest, at once poor and becoming. In addition, it must be in keeping with the requirements of health, and it must be suited to the times and place and to the needs of the apostolate.[/i]

I like the words "poor" and "becoming". Now we all have different ideas as to what is [u]becoming[/u], so I guess that depends on the decision of each community. In order to be recognizable as a habit, I personally think that communities should strive to all wear the same thing (and not a variety of different choices), and since the veil has always been a sign of consecration (originally a consecrated virgin), it only makes sense (to me) that communities should also include a veil in their habit.

Having said all that, I realize that there are still very good communities out there who choose not to wear a habit. I don't know what to say about this except to pray that they think about the Holy Father's request for all Religious to continue to be visible witnesses for Christ and His Church:

[i] "Rejoice to be witnesses to Christ in the modern world. Do not hesitate to be recognizable, identifiable, in the streets – as men and women who have consecrated their lives to God and who have given up everything worldly to follow Christ" [/i](Given to Religious in Ireland).

[url="http://www.cmswr.org/spiritual_reflections/habit.htm"]Link for quotes[/url]

Edited March 20, 2008 by nunsense

[Veritas]

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Excellent post, Nunsense. Thanks for the quotes!

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='csj' post='1480454' date='Mar 20 2008, 03:47 AM']I am done with this forum. It is beyond my belief that women and men discerning where God is calling them are spending more time judging communities to which they are not called then being attentive to God's call in their own life. Then when one person has the courage to speak up about it, the response is to call communities who are in full communion with the church Heterodox?

As a religious woman, I have tried to stay charitable and only answer posts that I felt I my own discernment story may be helpful and not get involved in these immature habit/non-habit debates. But this has sunk to a level that I can no longer bear to read.

For those of you discerning your call in life, my prayers are with you. For those of you here for other purposes, my prayers are also with you.

Peace to you all,
S. Lynn[/quote]

Please do not go, Sister Lynn. We need you here.

[Gemma]

[quote name='csj' post='1480454' date='Mar 19 2008, 11:47 PM']I am done with this forum. It is beyond my belief that women and men discerning where God is calling them are spending more time judging communities to which they are not called then being attentive to God's call in their own life. Then when one person has the courage to speak up about it, the response is to call communities who are in full communion with the church Heterodox?

As a religious woman, I have tried to stay charitable and only answer posts that I felt I my own discernment story may be helpful and not get involved in these immature habit/non-habit debates. But this has sunk to a level that I can no longer bear to read.

For those of you discerning your call in life, my prayers are with you. For those of you here for other purposes, my prayers are also with you.

Peace to you all,
S. Lynn[/quote]

Concerning the nomenclature of this particular thread which brought out your wrath toward me, I had been advised by yet another discerner who has a Masters level education, that "orthodox" and "heterodox" were the appropriate words to use, and that "conservative" and "liberal" are political terms. The only reason some of these religious communities are "still in communion with the Church" is because they haven't been reported.

The only non-habited community I would ever consider joining are the Franciscan Sisters of Perpetual Adoration in Wisconsin.

I know for a fact that Christ speaks through His Church, and when JPII said for religious to put the habit back on, that was JESUS doing the talking. To deny this is heterodoxy.

Speaking to current issues which flail the laity and cause such emotional trauma for them is charity. The way the sisters have been acting since VatII has really hurt and confused the laity. I have a yahoo group dedicated to the religious habit, and we have been airing the members' concerns; explaining why changes were made with the help of a former religious; and ponder the reasons for such extreme behavior on the part of some communities,

Admonishing the sinner is an act of mercy. We here at Cloister Outreach have had reports of very hetrodox behavior in a lot of the "updated" communities, and as I said before, the absence of the habit is in and of itself a flag that there MIGHT be trouble within. A check of the communities' websites more often than not confirms the complaint.

We're talking spiritual dangers here, Sister. A former Dianic priestess who is discerning a vocation right now has visited a whole boatload of convents. She said that entering some of them would be spiritually damaging because what they're doing is bordering on neo-paganism. That is heterodoxy.

I don't consider the habit issue to be "immature." When a local community tossed their habit, and they said "We don't have to wear those COSTUMES anymore," the sister was quoting directly from a bishop who had said that to them at a conference. I was a six year-old Baptist at the time, and her statement filled me with mortal dread. If anything is immature about the habit issue, it's the attitude of the sisters who tossed it when they tossed it.

Then we started hearing some of these sisters complaining about their personalities not being fulfilled, and how the veil was a sign of male oppression. Some sisters publicly challenged the church on issues of birth control, abortion, and women's ordination. One sister wrote a book called "Woman, You're Beautiful!" which was addressed to her sisters in religion. Then we start hearing about "women's spirituality" which is euphemism for wicca/witchcraft. A book called "Ungodly Rage" also documents the heterodoxy of some of these "updated" communities.

I praise God that I was directed away from my local convents--four in all (not here in NC). One of them really went heterodox, hired a "Catholic" neo-pagan as some kind of spiritual director, and had I been there, I would've been forced by the vow of obedience to offer sacrifice to the four winds! (Or would I)? Blind obedience can get one into bigger trouble than independent thinking.

I am making notes of the "abusive" behavior convents had before VatII. Those who come to our proposed Cloister Outreach foundations will not be treated like that. If our foundations take off, and my own sins don't keep me out of Heaven, then I will disown at the Pearly Gates anyone who treated their brother or sister in religion uncharitably.

Peace to you, Sr. Lynn, during this blessed Triduum. May the Passion of Jesus Christ, the school of the saints, be ever in your heart.

Blessings,
Gemma
Coordinator
Cloister Outreach
[url="http://cloisters.tripod.com/"]http://cloisters.tripod.com/[/url]

[praying4carmel]

Thanks to everyone who has responded to this thread..

My intention was to bring up the subject of Uncomfortableness in posting for those of us discerning to more 'Heterodox" communites. I said "Liberal" because I felt that more people would understand what I was saying; was not trying to get political in my terms..sorry.

To hear what Gemma has said about neo-pagan types infiltrating communites that is horrifying to say the least! I do not doubt it at all because I have read stuff about things like this happening. However my intention was to state that there were people discerning to heterodox communities, and they felt they could not speak. I am grateful beyond measure that so many people are responding. I do not think that Phatmassers are likely to go to some community where they are doing Solstice Celebrations! But we may discern at other heterodox Orders. My intention was to help people feel safe to post their journeys and ask for prayers.

The Non-Habited Carmelite Sisters that I know would never, ever, criticize their Sisters for wearing the Habit, even though they have chosen not to. I have discussed this with them. As I get deeper into my discernment I will feel more comfortable bringing that issue to the table but for right now I don't think I can discuss it in a knowledgeable way, as I am not a member of a community.

I have not deliberately chosen communites based on Habit, in fact some of them so wear it, IE Boston. Rather, I am discerning at communites that will take someone at 49, as well as a place that will fit my personality. I think that the psychological aspects are important in discernment and that's why we take tests. It is not a matter of just liking or loving the sisters I am with but also How my personality fits in with Theirs so that they know where my strengths can be put to good use in our Lord's service. Also I will be living with these Sisters for the rest of my Life and Theirs, so they should have some Idea of what they are getting into.. Ha! We all have our quirks...

I will gladly wear the Habit if I come to a community that wears one. My point was not to alienate but just to have people be realistic in their discernment journey. To focus on the Habit Only may lead someone to miss a place where the Lord is directing them. We need to remember, I think, that it is the Lord who is in charge of our Vocation. We should celebrate the fact that the Lord Has Called us and Chosen us! How wonderful! There are many of us here who have all sorts of Vocations: Moms, Dads, 3rd Order folks, students etc, as well as Religious. The fact that the Lord has chosen us to come here and share is wonderful.

I want to take the time to publicly thank Trad Mom for her excellent questions on discernment that were given on the "Going on a Nun Run" thread. They were wonderful.

Thanks to all who have PM'ed me as well...I hope that we can all feel comfortable now enough to share. This was a undercurrent that I felt and saw on the board.. a lack of safety. This Holy Thursday morning it seems that we are all at the place of remembering that we are Servants, not only to Our Lord but to each other.

I pray that Sister Lynn will return.

My blessings to all for a Glorious Easter!

Nancy
P4C

[brendan1104]

They look just as heterodox with the cosmic awareness, dancing around with candles/bowls of incense, etc.

[quote name='Gemma' post='1480589' date='Mar 20 2008, 07:30 AM']The only non-habited community I would ever consider joining are the Franciscan Sisters of Perpetual Adoration in Wisconsin.[/quote]

[Gemma]

Yes, we are all servants, and yes, a vocation is a gift of God. What we make of it is our gift to Him.

To discerners who feel called to "heterodox" communities, I tell them to keep their eyes open. Gut feeling will usually indicate that you're in the wrong place. Rely on the "ERNK" feeling as well.

One discerner said she wanted to wear the habit, and asked how she could go about doing it. I told her to check the rule. If it mentions the habit option, no one can criticize her for doing so. If the rule doesn't say anything, then seek out the directress and superior. As St. Francis de Sales said, "quietly and without anxiety" state your case. If they still pitch a fit (and believe me, some of them can get very ugly about it), then wear a babushka and a jumper combination.

There was a discerner on another forum who was talking about the heterodox views of some sisters in a novitiate of a dying community. Either enter with orthodox beliefs, and pray for the community to come to their spiritual senses, or leave. That's all one can do.

Please keep me in your prayers this weekend. My Triduum will be spent discerning spirits at my MIL's house to see if we need to file a formal request for a diocesan exorcism.

Blessings,
Gemma

[Gemma]

[quote name='brendan1104' post='1480630' date='Mar 20 2008, 12:23 PM']They look just as heterodox with the cosmic awareness, dancing around with candles/bowls of incense, etc.[/quote]

Well, mark them off my list, then. I didn't see that.

Thanks for the heads-up.

Blessings,
Gemma

[fides quarens intellectum]

i can only think of two exceptions:

The Servants of God's Love, in Ann Arbor, MI. They don't wear a habit; they began as an ecumenical group of laywomen, and after the Protestants all left, the bishop asked them to consider becoming a religious institute. They are definitely orthodox, but don't wear a habit - just combinations of navy, tan, and white clothes found at the local thrift store.

The Apostles of the Interior Life, in Illinois. They began in Rome, where wearing a habit creates too many problems for the kind of work they do. For solidarity purposes, the Sisters here in the US don't wear a habit either. Haven't met them personally, but from what i've heard from other people is they are also definitely orthodox.

[AccountDeleted]

This thread has taken some interesting turns, and I am no expert, but some warning flags did pop up as I read some posts so I thought I might mention them.

As for the Pope's opinion on habits, I totally respect this and also happen to agree with him (fortuitously?) but even Pope Benedict XVI in his books on Jesus of Nazareth has stated that he too can have "opinions" and that others are free to disagree with them. I know for most Catholics this is an unthinkable thing because he is the Vicar of Christ and the successor to Peter. But to a convert like me, who often has to explain to her relatives about things like the Pope's infallibility - there is a very definite limit to this
.....

[i]According to the teaching of the First Vatican Council and Catholic tradition, the conditions required for ex cathedra teaching are as follows:

1. "the Roman Pontiff"
2. "speaks ex cathedra" ("that is, when in the discharge of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, and by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority….")
3. "he defines"
4. "that a doctrine concerning faith or morals"
5. "must be held by the whole Church" (Pastor Aeternus, chap. 4)
For a teaching by a pope or ecumenical council to be recognized as infallible, the teaching must make it clear that the Church is to consider it definitive and binding. There is not any specific phrasing required for this, but it is usually indicated by one or both of the following: (1) a verbal formula indicating that this teaching is definitive (such as "We declare, decree and define..."), or (2) an accompanying anathema stating that anyone who deliberately dissents is outside the Catholic Church. For example, in 1950, with Munificentissimus Deus, Pope Pius XII's infallible definition regarding the Assumption of Mary, there are attached these words: "Hence if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which We have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith."[/i]

As far as I know, no Pope has issed ex cathedra rulings on the wearing of the habit. In fact, according to Wikipedia (which is often wrong so please correct me here if it is)..

[i]Since the 1870 solemn declaration of Papal Infallibility by Vatican I, this power has been used only once: in 1950 when Pius XII defined the Assumption of Mary as being an article of faith for Roman Catholics.[/i]

[b]That being said however, as a sign of Catholic unity, I would hope that as many communities as possible would listen to the "wishes" of Holy Father, even if they aren't expressed as ex cathedra pronouncements.[/b]

The other thing that popped up before me was the statement that
[quote]One of them really went heterodox, hired a "Catholic" neo-pagan as some kind of spiritual director, and had I been there, I would've been forced by the vow of obedience to offer sacrifice to the four winds! (Or would I)? Blind obedience can get one into bigger trouble than independent thinking.[/quote]

No Religious is obliged to follow "blind obedience" in this sense. Religious obedience is not binding if the superior asks for something that is either a [u]sin [/u]or [u]illegal[/u]. Of course, sometimes this isn't always known at the time. A religious superior in England left her Carmelite enclosure without the Bishop's permission to found a new community. She took several sisters with her, including Novices. When the Bishop found out, all of them were excommunicated immediately. The Novices did not know that the superior was doing this without permission (why would they ask their superior such a thing?). Later, they were reconciled with the Church because it was accepted that the fault was not theirs and they were all moved to other Carmels. The superior was also reconciled to the Church but removed from her position and was never allowed to leave her convent again (for an enclosed nun, this is hardly a punishment!). It was a very traumatic experience for all the sisters, especially the Novices. There are systems in place to protect those under religious obedience, and I think they do work, which is good because it isn't easy to surrender one's powers of discrimination to another human being, no matter how much one tries to see it as the will of God. When common sense fights against religious obedience - that's when the soul relies totally on His mercy. The Rule of St Albert says "Common sense is the guide to the virtues." but it is amazing sometimes how little common sense there is even in some religious communities The best protection for this is prayer!

And now back to the whole habit issue. Perhaps what could be done to help those who are discerning in communities who do not wear the habit, is to try to list those who are totally in communion with Rome instead of focusing on the ones who dance in the moonlight and offer pagan sacrifices! Every person who joins a community, changes that community in some way just by their presence. And once a sister is able to vote in chapter, then things like wearing the habit can be raised and perhaps a community that is not now wearing the habit, in a few years, might change just because enough sisters joined who really want to wear one! I think most of us here do believe we are here to help each other, not to judge - even spiritually. Jesus made it so clear over and over again that it wasn't our job to judge each other and even St Paul said that Christ would be the judge, not us! That doesn't stop us from having our opinions, but in a way that is supportive and helpful to each other. No one ever changed their opinion just because someone else criticised them!

It all comes back to love again and again . Jesus loved the sinners, the harlots, the tax collecters and the outcasts even though the Pharisees tried to get Him to judge them as harshly as they did. It is imperative that we love each other as He loved us, by being supportive and helpful to each other, in this issue, as in all other matters. Would Jesus judge the non-habited sisters as harshly as we sometimes do, or would He love them so much that all they wanted to do was witness for Him in some external way? I think He would have them back in the habit in no time!

Example and prayer are two of the best means of conversion for most situations. So let everything we post here be full of loving support for each other, and let's help those sisters who are considering non-habited communities - after all - they could be God's very plan to get the habit back on some of those communities - so let's encourage them!

[irishdancer]

[quote name='praying4carmel' post='1480189' date='Mar 19 2008, 03:43 PM']I do thank Nunsense for posting a reply to the Norbertine nuns topic and one of our PMer's discernment there.
However, I did find something in the Blog that was given as a link that disturbed me greatly:

[b]They are doing very well, as are most traditional religious communities. Those orders of Sisters that have kept a discernible Habit, a traditional apostolate, or are cloistered (separated out of the world) are the groups with vocations. The orders that have no habit, don't live in community, don't do traditional religious work do not have vocations. What young woman wants to join a group of bitter older women who want to be priests? Young women are attracted to the altruism of REAL religious life![/b][i][/i]

As an older discerner, this disturbs me greatly. I am going to put myself out there and say that I find comments like this horrifying. Especially from a Priest.

On Phatmass, several of us are discerning to communities but are not discussing it on board but rather amongst ourselves, because we may be discerning at communities that are "non-traditional". I, myself, am discerning at CCA Carmels. These Carmels fit me well and I have found them to be Vibrant and Loving communities. I am also discerning at a Benedictine community that is Non-Habited also. I don't know which way the Lord is going to have me have my final resting place at this moment. However, I have confidence in his Grace and his working in my life and will be obedient to His will.

Is this not what religious life is? Our Obedience to our Lord's calling? Our desire for union with the Divine no matter what our order is and how we can be of service to him?

Sometimes on PM I am distressed at how much time is spent on Habits etc, rather than the real issues of Discernment. I know that PM is "Hardcore Catholic", and I feel that I am in Line with the Magesterium. But I also know that wonderful work is being done by non-habited orders. The Sisters that I know in CCA Carmels are Loving, Laugh, Work hard, etc. They are also ALL BUSINESS when it comes to Prayer. I know because I have seen it with my own eyes. They are NOT "Bitter old women who want to be priests". And they ARE attracting Vocations also. This is the truth!

I felt deeply sad that when Annie--Nunsense-- returned that her first sentence was to have to explain herself and why she left Wolverhampton. I would say that she probably felt that she might be attacked..for "failing".
In my Opinion, We Do NOT Fail in God's service of discernment unless we SIN and are clearly Disobedient to the Lord, Consciously. Discernment is not an easy process, ask Lillibet. As Sr. Mary Catherine has said it is a Mutual Discernment and one that is not made lightly. Both parties must know and discern God's will.

Some of us "oldsters" have struggled for many years not only with our family issues, and life in general, but also with our faith. We feel "seasoned " in our relationship with the Lord. Now that we have consciously and clearly made a decision to pursue religious life many of us feel attacked for not going to a more traditional order. Many have PM'd me and have told me this. I am asking that there be some focus on the Discernment aspects in posts; struggles, joys and triumphs as well as the traditional and non-traditional aspects. There is alot of wisdom out there that is not getting shared because people are reluctant to post.

Thanks for listening Phamily. We all need each others prayers, in these times and always.

Nancy
"praying4carmel"[/quote]

I also cringed when I read that part of the blog. Having gotten to know the community a little through the process of asking to come and see, I can't but imagine that if any of them saw the blog, they would be saddened by that statement. Both humility and gentleness are core to the Norbertine Nun's charism and this was neither. Surely God is Big enough to make a place for each of us.

Going into retreat and praying for us all.

Michaela

[johnnydigit]

[quote name='praying4carmel' post='1480189' date='Mar 19 2008, 01:43 PM'][b]They are doing very well, as are most traditional religious communities. Those orders of Sisters that have kept a discernible Habit, a traditional apostolate, or are cloistered (separated out of the world) are the groups with vocations. The orders that have no habit, don't live in community, don't do traditional religious work do not have vocations. What young woman wants to join a group of bitter older women who want to be priests? Young women are attracted to the altruism of REAL religious life![/b][i][/i][/quote]

pretty harsh indeed. i too need to work on my pointed tongue. "i have always regretted things i've said. i have never regretted biting my tongue."

[quote name='Sister Rose Therese' post='1480465' date='Mar 19 2008, 08:59 PM']You know, I don't know whether this is a valid statement of the times but it sure seems that people are polarizing so much. There is such an extreme difference in opinions these days and there doesn't seem to be anything in the middle.
It seems to be happening in religion as a whole and in politics.
I don't know, maybe this isn't something new, but it seems to me to be building.[/quote]

yes i sense that, too. if i'm not like people around me concerning the faith, i'm more on the extreme, radical side of traditionalism, or just liberal. i think this may even want me to be even more polarized, in order that i can "defend" my position in either group. it reminds me of junior high and high school. i guess you just can't avoid such things in life - peer pressure, cliques, etc.