Discernment To "liberal" Orders

[praying4carmel]

I do thank Nunsense for posting a reply to the Norbertine nuns topic and one of our PMer's discernment there.
However, I did find something in the Blog that was given as a link that disturbed me greatly:

[b]They are doing very well, as are most traditional religious communities. Those orders of Sisters that have kept a discernible Habit, a traditional apostolate, or are cloistered (separated out of the world) are the groups with vocations. The orders that have no habit, don't live in community, don't do traditional religious work do not have vocations. What young woman wants to join a group of bitter older women who want to be priests? Young women are attracted to the altruism of REAL religious life![/b][i][/i]

As an older discerner, this disturbs me greatly. I am going to put myself out there and say that I find comments like this horrifying. Especially from a Priest.

On Phatmass, several of us are discerning to communities but are not discussing it on board but rather amongst ourselves, because we may be discerning at communities that are "non-traditional". I, myself, am discerning at CCA Carmels. These Carmels fit me well and I have found them to be Vibrant and Loving communities. I am also discerning at a Benedictine community that is Non-Habited also. I don't know which way the Lord is going to have me have my final resting place at this moment. However, I have confidence in his Grace and his working in my life and will be obedient to His will.

Is this not what religious life is? Our Obedience to our Lord's calling? Our desire for union with the Divine no matter what our order is and how we can be of service to him?

Sometimes on PM I am distressed at how much time is spent on Habits etc, rather than the real issues of Discernment. I know that PM is "Hardcore Catholic", and I feel that I am in Line with the Magesterium. But I also know that wonderful work is being done by non-habited orders. The Sisters that I know in CCA Carmels are Loving, Laugh, Work hard, etc. They are also ALL BUSINESS when it comes to Prayer. I know because I have seen it with my own eyes. They are NOT "Bitter old women who want to be priests". And they ARE attracting Vocations also. This is the truth!

I felt deeply sad that when Annie--Nunsense-- returned that her first sentence was to have to explain herself and why she left Wolverhampton. I would say that she probably felt that she might be attacked..for "failing".
In my Opinion, We Do NOT Fail in God's service of discernment unless we SIN and are clearly Disobedient to the Lord, Consciously. Discernment is not an easy process, ask Lillibet. As Sr. Mary Catherine has said it is a Mutual Discernment and one that is not made lightly. Both parties must know and discern God's will.

Some of us "oldsters" have struggled for many years not only with our family issues, and life in general, but also with our faith. We feel "seasoned " in our relationship with the Lord. Now that we have consciously and clearly made a decision to pursue religious life many of us feel attacked for not going to a more traditional order. Many have PM'd me and have told me this. I am asking that there be some focus on the Discernment aspects in posts; struggles, joys and triumphs as well as the traditional and non-traditional aspects. There is alot of wisdom out there that is not getting shared because people are reluctant to post.

Thanks for listening Phamily. We all need each others prayers, in these times and always.

Nancy
"praying4carmel"

[cathoholic_anonymous]

That paragraph in the blog made me wince as well, but more because of the connection that Father made. It is important not to let our preconceptions blind us. I feel disappointed whenever I hear that a community hasn't got a habit, as I think that habits do matter. But I would never start assuming that non-habited communities are composed of 'bitter old women who want to be priests'. That's not fair.

[praying4carmel]

Thanks CA!

[alicemary]

Thank you Nancy you are so right. I rarely post on phatmass anymore because of the lack of charity practiced by the people who profess they want to be nuns. It is their way or the highway, and thanks so much, I chose the highway.
Communities that wear the full habits, have the structure don't want anyone over the age of 30 entering them. So does that mean that because I am in my 50's, I should just shrivel up and die?
I have known many wonderful nuns, and have had the honor of living with them for a portion of my life. I have learned that externals are just that, it is what is inside that matters. I do not want to be a priest, but no thank you, I do not want to wear a full habit either. I love the Dominican habit, like that worn by the Summit Dominicans. But I am ok with a community who choses not to wear one.
Please dont respond with unpleasantness. We have a right to air our views too.
alicemary

[stlmom]

Hello Nancy,
I drop in and post every now and then, even though I am a married babyboomer type. As a Catholic laywoman, I am grateful to those who give their lives in the service of the church, and I feel this forum gives us a window on the world of those who are looking to find their vocation. Not everyone feels the need to tell their vocation stories on line, but I do encourage it, if for no other reason to demonstrate the depth and breadth that we have in religious life in this country. So I am a bit sad to hear that some are reluctant to discuss their search for fear of criticism.
It is also apparent that periodically discussions follow the superficial and trivial,as evidenced by many of the polls on this thread. We may be treated to picture galleries that pique our curiosity, but don't add a whole lot to the substance of the subject of discernment. However, this is a public forum, with contributors of many ages, primarily young, with varied degrees of understanding of what religious life is all about. The discussions about the habit are useful, but I agree there is so much more. Thank God for the religious who do post and give us the straight scoop on religious life!
I wholeheartedly agree with your statement that we "oldsters" have a seasoned perspective that is born from years of learning and struggling with the crosses in our lives. I am glad for those who have the capacity to pursue their delayed vocations and who are able to find a home in a less traditional but still prayerful faithful and dedicated religious community.
Have a blessed Easter, and keep on posting. There are friendly listeners out here!

[Marieteresa]

I just wanted to say thank you to praying4carmel and all the rest for voicing their opinions. It is good to hear a different opinion on the matter. When I look back through my discernment I see the reason why I formed my opinion against communities who are not habited based on experiences with sisters without habits. It is also possible that some of us are biased against non habited sisters due to the media. When you see or read about sisters in lay clothes protesting, demanding to become priests and who may engage in new age practices it makes one biased against them. Is this bias just? Probably not, each community should be based on its own practices. Then in contrast when you see a habited sister teaching, praying or nursing the sick one thinks that habited is the way to go. Its hard getting away from the way the media portrays certain groups. Anyway, Thanks again for voicing your opinion and I hope that you are not afraid of voicing your opinion more in the future.

[Gemma]

Even I winced when I read that. A bit overboard, I have to say.

We need to change the vocabulary, though. "Heterodox" is the more appropriate term. "Liberal" is political.

I've already told discerners that if they are feeling called to a community considered heterodox, I will point out where the lack of orthodoxy lies, and let them go from there. Many heterodox communities are receiving vocations, but they are usually the "young fogeys" who will bring them back to orthodoxy.

The albatross-around-the-neck where heterodox communities are concerned is the SPIRIT OF THE ORIGIN of the changes they made after VatII. The changes can be directly tied to radical feminists who got into control.

Discerners don't want that. They want the Church.

I will say this until I'm blue in the face--be careful about heterodox communities. One of the external signs of such is the lack of a habit. However, I know that two or three charisms were founded without the habit. I know there are vocations being called to these communities.

I'm sitting here with the stats--orthodox communities are getting the vocations. The heterodox communities are getting a trickle of vocations. The discerners are coming here to us and complaining to us about the heterodox communities. I'm not making up any of my objections.

I am working with a few vocations who are discerning heterodox communities. I'm not getting in their way. We will support them in their discernment journey.

I hope this explains, somewhat, my position on the matter. I also think it somewhat uncharitable for PMers to harass those who are discerning non-habited orders. God answers knee mail, it it bothers them that much.

Blessings,
Gemma

[TotusTuusMaria]

JMJ

I am sorry to hear that some are feeling as if they will be criticized if they talk about their discernment with certain communities, specifically those that do not wear a habit. That is sad, indeed.

I hope from now on those that are feeling unwelcome to share no longer feel that way.

[TradMom]

Praised be Jesus Christ!
It is a very sad day indeed when I look at this board and see posts from women feeling "less than" because they are discerning with communities that don't wear habits.
If only donning a habit had the ability to make one holy!
Tradmom

[gloriagurl]

[quote name='Gemma' date='Mar 19 2008, 05:45 PM' post='1480221']
Even I winced when I read that. A bit overboard, I have to say.

I think I might go so far as to say that the blogger went WAY overboard. It seems to me that blogging can often be the ultimate ego trip. It certainly is the forum for it. The blogger can say whatever he/she likes, whenever he/she likes......and can choose to act with very little discernment, very little decorum, seriously compromised boundaries, very little courtesy, very little charity.

One can never know a community without a good deal of discernment with that community....even then in terms of a cloistered community you won't fully know them until you are inside that cloister wall. That's what formation is for, for the community and those being formed to get to know each other so that proper discernment can take place.

I personally know someone who discerned with a very observant (according to Carmel's tradition and rule) community (and trust me, my friend knows OBSERVANT) who did not typically wear the habit, but did reserve that right to those who wanted to do so on feasts or holy days. One can certainly have/express an opinion about that...and I'm sure there are lots out there.....but to base an opinion SOLEY on that point is at best unwise and at worst, uncharitable. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.....gave it back....that kind of judging wasn't worth losing my soul for. Now while I may not choose an "unhabited" community for myself, I would certainly not force my choice on anyone else.

I've said it before and will say it again, especially in terms of the more monastic signs....habits, processions, chanting, Latin, bowing, silence etc.....these things are not virtues themselves but rather they point to the virtue. We could all use a little "point" in the right direction now and again.

And as if this post wasn't long enough already.....as long as we're expressing opinions there is something I've wanted to express concerning discernment by individuals later in their life. First of all....to those who are discerning as "older vocations" I want to say - I HEAR YOU - if the traditional (and in this case that may very well mean, habited) communities won't have you, where else can you go? It's utterly unkind to leave a person out and then blame that person for going somewhere else.....like teenagers who don't invite everyone in the class to a party and then gossip about the uninvited for having their own party. SILLY, at best.

Secondly I have grown weary of the term "delayed vocation" - another judgment with little knowledge or discernment - who is to say someone else's vocation is DELAYED - perhaps it's right on time. Perhaps the Holy Spirit really does "blow where He will"? Is that even a possibility? I am from the Church generation that experienced the "grand exit" of people (especially women) from religious orders. I personally know SEVERAL women who expressed the desire for religious life at a young age and were told "flat out" - DON'T DO IT...CAN'T YOU SEE EVERYONE IS LEAVING...WOMEN CAN DO ANYTHING THEY WANT NOW.....GO OUT AND GET A REAL CAREER...THERE ISN'T GOING TO BE RELIGOUS LIFE FOR WOMEN SOON. So, out they went, listening to their "superiors" - those who "knew" and were responsible for their souls....these women did a variety of things only to find out later they they really did know the voice of God in their hearts...and now their task was to change their life and live their vocation. There's nothing DELAYED about that at all....BETRAYED might be a better word. Many, MANY of these sincere, faithful women are now inexorably caught in the middle. You may be quite certain some of them are bitter....that happens when one is betrayed by someone they trusted. We owe them kindness, not judgment.

The young among us here have no real relationship to the attitudes I'm speaking of. For YEARS no one in our churches even spoke of vocations...where the heck was a woman supposed to gain encouragement and knowledge from? I realize there is still very little talk of vocations in most parishes but we now have the internet. A woman during the time I'm speaking of had no access to communities like there is today. No blogs or vocation web sites to stand in contrast to what she was being told. The only witnesses to the life that she would most likely see were those who had left the life. She took the word of priests and religious and lived her life - some of it in great sadness...now only to find that even though the doors have now "swung open", they are, in most cases, still not open to her. How terribly sad for all of use. The body can not betray even one of its members without betraying itself.

Do not get me wrong. I love the young, fresh faces of some of our "newly revived" or recently founded communities. One of the most dear young women I know - when I first knew of her existence she was still growing in her Mamma - is a Nashville Dominican. She claims that I was a big part of her vocation, that my own story stood as an encouraging witness to her. She has had my encouragement (and the encouragement of her family) for all of her 20 something years. She should have it. She deserves it as a blessed child of God. We all do, but not all of us got it.

Let's have some compassion. Let's realize that some women have very few choices when choosing a community. Let's bless them and pray for them and as a "body", perhaps even ask for their forgiveness....but for heaven's sake, no matter what else we do, let's stop judging them and their vocations according to some standard that simply doesn't apply to them.

And one more thing before I end......does anyone ever wonder why there are so few discussions on what men wear and don't wear?

[By His Grace Alone]

[quote name='alicemary' post='1480206' date='Mar 19 2008, 05:15 PM']Thank you Nancy you are so right. I rarely post on phatmass anymore because of the lack of charity practiced by the people who profess they want to be nuns. It is their way or the highway, and thanks so much, I chose the highway.
Communities that wear the full habits, have the structure don't want anyone over the age of 30 entering them. So does that mean that because I am in my 50's, I should just shrivel up and die?
I have known many wonderful nuns, and have had the honor of living with them for a portion of my life. I have learned that externals are just that, it is what is inside that matters. I do not want to be a priest, but no thank you, I do not want to wear a full habit either. I love the Dominican habit, like that worn by the Summit Dominicans. But I am ok with a community who choses not to wear one.
Please dont respond with unpleasantness. We have a right to air our views too.
alicemary[/quote]

Amen. You're comments are spot on. Thank you for having the courage to voice them, especially on this forum.

[By His Grace Alone]

[quote name='gloriagurl' post='1480256' date='Mar 19 2008, 07:15 PM']Even I winced when I read that. A bit overboard, I have to say.

I think I might go so far as to say that the blogger went WAY overboard. It seems to me that blogging can often be the ultimate ego trip. It certainly is the forum for it. The blogger can say whatever he/she likes, whenever he/she likes......and can choose to act with very little discernment, very little decorum, seriously compromised boundaries, very little courtesy, very little charity.

One can never know a community without a good deal of discernment with that community....even then in terms of a cloistered community you won't fully know them until you are inside that cloister wall. That's what formation is for, for the community and those being formed to get to know each other so that proper discernment can take place.

I personally know someone who discerned with a very observant (according to Carmel's tradition and rule) community (and trust me, my friend knows OBSERVANT) who did not typically wear the habit, but did reserve that right to those who wanted to do so on feasts or holy days. One can certainly have/express an opinion about that...and I'm sure there are lots out there.....but to base an opinion SOLEY on that point is at best unwise and at worst, uncharitable. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.....gave it back....that kind of judging wasn't worth losing my soul for. Now while I may not choose an "unhabited" community for myself, I would certainly not force my choice on anyone else.

I've said it before and will say it again, especially in terms of the more monastic signs....habits, processions, chanting, Latin, bowing, silence etc.....these things are not virtues themselves but rather they point to the virtue. We could all use a little "point" in the right direction now and again.

And as if this post wasn't long enough already.....as long as we're expressing opinions there is something I've wanted to express concerning discernment by individuals later in their life. First of all....to those who are discerning as "older vocations" I want to say - I HEAR YOU - if the traditional (and in this case that may very well mean, habited) communities won't have you, where else can you go? It's utterly unkind to leave a person out and then blame that person for going somewhere else.....like teenagers who don't invite everyone in the class to a party and then gossip about the uninvited for having their own party. SILLY, at best.

Secondly I have grown weary of the term "delayed vocation" - another judgment with little knowledge or discernment - who is to say someone else's vocation is DELAYED - perhaps it's right on time. Perhaps the Holy Spirit really does "blow where He will"? Is that even a possibility? I am from the Church generation that experienced the "grand exit" of people (especially women) from religious orders. I personally know SEVERAL women who expressed the desire for religious life at a young age and were told "flat out" - DON'T DO IT...CAN'T YOU SEE EVERYONE IS LEAVING...WOMEN CAN DO ANYTHING THEY WANT NOW.....GO OUT AND GET A REAL CAREER...THERE ISN'T GOING TO BE RELIGOUS LIFE FOR WOMEN SOON. So, out they went, listening to their "superiors" - those who "knew" and were responsible for their souls....these women did a variety of things only to find out later they they really did know the voice of God in their hearts...and now their task was to change their life and live their vocation. There's nothing DELAYED about that at all....BETRAYED might be a better word. Many, MANY of these sincere, faithful women are now inexorably caught in the middle. You may be quite certain some of them are bitter....that happens when one is betrayed by someone they trusted. We owe them kindness, not judgment.

The young among us here have no real relationship to the attitudes I'm speaking of. For YEARS no one in our churches even spoke of vocations...where the heck was a woman supposed to gain encouragement and knowledge from? I realize there is still very little talk of vocations in most parishes but we now have the internet. A woman during the time I'm speaking of had no access to communities like there is today. No blogs or vocation web sites to stand in contrast to what she was being told. The only witnesses to the life that she would most likely see were those who had left the life. She took the word of priests and religious and lived her life - some of it in great sadness...now only to find that even though the doors have now "swung open", they are, in most cases, still not open to her. How terribly sad for all of use. The body can not betray even one of its members without betraying itself.

Do not get me wrong. I love the young, fresh faces of some of our "newly revived" or recently founded communities. One of the most dear young women I know - when I first knew of her existence she was still growing in her Mamma - is a Nashville Dominican. She claims that I was a big part of her vocation, that my own story stood as an encouraging witness to her. She has had my encouragement (and the encouragement of her family) for all of her 20 something years. She should have it. She deserves it as a blessed child of God. We all do, but not all of us got it.

Let's have some compassion. Let's realize that some women have very few choices when choosing a community. Let's bless them and pray for them and as a "body", perhaps even ask for their forgiveness....but for heaven's sake, no matter what else we do, let's stop judging them and their vocations according to some standard that simply doesn't apply to them.

And one more thing before I end......does anyone ever wonder why there are so few discussions on what men wear and don't wear?[/quote]

Very well said and so very accurate. Still, I expect someone to chime in and launch a dissertation completely without any relevant comparative statistics to base their statements on as to why anyone over 30 or 35 simply will not persevere, but thanks for trying.

[Guadalupe23]

It is funny, Praying4Carmel, that you brought this topic up! I literally just got finished watching a vocation video about a Benedictine congregation that is contemplative/monastic. Their sisters do not typically wear a habit and as I watched the video I was struck by their spirit rather than their appearance. They follow a very monastic horarium and they follow the rule of St. Benedict. The sisters that spoke were very spiritual and they spoke quite beautifully of their love of God through the life lived in community. That was really awesome.
I personally find much meaning in wearing a habit and feel called to live in a community that does wear one. But, as mentioned before, it is NOT THE END IN ITSELF! Love of God is! How you feel called to love and serve God perfectly is a personal call.
Remember Mother Teresa? Who would have called a common day sari a habit? But that's what God directed her to wear....and in the end, it is not what she is most remembered for! Peace!

[csj]

[quote name='Gemma' post='1480221' date='Mar 19 2008, 04:45 PM']We need to change the vocabulary, though. "Heterodox" is the more appropriate term. "Liberal" is political.


Blessings,
Gemma[/quote]


I am done with this forum. It is beyond my belief that women and men discerning where God is calling them are spending more time judging communities to which they are not called then being attentive to God's call in their own life. Then when one person has the courage to speak up about it, the response is to call communities who are in full communion with the church Heterodox?

As a religious woman, I have tried to stay charitable and only answer posts that I felt I my own discernment story may be helpful and not get involved in these immature habit/non-habit debates. But this has sunk to a level that I can no longer bear to read.

For those of you discerning your call in life, my prayers are with you. For those of you here for other purposes, my prayers are also with you.

Peace to you all,
S. Lynn

[Sister Rose Therese]

You know, I don't know whether this is a valid statement of the times but it sure seems that people are polarizing so much. There is such an extreme difference in opinions these days and there doesn't seem to be anything in the middle.
It seems to be happening in religion as a whole and in politics.
I don't know, maybe this isn't something new, but it seems to me to be building.

With regard to the habit, it seems that people have taken the most visible sign, for religious a traditional habit, modified habit or no habit, and then just automatically assigned them their personal level of holiness.